Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

Jeffrey Bowden · Dec 30, 2024

Ed Parenteau said:
4:1 Tells John to "come up here".
4:2 is where he's in the spirit and "voila" he's in heaven. He's in heaven seeing visions at least through chapter 7. The first church members we see are in chapter 6:9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Is this what you refer to as every day trials and tribulation? And when would the rest of them be murdered for their faith?

I think the problem of the late dating of the Revelation causes a total rewrite of eschatology. For instance, John is told to measure the temple. Paul says the "man of sin" will sit in "the temple of God". What happens is that man then assumes things not stated and then makes those assumptions equal to scripture.
Jude said the faith was once and for all delivered to the saints. If Revelation was written after Jude, then that would put it outside the faith.

You are made wrong about John going to Heaven. He was shown everything by one angel (and by occasional assistance from one or another angel). Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8 prove my claim.

If John went to Heaven, he would have said so. But, his final words about his experience are in Rev 22:8. Nothing was said about going to Heaven. In fact, he stressed the complete opposite in Rev 22:8. Please go by the Bible, not your opinion.

Ed Parenteau · Dec 30, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
1 Th 4:16 is the verse that sounds the last trump. The "last trump" in 1 Cor 15:52 has nothing to do with the 7th trumpet.

As of the pre-Trib rapture, we first hear a shout: "Come up here!" That's the same shout in Rev 11:12.

The last trump is sounded. The dead in Christ are raised, and we too, the living believers, are changed into our eternal bodies.

1 Th 4:17 then immediately takes us into heavenly clouds to where we will meet our glorious Lord Jesus. Jesus will descend into the view of believers only, to fulfill Acts 1:11.

What I was referring to was the last trump on the last day.

Here's the definition of air:
Strong's Greek: 109. ἀήρ (aér) -- Air

And here's where the Lord came in a cloud and met Moses in the cloud in the air as defined above.
And the LORD said to Moses, “Behold, I am coming to you in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with you, and may also believe you forever.” When Moses told the words of the people to the LORD,

Jeffrey Bowden · Dec 30, 2024

Ed Parenteau said:
What I was referring to was the last trump on the last day.

Here's the definition of air:
Strong's Greek: 109. ἀήρ (aér) -- Air

And here's where the Lord came in a cloud and met Moses in the cloud in the air as defined above.
And the LORD said to Moses, “Behold, I am coming to you in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with you, and may also believe you forever.” When Moses told the words of the people to the LORD,

Ed Parenteau said:
4:1 Tells John to "come up here".
4:2 is where he's in the spirit and "voila" he's in heaven. He's in heaven seeing visions at least through chapter 7. The first church members we see are in chapter 6:9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Is this what you refer to as every day trials and tribulation? And when would the rest of them be murdered for their faith?

I think the problem of the late dating of the Revelation causes a total rewrite of eschatology. For instance, John is told to measure the temple. Paul says the "man of sin" will sit in "the temple of God". What happens is that man then assumes things not stated and then makes those assumptions equal to scripture.
Jude said the faith was once and for all delivered to the saints. If Revelation was written after Jude, then that would put it outside the faith.

Ed Parenteau said:
What I was referring to was the last trump on the last day.

Here's the definition of air:
Strong's Greek: 109. ἀήρ (aér) -- Air

And here's where the Lord came in a cloud and met Moses in the cloud in the air as defined above.
And the LORD said to Moses, “Behold, I am coming to you in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with you, and may also believe you forever.” When Moses told the words of the people to the LORD,The

Ed Parenteau said:
What I was referring to was the last trump on the last day.

Here's the definition of air:
Strong's Greek: 109. ἀήρ (aér) -- Air

And here's where the Lord came in a cloud and met Moses in the cloud in the air as defined above.
And the LORD said to Moses, “Behold, I am coming to you in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with you, and may also believe you forever.” When Moses told the words of the people to the LORD,

The last day is the last day of the current civilization. That will all change when the Trib starts. 1 Th 5:2-3 prove that all hell will break loose after the pre-Trib rapture.

The pre-Trib rapture will occur on the last day. That’s when Rev 4:1 will occur. 1 Th 4:16 will sound the last trump. That verse is a rapture verse. It raises the dead in Christ, and they and we are transformed into our eternal bodies. 1 Th 4:17 then has us raptured into heavenly clouds, where we will meet Jesus.

Jeffrey Bowden · Dec 30, 2024

Ed Parenteau said:
4:1 Tells John to "come up here".
4:2 is where he's in the spirit and "voila" he's in heaven. He's in heaven seeing visions at least through chapter 7. The first church members we see are in chapter 6:9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Is this what you refer to as every day trials and tribulation? And when would the rest of them be murdered for their faith?

