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Where is the love for the people in suffering?

smaneck

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And how does your statement answer to what I said? Habitat for Humanity (HfH) is an NGO. When they build a house in Ecuador for example, paying for materials and for work $US 50,000 and sell it to poor people for $US 5,000 they don't have to consider what president Carter said.

it may well be it operates differently in Ecuador than it does in the US.

Can you please provide some indications (web links for example) to back up this claim? Who was paying the money for the "too big to fail" (TARP) program for example?

Not the poor. If you are below a certain income level not only do you not pay federal income tax but you get earned income credit. I did the taxes for a family who got $3000 more than what they paid in federal income tax. 43% of Americans pay no federal income tax. They do pay payroll taxes but that goes to fund their Social Security and Medicare benefits. None of it went to TARP.
As for websites, here is one:
http://www.businessinsider.com/43-of-americans-dont-pay-federal-income-tax-2013-9

That's not how you reach other people. UN has a high degree of bureaucracy and I've never heard of the UN working with any country to implement land reforms in order to allow the poor people to become small farmers and I've never heard of the UN trying to do any credible efforts to help the small farmers.

They may not be doing enough but they are doing more than you give them credit for:

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=51358#.VsuUCX0rLIU

By the contrary, the UN represents the will of the powerful Western countries,

That was once the case, it is much less so now. While powerful Western countries still control the Security Council, it is the developing world that has the larger say in the General Assembly. Of course when countries like the US withhold funds from UNESCO that does prevent them from doing much. Whenever we threaten to do that because of a project the US doesn't like, I send them a special contribution.

and the West wants to and also works very hard to remove small farms in the poor countries and to replace them with palm tree plantations, coconut tree plantations, biofuel plantations, and with big farms of inherently inefficient crops like cereals and grains.

I don't think we are encouraging biofuel plantations so much. As for things like Palm tree and coconut plantations the way I've seen it implemented in places like India is not so much with big plantations but rather that farmers are encouraged to grow these trees along with their foodstuffs.

But opening a web forum is a good idea for reaching other people.

If we are going to help small farmers we have to talk to them, not other people on the internet. And small farmers in the developing world don't have internet. You have to go to the villages and consult with the villagers, find out what it is the need, what is working and what doesn't work. Then you figure out to what extent they can get what they need by their own cooperative efforts and to what extent they need outside assistance and how that can best be delivered. It takes a grass roots effort.
 
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smaneck

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Some years ago I've contacted the people at the Occupy Wall Street, to try to start collaborative efforts together.
I am not a communist at all, but I am very enthusiastic about any honest effort to develop collaborative projects like for example cooperatives where the benefits are decently shared between participants.
I was trying to convince them to start cooperatives (for example small farms) in order to grow solutions. In 2012 (How to create democratically run workplaces and communities) and again in 2014 (Why you don't build cooperatives?) but the answers were somewhat less than encouraging, so to speak.

And there is a reason why. Those people know nothing about farming! As I'm sure you know farming in the US is all mechanized. Leftists in the US are largely urbanites with no knowledge of farming and no desire to learn. They might go in for a small garden co-op on a empty lot, but that is as far as it goes.

Mind you that isn't a criticism of them, it is just the way it is. I don't know anything about farming and have no desire to learn. Why would I? The average American spends only 7% of their income on food. If I can buy my chicken (legs and thighs) for 39 cents a pound do you think I'm going to raise chickens? Producing food is the one thing the US is better at than anyone else in the world yet only 2% of our population are farmers.
 
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NewBlizzard

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My rationale for helping others is to make sure I've done everything I can for myself, those close to me, and my community. Beyond that I trust that the various aid agencies; government, churches, or NGO's, will use the money we give them in the wisest way to help foreign peoples.

That said I stand ready to share my experiences with any individual who genuinely wishes to improve their lives.
I hope I am not being rude by saying this but you are completely wrong to trust the government and the NGO's. The Western governments are doing their best disrupt the small businesses in the poor countries and everything the big NGO's (Red Cross, World Food Programme, Oxfam, Habitat for Humanity, Action Aid, World Vision, etc), are doing is in fact to fake aid. The churches just are following the trends created by the big NGO's, and therefore they are mostly just contributing to the same ineffective aid.

