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Discussion and Debate
Discussion and Debate
Ethics & Morality
Where is the Objective Morality?
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<blockquote data-quote="NotreDame" data-source="post: 76473530" data-attributes="member: 212558"><p>I will address the above and subsequently address the remainder of your post at a later time. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The above is not a deduction based on what I said. The above is contrary to and inconsistent with what I said. </p><p></p><p>I previously said, “objective, where objective refers to a state of affairs that exist, is factual, reality, without regard to us, our existence, and our thoughts.” </p><p></p><p>So, an object tossed up in the air on the rather will A) fallback toward earth at a rate of 9.8 meters per second squared. That is “objective” reality, objective truth. This will occur without any human being on the planet. This occurrence exists independently of our existence. Hence, it is objective. </p><p></p><p>Objective: “not influenced by personal feelings or opinions; considering only facts…existing outside the mind; based on facts that can be proved</p><p> • objective reality”</p><p></p><p>Subjective is that which doesn’t exist or occur independently of us and our thoughts. Moral and value judgments likely fall into this category. Unlike gravity causing an object to fall to earth at a certain rate, there’s nothing we can observe or test, independently of our existence, that declares X is morally valuable, morally reprehensible, or morally acceptable. </p><p></p><p>So, no, objective reality exists independently of us precisely and exactly because objective realtity isn’t dependent on us or our thoughts. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You find this study persuasive? </p><p></p><p>The baby isn’t a tabula rasa at 6 months to ten months, which was the range of study. The baby has been exposed to, on a daily basis, from birth to 10 months, to a wide range of human behaviors and interactions. Such as parents, adults, siblings, and sitters yelling “no” when they do not want the baby to act some way, saying “yes” to approve of behaviors, observing the parent, sibling, or adult helping the baby with a host of activities, such as washing them, changing their clothing, diaper, wiping them, feeding them, rocking them, essentially the baby from birth to ten months have personally experienced and witnessed a wide range of behaviors that can influence the study. They controlled for this how exactly?</p><p></p><p>For example, the article states they “used the ability to differentiate between <strong>unhelpful and helpful behavior</strong> as their indicator of moral judgement.” Of course, the subjects would be able to so identity such behavior and strongly associate with the behavior positively but not because of any innate, born with morality, but because since birth they have witnessed and experienced help, a lot of help, from adults, as adults fed them when hungry in the middle of the evening and other hours of the day, read to them, sang to them, bathed them, changed their diapers, wiped their butts, dressed them, rocked them, burped them, etcetera. Infants from birth to ten months spend their entire lives during that span being helpless and receiving inordinate amounts of help by adults. So, it is no surprise 80% pick the “helpful” behavior, they know it when they see it because they have seen and received copious amounts of <strong>helpful</strong> behavior.</p><p></p><p>In one experiment “the babies were shown a toy dog puppet attempting to open a box, with a friendly teddy bear helping the dog, and an unfriendly teddy thwarting his efforts by sitting on him. After watching at least half a dozen times the babies were given the opportunity to choose one of the teddy bears. The majority chose the helpful teddy.” In another experiment, “A red ball attempts to climb a hill and is aided at times by a yellow triangle that helps it up the hill by getting behind it and pushing. At other times the red ball is forced back down the hill by a blue square. After watching the puppet show at least six times the babies were asked to choose a character. An overwhelming majority (over 80%) chose the helpful figure.”</p><p></p><p>Now, the “friendly teddy” and helpful “yellow triangle” resembles the adults and others in their lives who help the subjects on a daily basis and, shocker, they develop an attachment and liking for the people in their lives who help them by feeding them, bathing them, getting them something to drink, getting them dressed, tending to their daily needs that are so voluminous as to exhaust parents and others. </p><p></p><p>So, it’s no surprise the study subjects pick the helpful entity, as their entire life to that point has been daily, copious amounts of helpful behaviors showered upon them. </p><p></p><p>The study has other issues. </p><p></p><p>The study’s author(s) assigned moral significance to helpful behavior. That’s a problem don’t ya think? They’ve assigned a moral value to their study, and did so in a binary fashion, such that there’s <strong>only</strong> two choices, that of A which is morally positive behavior, or B which is not, with morally approved behavior baked into the study.</p><p></p><p>But what makes the “helpful” or “unhelpful” conduct in the study moral or immoral? It’s either one because the author says so? The study has a decent shot of finding what it’s looking for because it’s already baked into the study by the study authors assigning moral values. That never occurred to you to be a serious issue that hits at the integrity of the study? </p><p></p><p>At best this study has baked into it someone’s subjective belief of moral and immoral value judgments assigned to helpful and unhelpful behavior in which 6 to 10 month olds can identify and distinguish helpful from unhelpful as their existence to that point is accurately characterized as an inundation of helpful behaviors showered upon them, which supports the idea the results aren’t a result of any innate, objectivity morality, but a bias towards it based on the authors moral judgments in the study and the subjects heavy exposure to that behavior rendered moral by the authors. </p><p></p><p>“Prof. Bloom said it was not a subtle statistical trend as “just about all the babies reached for the good guy.”</p><p></p><p>Oh, okay, so it’s the “good guy” because he said so? Oh no, wait, the “helpful” guy was the one pushing and he’s the “good guy” but based on what, the professor saying so? There is a “good guy” baked into the study but what makes the “good guy” in the study “good”? </p><p></p><p>And the article was thoughtful enough to disclose some of the criticism of the study. “Other psychologists have cautioned that <strong>adult assumptions</strong> can affect how babies’ reactions are interpreted, and that <a href="https://medicalxpress.com/tags/babies/" target="_blank">babies</a> begin to learn from the moment they are born.” </p><p></p><p>Despite the anemic attention to the criticism, the criticism is compelling because the study has baked into “adult assumptions” that “interpret” the “reactions” and “babies begin to learn from the moment they are born,” including that which is helpful behaviors. </p><p></p><p>The study is flawed.