One cannot quote the whole scripture, which is the true context of every verse ... thus one relies on people having read it and recognising what is being talked about... when it doesn't happen we can go back to referring to verses and if necessary even further to the context and the whole rest of scripture... one cannot do it all-in-one as you claim one can... it has to be sequential, interactive , one comes to learn what the other has not seen yet, but not all at once...
I did not say you had to quote all of Scripture, I said that it would help if you explained and made your claim clear.
That would be one usage of the word 'seeker' , but it is not the meaning of 'Seeeker' as an icon on this site , as distict from denoiminational icons of belief.
Interesting...
I cannot, but the scripture of the saints and prophets can and does ...
They did not generalize by saying that all who claim to be Christians are not repentant, as you have.
If you look at this site you will fnd many peopel taking up stances on cherished beliefs that are easily reproved by several scriptures, yet there almost always are two sides fighting , often with bared claws, to prove they are right and the other wrong... lookin from outside their logic is sometimes unflawed insofar as it can be, but the scripture nevertheless proves they are both wrong .... equally they are wrong morally, because Jesus commanded love, not warfare for one's false faith ... it must eb so for now, but it does not make it right, nor can it be made right yet .. Rev 13:3-8
I could care less why they fight. I could care less if they use ad hominem. That does not mean that all of their arguments are wrong.
All translations have their flaws because they were translated by sinners, who by definition were not baptised of the spirit to know all truth [John 16:13] ... thus one cannot expect unbiased translation... one has to make allowances for that ..
Or look at the culture and the original language...
Logic has led me to be the kind of Christian I am. Logic has led to me interpreting the Bible literally. Logic has led to me following God. Logic does have its limits, but it is not completely useless.
Didn't I say that? I'm confused...
I know of many people who think it is not so ... so 'reasionable doubt' is a subjective measure ... most people seem to believe whatever theythink they want to believe ... many peole say that they believe the bible, but they never ub=nderstood it BEFORE saying that, so how can they believe what they never even understood... it is just something many people say then, to fit in perhaps?
Reasonable doubt is not subjective. Reasonable doubt relies on objective arguments against the opposing side.
there are many books full of highly reasoned doubts about the diverse copies of scripture we have today...
Not reasonable, there is a difference.
we have no original and the additions and mistakes are numbereed in thousands ...
Where are these mistakes? Certainly not in the original language. I've yet to see anyone give evidence- real evidence mind you- that the Bible has mistakes. Just because we do not have the originals does not mean we do not know what they say. We have enough complete copies and fragments of copies to know what the original says.
that even before one notces that there is almost no proof left that Jesus ever even existed ,outside scripture...
There is plenty to provide legal proof to Jesus' existence:
[FONT="]Josephus, in two different places (97 AD):
"Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the Sanhedrim of judges and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whos name was James"
Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
Tacitus (AD 120):
Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abomination, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from who the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and harmful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.
Lucian (early 100's AD):
The Christians, you know, worship a man to this daythe distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account
You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
many doubt that the few documents that we have in scripture are reasionable proof since they disagree in so many ways , so many details ...who is to say that their doubts are not reasonable?
The age-old contradiction claim...
http://foru.ms/t6255221-contradictions-in-the-bible.html
Post them there if you think you have any. There are 66 books to the Bible, that is not few documents, that is plenty.
Who says their doubts are not reasonable? Plenty of people. Craig Blomberg (
The Historical Reliability of the Gospels) would be one.
The Holy Spirit reveals truth, which is why we need workers in the field for the Holy Spirit to use. That's not to say He can't work without us, but Jesus does ask that we pray for workers.
I think that was another one by me...
The holy sprit of God moves men to do His works , but none can do them as sinners :-
Then I cannot do God's works, and neither can anyone else, and therefore are unable to get to heaven.
2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Your point? We cannot be perfect?
Iniquity:
G93
ἀδικία
adikia
Thayer Definition:
1) injustice, of a judge
2) unrighteousness of heart and life
3) a deed violating law and justice, act of unrighteousness
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayers/Strongs Number: from G94
That's not talking about simple slips...
Furthemore God requires only a few to do the work of finding the remannat of the lost House of Israel in this world , it is simply a task for the few saints in order for them to perfect their love... sinners cannot help, but can and do get in the way, that is the point in trial of the saints by fire that perfects their love... thus sinners do not even know what they are doing as false apostles, God required them not to know for now :-
Backing?
2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Context? It's not talking about all Christians....
Following Christ is something for the saints only in this life, one cannot make oneself a saint , God has chosen the few who will find thgat narrow strait way, He requires but a few for His perfected priesthood in the kingdom.. we cannot all be kings else there would be no-one to rule ad to minister to... few sinners become saints and all those who do are listed in scripture, few are thus saved from sin by grace, as the new covenant indicates, only those whose fatyhers broke the old covenant with israel [Heb 8:8-9] ... thus if one is not either a Jew or of the lost House of Israel [pagnised, living as gentiles now for some three millenia] then one is not going to be saved at Jesus'return, but much later [Rev 7:9-10]
Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, He says, "BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
Heb 8:9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 "FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 "AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 "FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
Rev 7:10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."
How do either of those point to what you say they do? How do either of those back your claims?
Like I pointed out above mostly both sides 'lose' in debates, because they are not even trying to see the other's points and put the whole together to find the truth, just trying vainly to show they are right without all truth from God first ...
Just because one does not debate for the right reasons does not mean their arguments are invalid.
Thus 'respect' from saints for all emn comes from humility before God , from love ... not from any sense that this is the least required by proper debate ...
And?
For myself I love arguing with God because he ALWAYS wins and I learn from 'losing' the debate... it would be easier simply to never get involved in sin and so end up not acknowledging all that is right, all god's truth, but that is not the way of anyone but Jesus, even the saints were sinners at first...
Fun.
There is so much going on in the world today, that we as a body have seem to have forgotten the greatest commandment. The Lord said to love one another, more and more i see people arguing or fighting in the name of the Lord then correcting in love. I have to bring this up because it weighs on my heart. Everyone tells me you cannot expect everyone to be kind and the way you want them to be. I understand people are going to be the way they are, but if you love God and know him why or how can a person not want to help another, or help another or whatever the case may be. What input does everyone have on this subject. There is more I see it in church, in the preachers, ect.. People will push others away with judgement, or so called discernment. .