They will never implement real solutions unless the people like you will pressure them to do so.
The solutions have to come from the average people like us, not from the super-rich who are sponsoring the politicians who make the governments or the charities.
I don't think it's too much trouble signing petitions for example for asking the governments to stop importing everything from China/Bangladesh/Thailand and to start producing those things locally, so your co-citizens can have jobs. Also for putting embargo against countries who don't respect human rights, in order to pressure them to change. Also for blocking the fiscal paradises. Or for blocking the trade with poor countries who refuse to do land reforms. And so on.
 
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NewBlizzard

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it may well be it operates differently in Ecuador than it does in the US.
That's how I understand that they (Habitat for Humanity - HfH) operate in the poor countries. They actually donate most of the value of the houses. I really wish I will make a charity journal one day, in order to document such activities, and to learn better details about such activities.
Instead of donating (90% of the) houses, HfH should rent them - for very cheap or even for free.
 
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NewBlizzard

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Not the poor. If you are below a certain income level not only do you not pay federal income tax but you get earned income credit. I did the taxes for a family who got $3000 more than what they paid in federal income tax. 43% of Americans pay no federal income tax. They do pay payroll taxes but that goes to fund their Social Security and Medicare benefits. None of it went to TARP.
As for websites, here is one:
http://www.businessinsider.com/43-of-americans-dont-pay-federal-income-tax-2013-9
Thanks for the information. Well if it's not the poor paying the taxes, then it's the average people, or the middle class, because it's completely impossible to believe that the super-rich are paying the taxes that are being used in order to create bail-outs and to save their own big bonuses. They are not growing to the super-rich status by using their own money, they grow super-rich by sucking the blood of the underpaid workers.
Those average citizen are the first to be touched by poverty in times of crisis anyways.
And the poor workers are paying the tax by simply being underpaid. The difference between a decent wage and their low wages are actually a tax and a punishment they have to endure for not having a certain "social status".
Lower wages for the workers mean more income for the companies and consequently more federal tax.

They may not be doing enough but they are doing more than you give them credit for:

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=51358#.VsuUCX0rLIU
Well, sorry if I was too harsh on the Colombian movement named FUNDAEC.
My point is that, first of all, UN is misleading them. The UN is using charitable people like those at FUNDAEC in order to create some marginal research that everyone will forget about in a few years. I bet that in a few years the page you linked will even be deleted from the UN website. I really hope I am wrong, but I'm just doing my best to be realistic.
So, the article is named "Small farmers can be major actors in reducing agriculture's carbon footprint - UN agency" and it starts with "8 July 2015 – Helping farmers adapt to the impacts of climate change can also significantly reduce greenhouse gas emissions, finds a new study released today by one of the agricultural agencies of the United Nations system." Let's see if the article will still be there in 5, 10 or 20 years.
Unlike totalitarian regimes, the Western governments are allowing the relevant reports to surface and they just cover them in irrelevant entertainment. Let's not forget that the establishment people are smart enough to know the masses never respond to truth, so they don't fear its broadcast. They are essentially hiding the truth right out in the open where it's safe.
So what the UN is doing is to distract the people at FUNDAEC, keeping them busy and pretending that they are interested in the topic of small farming just enough to keep the people of FUNDAEC convinced that they are putting their energy to a good use.
And actually it's really easy to see that the UN is misleading the people: The small farms are more efficient than the big farms, except animal and cereal/grains cultures. They are more efficient in fruit and vegetable crops - look at Holland for example - the most efficient agriculture in the world with an average farm size of 18 hectare. So there is not much need to even make such research.
That being said, it remains to be seen if the FUNDAEC people will manage to avoid this trap. Unfortunately, most of the time, such people are not capable to do that.