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="NotreDame, post: 76473530, member: 212558"] I will address the above and subsequently address the remainder of your post at a later time. The above is not a deduction based on what I said. The above is contrary to and inconsistent with what I said. I previously said, “objective, where objective refers to a state of affairs that exist, is factual, reality, without regard to us, our existence, and our thoughts.” So, an object tossed up in the air on the rather will A) fallback toward earth at a rate of 9.8 meters per second squared. That is “objective” reality, objective truth. This will occur without any human being on the planet. This occurrence exists independently of our existence. Hence, it is objective. Objective: “not influenced by personal feelings or opinions; considering only facts…existing outside the mind; based on facts that can be proved • objective reality” Subjective is that which doesn’t exist or occur independently of us and our thoughts. Moral and value judgments likely fall into this category. Unlike gravity causing an object to fall to earth at a certain rate, there’s nothing we can observe or test, independently of our existence, that declares X is morally valuable, morally reprehensible, or morally acceptable. So, no, objective reality exists independently of us precisely and exactly because objective realtity isn’t dependent on us or our thoughts. You find this study persuasive? The baby isn’t a tabula rasa at 6 months to ten months, which was the range of study. The baby has been exposed to, on a daily basis, from birth to 10 months, to a wide range of human behaviors and interactions. Such as parents, adults, siblings, and sitters yelling “no” when they do not want the baby to act some way, saying “yes” to approve of behaviors, observing the parent, sibling, or adult helping the baby with a host of activities, such as washing them, changing their clothing, diaper, wiping them, feeding them, rocking them, essentially the baby from birth to ten months have personally experienced and witnessed a wide range of behaviors that can influence the study. They controlled for this how exactly? For example, the article states they “used the ability to differentiate between [B]unhelpful and helpful behavior[/B] as their indicator of moral judgement.” Of course, the subjects would be able to so identity such behavior and strongly associate with the behavior positively but not because of any innate, born with morality, but because since birth they have witnessed and experienced help, a lot of help, from adults, as adults fed them when hungry in the middle of the evening and other hours of the day, read to them, sang to them, bathed them, changed their diapers, wiped their butts, dressed them, rocked them, burped them, etcetera. Infants from birth to ten months spend their entire lives during that span being helpless and receiving inordinate amounts of help by adults. So, it is no surprise 80% pick the “helpful” behavior, they know it when they see it because they have seen and received copious amounts of [B]helpful[/B] behavior. In one experiment “the babies were shown a toy dog puppet attempting to open a box, with a friendly teddy bear helping the dog, and an unfriendly teddy thwarting his efforts by sitting on him. After watching at least half a dozen times the babies were given the opportunity to choose one of the teddy bears. The majority chose the helpful teddy.” In another experiment, “A red ball attempts to climb a hill and is aided at times by a yellow triangle that helps it up the hill by getting behind it and pushing. At other times the red ball is forced back down the hill by a blue square. After watching the puppet show at least six times the babies were asked to choose a character. An overwhelming majority (over 80%) chose the helpful figure.” Now, the “friendly teddy” and helpful “yellow triangle” resembles the adults and others in their lives who help the subjects on a daily basis and, shocker, they develop an attachment and liking for the people in their lives who help them by feeding them, bathing them, getting them something to drink, getting them dressed, tending to their daily needs that are so voluminous as to exhaust parents and others. So, it’s no surprise the study subjects pick the helpful entity, as their entire life to that point has been daily, copious amounts of helpful behaviors showered upon them. The study has other issues. The study’s author(s) assigned moral significance to helpful behavior. That’s a problem don’t ya think? They’ve assigned a moral value to their study, and did so in a binary fashion, such that there’s [B]only[/B] two choices, that of A which is morally positive behavior, or B which is not, with morally approved behavior baked into the study. But what makes the “helpful” or “unhelpful” conduct in the study moral or immoral? It’s either one because the author says so? The study has a decent shot of finding what it’s looking for because it’s already baked into the study by the study authors assigning moral values. That never occurred to you to be a serious issue that hits at the integrity of the study? At best this study has baked into it someone’s subjective belief of moral and immoral value judgments assigned to helpful and unhelpful behavior in which 6 to 10 month olds can identify and distinguish helpful from unhelpful as their existence to that point is accurately characterized as an inundation of helpful behaviors showered upon them, which supports the idea the results aren’t a result of any innate, objectivity morality, but a bias towards it based on the authors moral judgments in the study and the subjects heavy exposure to that behavior rendered moral by the authors. “Prof. Bloom said it was not a subtle statistical trend as “just about all the babies reached for the good guy.” Oh, okay, so it’s the “good guy” because he said so? Oh no, wait, the “helpful” guy was the one pushing and he’s the “good guy” but based on what, the professor saying so? There is a “good guy” baked into the study but what makes the “good guy” in the study “good”? And the article was thoughtful enough to disclose some of the criticism of the study. “Other psychologists have cautioned that [B]adult assumptions[/B] can affect how babies’ reactions are interpreted, and that [URL='https://medicalxpress.com/tags/babies/']babies[/URL] begin to learn from the moment they are born.” Despite the anemic attention to the criticism, the criticism is compelling because the study has baked into “adult assumptions” that “interpret” the “reactions” and “babies begin to learn from the moment they are born,” including that which is helpful behaviors. The study is flawed. [/QUOTE]
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