I think the problem of the late dating of the Revelation causes a total rewrite of eschatology. For instance, John is told to measure the temple. Paul says the "man of sin" will sit in "the temple of God". What happens is that man then assumes things not stated and then makes those assumptions equal to scripture.
Jude said the faith was once and for all delivered to the saints. If Revelation was written after Jude, then that would put it outside the faith.

You are adding to Scripture. Rev 4:1-2 never
say John is in Heaven.

You are ignoring Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8. I believe John. You are changing what he wrote.

Jeffrey Bowden · Dec 30, 2024

Ed Parenteau said:
What I was referring to was the last trump on the last day.

Here's the definition of air:
Strong's Greek: 109. ἀήρ (aér) -- Air

And here's where the Lord came in a cloud and met Moses in the cloud in the air as defined above.
And the LORD said to Moses, “Behold, I am coming to you in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with you, and may also believe you forever.” When Moses told the words of the people to the LORD,

Rev 4:1: After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet …

“I looked” is about his vision that one angel was showing to him.

“I heard” is more about his vision.

Those words precede many things John wrote throughout Revelation. It was all a vision, that included audio — everything he heard in his vision.

Ed Parenteau · Dec 31, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
You are made wrong about John going to Heaven. He was shown everything by one angel (and by occasional assistance from one or another angel). Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8 prove my claim.

If John went to Heaven, he would have said so. But, his final words about his experience are in Rev 22:8. Nothing was said about going to Heaven. In fact, he stressed the complete opposite in Rev 22:8. Please go by the Bible, not your opinion.

I see, you're claiming that John didn't go into heaven in the Spirit because he didn't explicitly say the words: "I am in heaven".
But on the other hand you claim that 4:1 is a "pre tribulation rapture to heaven".
Who's told to "come up here"? and where is that?

=\\\\\\\22At once I was in the Spirit, and I saw a throne standing in heaven, with someone seated on it.

Jeffrey Bowden · Dec 31, 2024

Ed Parenteau said:
I see, you're claiming that John didn't go into heaven in the Spirit because he didn't explicitly say the words: "I am in heaven".
But on the other hand you claim that 4:1 is a "pre tribulation rapture to heaven".
Who's told to "come up here"? and where is that?

=\\\\\\\22At once I was in the Spirit, and I saw a throne standing in heaven, with someone seated on it.

First, you are ignoring Rev 1:1 (ESV): The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

That's the first verse in Rev. John made it crystal clear from the first verse that all of Revelation was made known to him by one angel that was sent to him while he was on Patmos. In the highlighted words above, the word "it" refers to the book of Revelation. John meant that 100% of Revelation was shown to him by one angel. That's all in the first verse of Revelation. Let's look at an update in the last chapter of Revelation.

Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

Nothing changed from verse 1 to a verse in the last chapter. It was one angel who showed John everything he "heard and saw" that became Revelation.

Rev 4:1 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

“I looked, and behold” are about what he saw in his vision, that one angel was showing to him.

“I had heard” is about the audio portion of his vision.

Rev 4:2 (ESV): At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne.

John was entranced in his vision.

John heard and saw all of Revelation by what one angel showed him. That is clearly stated in Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8.

Ed Parenteau · Jan 2, 2025

Jeffrey Bowden said:
First, you are ignoring Rev 1:1 (ESV): The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

That's the first verse in Rev. John made it crystal clear from the first verse that all of Revelation was made known to him by one angel that was sent to him while he was on Patmos. In the highlighted words above, the word "it" refers to the book of Revelation. John meant that 100% of Revelation was shown to him by one angel. That's all in the first verse of Revelation. Let's look at an update in the last chapter of Revelation.

Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

Nothing changed from verse 1 to a verse in the last chapter. It was one angel who showed John everything he "heard and saw" that became Revelation.

Rev 4:1 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

“I looked, and behold” are about what he saw in his vision, that one angel was showing to him.

“I had heard” is about the audio portion of his vision.

Rev 4:2 (ESV): At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne.

John was entranced in his vision.

John heard and saw all of Revelation by what one angel showed him. That is clearly stated in Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8.

I honestly have no idea what point you're trying to make.
What do think the angel meant when he said to John: "come up here"?
And what about the following?
Rev 21:10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,

Jeffrey Bowden · Jan 2, 2025

Ed Parenteau said:
I honestly have no idea what point you're trying to make.
What do think the angel meant when he said to John: "come up here"?
And what about the following?
Rev 21:10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,

I honestly don't believe you don't understand what point I was making.

I made the point that all that was revealed to John to write Rev was done through his vision that was given to him by one angel.

All experiences by John to learn what to write in Rev were through his vision. Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8 prove it.