That was once the case, it is much less so now. While powerful Western countries still control the Security Council, it is the developing world that has the larger say in the General Assembly. Of course when countries like the US withhold funds from UNESCO that does prevent them from doing much. Whenever we threaten to do that because of a project the US doesn't like, I send them a special contribution.
The poor countries have governments made by the corrupt politicians who save their money in the West. And the master in the West is the US. So those corrupt politicians have to listen to the "big brothers" if they want to avoid some some unpleasant asset freezes.
Also, let's not forget that today, the foreign investments decide. John Eatwell, one of the leading specialists in finance at Cambridge University, estimates that, in 1970, about 90% of international capital was used for trade and long-term investment-more or less productive things- and 10% for speculation. By 1990, those figures had reversed: 90% for speculation and 10% for trade and long-term investment.
Also, "the free flow of capital creates what is sometimes called a 'virtual senate' of lenders and investors who carry out a moment-by-moment referendum on government policies, and if they find that they’re irrational, meaning they help people instead of profits, then they vote against them, by capital flight, by tax on the country, and so on. So the democratic governments have a dual constituency, their own population and the virtual senate, who typically prevail. And for the poor, that means regular disaster." - alternative link: chomsky.info
So the UNESCO funding is just a tiny and insignificant piece of the equation.
The reality is that the West is funding and dictating the UN policies and programs.

I don't think we are encouraging biofuel plantations so much. As for things like Palm tree and coconut plantations the way I've seen it implemented in places like India is not so much with big plantations but rather that farmers are encouraged to grow these trees along with their foodstuffs.
I don't know about palm tree plantations in India but in Indonesia and Malaysia there was/is a huge deforestation taking place in order to grow palm trees. Also I've heard stories of big coconut plantations in Africa, growing on displaced small farms, of course.
Have you heard about any country in the developing world which is paying more attention to small farms than to big farms?

If we are going to help small farmers we have to talk to them, not other people on the internet. And small farmers in the developing world don't have internet. You have to go to the villages and consult with the villagers, find out what it is the need, what is working and what doesn't work. Then you figure out to what extent they can get what they need by their own cooperative efforts and to what extent they need outside assistance and how that can best be delivered. It takes a grass roots effort.
The farmers who live in villages should have internet. They can have their own associations and connect to the internet at the office of the association. They simply can't afford to stay disconnected in today's world. Also, in 2011, half of Africa's one billion population had a mobile phone - many of them can also carry internet too.
Of course every community has specific needs, some lands are more suitable for crop X and not for crop Y, cultural matters have to be taken into account and so on.
However, what they need most is land, and after land, they need real free markets. I (and anyone else) can tell that without visiting them. In the West, the farmer can buy tools and milling services for cheap. In Africa, they have to buy everything overpriced, because the lack of the free market and that's because of the corrupt politicians.
The average villager can't produce tools or build a windmill because the corrupt politicians won't give them a licence. Instead the corrupt politician (e.g. the mayor) will give the licence only to a select number of companies belonging to his family members. In the poor countries, the blood sucking mechanisms are very few, very rudimentary and therefore very easy to understand.
Those corrupt African politicians save their money and buy assets in the West. So it's our duty to freeze that wealth and to pressure them in order to allow their farmers to make a decent living.
After doing that and after teaching the small farmers such basics, and after teaching them how to stay connected and learn more relevant information, of course, we have to encourage them to come with solution adapted to their local particularities.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I hope I am not being rude by saying this but you are completely wrong to trust the government and the NGO's. The Western governments are doing their best disrupt the small businesses in the poor countries and everything the big NGO's (Red Cross, World Food Programme, Oxfam, Habitat for Humanity, Action Aid, World Vision, etc), are doing is in fact to fake aid. The churches just are following the trends created by the big NGO's, and therefore they are mostly just contributing to the same ineffective aid.

They've already got my money. I'm not going to "throw good money after bad". It's their responsibility to spend it properly.

They will never implement real solutions unless the people like you will pressure them to do so.
The solutions have to come from the average people like us, not from the super-rich who are sponsoring the politicians who make the governments or the charities.

As I said I have the solutions, but no one is interested in them.

I don't think it's too much trouble signing petitions for example for asking the governments to stop importing everything from China/Bangladesh/Thailand and to start producing those things locally, so your co-citizens can have jobs. Also for putting embargo against countries who don't respect human rights, in order to pressure them to change. Also for blocking the fiscal paradises. Or for blocking the trade with poor countries who refuse to do land reforms. And so on.

Actually it is too much trouble. I'm a pretty busy man. Let those who are being paid (by the rest of us) to do the charity work get busy and do it.
 
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NewBlizzard

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And there is a reason why. Those people know nothing about farming! As I'm sure you know farming in the US is all mechanized. Leftists in the US are largely urbanites with no knowledge of farming and no desire to learn. They might go in for a small garden co-op on a empty lot, but that is as far as it goes.

Mind you that isn't a criticism of them, it is just the way it is. I don't know anything about farming and have no desire to learn. Why would I? The average American spends only 7% of their income on food. If I can buy my chicken (legs and thighs) for 39 cents a pound do you think I'm going to raise chickens? Producing food is the one thing the US is better at than anyone else in the world yet only 2% of our population are farmers.
My point was to build cooperatives, it wasn't to make only farms, that was just an idea. My point was that, since they (the Occupy Wall Street supporters) are inclined towards communism or at least towards the political left, therefore they should start cooperatives by themselves. Producing food, tools or whatever else. In my 2014 message I said "If it's too expensive to start workplaces, at least we can start various activities that don't involve any money (..) we can even clean the street together".
There are a lot of cooperatives in the West in general and in the USA in particular. It's extremely strange to see that the most vocal leftist people actually can't bother to create cooperatives, like other, anonymous people (maybe not even leftists), can. This again is a good proof for me that, in this world, "activism" means in fact, most of the time, "wasting time to deliver empty words". Too bad, so sad.

There are compelling reasons to learn about agriculture, especially for those promoting a system change like the people at OWS: without understanding the agriculture and it's economics (which are really simple and fascinating topics anyways), they can't have any clue about how economy works, and they can't have any clue about how to implement a functional system in the poor countries. After all, we all work because we trade the goods and services we produce in order to be able to buy food, which is produced by agricultural farms.

Now, speaking about the efficiency in agriculture, I don't have all the data about the USA so I will come with the UK data:
Total agricultural area: 18.4 million hectares
Grassland: 12.3 million hectares
Crops: 4.6 million hectares
From the total of 4.6 million hectares for crops, actually only 0.2 million hectares are used to grow fruits and vegetables. The rest (4.4 million hectares) is dedicated to growing cereals.

More or less, there are the same proportions in the US. Only a tiny tiny fraction of the land is dedicated to horticulture and the rest is dedicated to producing meat and cereals and grains, which are not even a good dietary choice.
The big farms are more efficient in growing what we don't need really to eat. And the small farms are in fact more efficient in horticulture (fruits and vegetables).

Now, in countries with huge poverty and corruption issues, the solutions begin with the small farms. They don't have much industry anyways. The big farms (and the big corporations in general) are paying miserable wages to workers and pay almost no taxes at all, devastating the life of the majority of the people. So the big farms are the anti-solution and the real solution stands is in the small farms. With increasing poverty and corruption in the West, this topic is becoming more and more important, even here in the West.
 
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NewBlizzard

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They've already got my money. I'm not going to "throw good money after bad". It's their responsibility to spend it properly.
The likes of Mr. Rockefeller or Mr. Rotschild who are behind the biggest charities are making sure to hire only people with no sense of responsibility whatsoever.
Such people would rather support criminals to take newborns and hit their heads on walls until they die, if their parents do not agree to be their slaves. Guatemalan civil war is an outstanding example. They are not really charitable people.

As I said I have the solutions, but no one is interested in them.
I am very much interested to know them. I came here asking the people to start debates on the topic in the first place, my main point is to connect people in order to communicate, so I would be grateful if you tell me your opinions about the real solutions. I will debate them only if you allow me to - if you want, I can just read them and make no comment at all.

Actually it is too much trouble. I'm a pretty busy man. Let those who are being paid (by the rest of us) to do the charity work get busy and do it.
That's because the system keeps you (and me, and almost everyone else) busy. Most of the time with completely irrelevant activities.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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The likes of Mr. Rockefeller or Mr. Rotschild who are behind the biggest charities are making sure to hire only people with no sense of responsibility whatsoever.
Such people would rather support criminals to take newborns and hit their heads on walls until they die, if their parents do not agree to be their slaves. Guatemalan civil war is an outstanding example. They are not really charitable people.

But they have the resources, and therefore they can make the decisions.

am very much interested to know them. I came here asking the people to start debates on the topic in the first place, my main point is to connect people in order to communicate, so I would be grateful if you tell me your opinions about the real solutions. I will debate them only if you allow me to - if you want, I can just read them and make no comment at all.