Therefore, Rev 21:10 is another part of his vision. When John was "in the spirit" during his vision. it meant that he was deeply entranced by what he was learning and how it was being revealed to him. Rev 21:10 was a vision of being on a mountaintop that allowed John to see the future Jerusalem coming out of the sky from Heaven.

When you read and understand Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8, you will have clear understanding of all verses about what John experienced, and how he experienced it. John says in Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

Everything John learned to write Rev was revealed to him through his vision that was showed to him by one angel.

Ed Parenteau · Jan 3, 2025

Jeffrey Bowden said:
I honestly don't believe you don't understand what point I was making.

I made the point that all that was revealed to John to write Rev was done through his vision that was given to him by one angel.

All experiences by John to learn what to write in Rev were through his vision. Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8 prove it.

Therefore, Rev 21:10 is another part of his vision. When John was "in the spirit" during his vision. it meant that he was deeply entranced by what he was learning and how it was being revealed to him. Rev 21:10 was a vision of being on a mountaintop that allowed John to see the future Jerusalem coming out of the sky from Heaven.

When you read and understand Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8, you will have clear understanding of all verses about what John experienced, and how he experienced it. John says in Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

Everything John learned to write Rev was revealed to him through his vision that was showed to him by one angel.

You started this off by asking me if John went to heaven. Your making obvious observations about how the Father relayed the message to John, through the angel. I have no clue how you think that means John didn't go up to heaven at the angels command to "come up here" where the door he saw in heaven was.

Jeffrey Bowden · Jan 4, 2025

Ed Parenteau said:
You started this off by asking me if John went to heaven. Your making obvious observations about how the Father relayed the message to John, through the angel. I have no clue how you think that means John didn't go up to heaven at the angels command to "come up here" where the door he saw in heaven was.

You are misunderstanding Rev 4:1 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

That first voice speaking to John like a trumpet is in Rev 1:10-11 (ESV): I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet 11 saying, “Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”

It is Jesus who speaks with a loud voice like a trumpet. That is a very important link to 1 Th 4:16.

1 Th 4:16 (NLT): For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the believers who have died will rise from their graves.

What John wrote about in Rev 4:1 is the commanding shout we believers will hear upon 1 Th 4:16: "Come up here!"

Ed Parenteau · Jan 5, 2025

Jeffrey Bowden said:
You are misunderstanding Rev 4:1 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

That first voice speaking to John like a trumpet is in Rev 1:10-11 (ESV): I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet 11 saying, “Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”

It is Jesus who speaks with a loud voice like a trumpet. That is a very important link to 1 Th 4:16.

1 Th 4:16 (NLT): For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the believers who have died will rise from their graves.

What John wrote about in Rev 4:1 is the commanding shout we believers will hear upon 1 Th 4:16: "Come up here!"

Nice try, but there's no equivalence to 1Th4:16 whatsoever. "Speaking to me" is not a "commanding shout."

Strong's Lexicon
laleó: To speak, to talk, to utter Strong's Greek: 2980. λαλέω (laleó) -- To speak, to talk, to utter

Strong's Lexicon Strong's Greek: 2752. κέλευμα (keleusma) -- Command, shout, signal
keleusma: Command, shout, signal

The second contrary statement is: "come down from heaven" 1 Th 4:16 is the opposite of "come up here" (to heaven) Rev4:1

Then there's the idea that Rev 4:1 the resurrection and the rapture. It doesn't say a single word about it. It says "After this I looked", it doesn't say "After this, and before the tribulation, the church was told to come up here to heaven". But that's exactly what you're trying to tell us it says.
. Rev 4:1,2 1After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne.
So now you're telling me that it's Jesus who shows all that John sees and hears?

Jeffrey Bowden · Jan 5, 2025

Ed Parenteau said:
Nice try, but there's no equivalence to 1Th4:16 whatsoever. "Speaking to me" is not a "commanding shout."

Strong's Lexicon
laleó: To speak, to talk, to utter Strong's Greek: 2980. λαλέω (laleó) -- To speak, to talk, to utter

Strong's Lexicon Strong's Greek: 2752. κέλευμα (keleusma) -- Command, shout, signal
keleusma: Command, shout, signal

The second contrary statement is: "come down from heaven" 1 Th 4:16 is the opposite of "come up here" (to heaven) Rev4:1

Then there's the idea that Rev 4:1 the resurrection and the rapture. It doesn't say a single word about it. It says "After this I looked", it doesn't say "After this, and before the tribulation, the church was told to come up here to heaven". But that's exactly what you're trying to tell us it says.
. Rev 4:1,2 1After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne.
So now you're telling me that it's Jesus who shows all that John sees and hears?

All experiences by John to learn what to write in Rev were through his vision. Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8 prove it.