My solution is for everyone to do the right thing in whatever they do. I have set the example, it's up to others to follow my example. That said dozens of people have witnessed how I do things over many years and not one has gotten the message. So there it is. If my example can't change those closest to me what chance would preaching to the multitudes do? I'm not going to "cast my pearls before swine".
 
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joshua 1 9

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Hello everyone,

I think that helping the people in need is absolutely the normal thing to do for Christians, and for the religious people in general. I'm not sure if the Bible is specifically asking to help those in need, but at least Jesus was helping the people who were in suffering, and I think that the Christians are supposed to follow his example.

Many times I realize that most of the problems in this world can be easily solved if some groups of people would try to really help those in need. Most of the time I see governments, charities and religious organizations coming with some relief for those in trouble, but they are never coming with some genuine solutions.

These are a few things that the charitable people (especially those living in the West) can do for those in need:
- Instead of giving free food to the poor and unemployed, they can buy land and rent the land to the poor for very cheap, so the land will give a job to those people.
- Instead of giving free houses to the poor, they can rent cheap housing to the poor, so the poor won't be easy prey for the real estate speculators, having no money left to buy food after paying their rents.
- Instead of sending free food to African countries, they should pressure the African governments to make land reforms and to give land to the poor, so the land will give jobs to those poor people. This is what the government of (capitalist) Taiwan did in 1950's, to great success. Or better, the governments should rent the land to the poor.

I understand that the governments represent the interests of the rich and especially of the super-rich, and not the interests of their people. I also do understand that the biggest charities are not created by grassroots movements, they do not represent the people and those charities are in fact created by the super-rich people, the same people who are making money from slavery, exploitation, war, and a lot of human misery.
So I understand why they act like that.

But what about religious communities? Why aren't they significantly different? I would gladly and generously support projects that come with real solutions, with both time and money, but I can't find such projects, not even in religious communities.

Why do you think is that?

If there is a God, I don't think that God is somehow dumb - by the contrary, he can properly judge people. He can clearly see how honest the everyone is when they help others and when they just claim they want to help others.

I am trying to do my best to make sure that I am as clean as possible in face of such a judgement - no matter it comes from God or from other people or from my own consciousness. I am trying to find and to create such projects that come with real solutions for the people in need. I'm already involved into many things that I'm not going to enumerate them in this post.

So I would like to ask as many people as I can reach to try to participate into creating projects that come with solutions for the people in need. It doesn't matter who creates and manages those projects. I want to participate and I want to call others to participate. And I dare to say that I think that every religious person should do that too. Because God is not stupid for sure. He can see if a person really has a hearth for the poor or just pretends to have a heart for them.

There are many ideas and projects that the people can do in order to make this world a better place to live, a real home for the people living on this planet, if only the people would bother to gather such ideas, to discuss them and then to try to materialize them.

If anyone is interested to participate into such things, then please let me know. There is always something to do or at least some very valuable ideas to share.

I'm sorry for posting such a long message but I could not make it shorter. I am not trying to change the world, I know that's not possible, but I just want to do my job as a human being, to make sure I did my best to try to make a difference.

Thanks for reading this message!
They say that Beijing is the eternal city. They are always ready to help others. If there is an earthquake or a disaster anywhere in China the people of Beijing are ready to help them in their time of trouble. They want to build up and strengthen, not tear down and destroy.
 
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NewBlizzard

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Sorry to answer so slow, I'm in a vacation and I had to disconnect for a while.

But they have the resources, and therefore they can make the decisions.
Because we allow them to make decisions. Because we support them and, much worse than that, we are not working to create an alternative - the real associations and charities that everyone can trust.

My solution is for everyone to do the right thing in whatever they do. I have set the example, it's up to others to follow my example.
If you support the fake charities which are supported by the biggest organized crime leaders (War is a Racket) then I'm afraid you are not doing the right thing (Butler points to a variety of examples, mostly from World War I, where industrialists, whose operations were subsidised by public funding, were able to generate substantial profits, making money from mass human suffering).
Even more so if you are not trying to create a credible alternative to that.

I don't believe that doing the right thing in whatever we do is the solution. First of all, we have to decide if the things that we are doing make sense or not and then to chose to do only those things that really make sense doing. You can't do the right thing in practicing boxing for example.

That said dozens of people have witnessed how I do things over many years and not one has gotten the message. So there it is. If my example can't change those closest to me what chance would preaching to the multitudes do? I'm not going to "cast my pearls before swine".
You don't have to change anyone. They have to change themselves based on making sense of the things around them and based on the good examples like you provide.
You just have to reach the others like you and create the real friendships, the real associations, and the real activities that actually make sense doing.
If you just keep giving a good example to the people who don't care to learn something from it, then you are actually "casting your pearls before swine".

I think that all of us have to ask themselves if we are doing the right things and the most important things that we are supposed to do - in the first place.
I tried to do that and I've found that the most important thing, by far, is to try to reach others like me, who are trying to do the right things.
After that, voicing against supporting organized crime, against allowing fiscal paradises, against corruption, voicing against imports from countries where the people are exploited like slaves, and promoting land reforms in the poor countries, seem to be quite the most important things and the right things to do.
 
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NewBlizzard

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They say that Beijing is the eternal city. They are always ready to help others. If there is an earthquake or a disaster anywhere in China the people of Beijing are ready to help them in their time of trouble. They want to build up and strengthen, not tear down and destroy.
Sounds fantastic and it's liberating to think about that - but you are probably speaking about a spiritual Beijing, or about a city of angels that you just chose to call Beijing - and you are not talking about Beijing, capital of China, on planet Earth.

Back her on Earth, there is a lot of corruption in China and in Beijing. There a are a lot of lives ruined there, and that's because the people of Beijing are not ready to help them in their time of trouble.

The good people have to actually start doing the right things, reaching each other, and to start building that city of lights.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Sounds fantastic and it's liberating to think about that - but you are probably speaking about a spiritual Beijing, or about a city of angels that you just chose to call Beijing - and you are not talking about Beijing, capital of China, on planet Earth.

Back her on Earth, there is a lot of corruption in China and in Beijing. There a are a lot of lives ruined there, and that's because the people of Beijing are not ready to help them in their time of trouble.

The good people have to actually start doing the right things, reaching each other, and to start building that city of lights.
God is going to do a work in China before Jesus returns for His church.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Sorry to answer so slow, I'm in a vacation and I had to disconnect for a while.

Because we allow them to make decisions. Because we support them and, much worse than that, we are not working to create an alternative - the real associations and charities that everyone can trust.


If you support the fake charities which are supported by the biggest organized crime leaders (War is a Racket) then I'm afraid you are not doing the right thing (Butler points to a variety of examples, mostly from World War I, where industrialists, whose operations were subsidised by public funding, were able to generate substantial profits, making money from mass human suffering).
Even more so if you are not trying to create a credible alternative to that.

I don't believe that doing the right thing in whatever we do is the solution. First of all, we have to decide if the things that we are doing make sense or not and then to chose to do only those things that really make sense doing. You can't do the right thing in practicing boxing for example.

You don't have to change anyone. They have to change themselves based on making sense of the things around them and based on the good examples like you provide.
You just have to reach the others like you and create the real friendships, the real associations, and the real activities that actually make sense doing.
If you just keep giving a good example to the people who don't care to learn something from it, then you are actually "casting your pearls before swine".

I think that all of us have to ask themselves if we are doing the right things and the most important things that we are supposed to do - in the first place.
I tried to do that and I've found that the most important thing, by far, is to try to reach others like me, who are trying to do the right things.
After that, voicing against supporting organized crime, against allowing fiscal paradises, against corruption, voicing against imports from countries where the people are exploited like slaves, and promoting land reforms in the poor countries, seem to be quite the most important things and the right things to do.

I'm more about setting a good example than trying to jawbone others into changing. Doing the right thing takes more thought, time, and effort than the haphazard way most conduct their affairs. I concentrate my 'social' efforts within my family, friends, and fellow employees of the company. I have no time to go outside of this sphere, however, many 'outsiders' see what I do and often express their appreciation.

In regard to 'supporting' those organizations that you mention; they already have my taxes, and I don't have extra money on top of that to try correct what they are doing wrong.
 
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