Rev 4:1 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, … which I had heard speaking to me

Rev 5:11 (ESV): Then I looked, and I heard around the throne …

Thoughout the book of Rev, John says he “looked” and he “heard.” All those statements verify the truth in Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8. John heard and saw everything about Rev —- in the vision administered to him by one angel.

Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8 mean what they say: one angel showed John his vision. In that vision, there were audio experiences. Also, fellow angels and others in Heaven (elders) had their roles in John’s vision.

Jesus descends in 1 Th 4:16 from Heaven. That is a very general description of His descent. Rev 4:1 clarifies how little Jesus will actually descend. Also, we are raptured to Him in 1 Th 4:17. So, there is no difference in Rev 4:1 and 1 Th 4:16-17. His descent is minimal, perhaps only from His throne. After all, Jesus is there to welcome to Heaven, His faithful Church.

Paz(peace) · Jan 5, 2025

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Keras, Rev 3:10 is about the future 7-year Trib that only unbelievers enter. Rev 4:1 is wholly in the future. Rev 22:8 proves apostle John never left the island of Patmos. It was just one angel who showed him everything he heard and saw in his entire vision of Revelation. The proof is in John's own words, in Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

Therefore, John merely wrote about Rev 4:1, as well as all else he heard and saw in his vision of Revelation. Again, John attests to that fact in Rev 22:8.

1 Th 1:10 is apostle Paul's first verse about the pre-Trib rapture of the Church. Here's 1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

God’s wrath is well-defined in Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

In the Trib, the wrath of God begins no later than Rev 6:4 regarding “wars” that will suddenly break out all over the world. Here's Rev 6:4 (NLT): Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

So, we know that God’s wrath will come in the 2nd seal. That satisfies the requirement for God’s wrath at the beginning of the Trib, for the purposes of 1 Th 1:10.

“Delivers us” in 1 Th 1:10 relates to the second usage of “deliverance,” in the Bible. That second usage translates to “snatch away.” Therefore, that verse is about our being “snatched away" just before God’s wrath comes in the Trib. We know from Rev 6:4 that God’s wrath will come in the 2nd seal.

In 1 Th 1:10, we will be raptured (snatched away) from Earth immediately prior to the Trib due to God’s wrath about to come in the 2nd seal.

That is what Jesus means in Rev 3:10 by His words, "I will keep you from the hour of trial.” We believers will not enter the 7-year Trib.

This is very well written.

Jeffrey Bowden · Jan 5, 2025

Paz(peace) said:
This is very well written.

Thank you, sir!

Ed Parenteau · Jan 6, 2025

Jeffrey Bowden said:
You are misunderstanding Rev 4:1 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

That first voice speaking to John like a trumpet is in Rev 1:10-11 (ESV): I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet 11 saying, “Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”

It is Jesus who speaks with a loud voice like a trumpet. That is a very important link to 1 Th 4:16.

You just claimed it was Jesus who spoke with a loud voice like a trumpet. The one speaking with a loud voice said "come up here, and I will show you .....
So is it Jesus or the angel who speaks with the loud voice like a trumpet and will show them what comes after that?

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Jesus descends in 1 Th 4:16 from Heaven. That is a very general description of His descent. Rev 4:1 clarifies how little Jesus will actually descend. Also, we are raptured to Him in 1 Th 4:17. So, there is no difference in Rev 4:1 and 1 Th 4:16-17. His descent is minimal, perhaps only from His throne. After all, Jesus is there to welcome to Heaven, His faithful Church.

You're just writing up your own scripture now despite Paul's admonition to "not go beyond what is written." It's hard to do when following an evolutionary eschatology that changes over time with the times.

Jeffrey Bowden · Jan 6, 2025

Ed Parenteau said:
You just claimed it was Jesus who spoke with a loud voice like a trumpet. The one speaking with a loud voice said "come up here, and I will show you .....
So is it Jesus or the angel who speaks with the loud voice like a trumpet and will show them what comes after that?

You're just writing up your own scripture now despite Paul's admonition to "not go beyond what is written." It's hard to do when following an evolutionary eschatology that changes over time with the times.

You are still denying the facts below:

All experiences by John to learn what to write in Rev were through his vision. Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8 prove it.

Rev 4:1 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, … which I had heard speaking to me

Rev 5:11 (ESV): Then I looked, and I heard around the throne …

Throughout the book of Rev, John says he “looked” and he “heard.” All those statements verify the truth in Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8. John heard and saw everything about Rev, in the vision administered to him by one angel (Rev 22:8).

Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8 mean what they say: one angel showed John his vision. In that vision, there were audio experiences. Also, fellow angels and others in Heaven (elders) had their roles in John’s vision.

The facts above prove that John learned everything to write Rev through the vision that one angel showed him.

Therefore, John was always on Patmos (Rev 1:9-11 (ESV): I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet 11 saying, “Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”

John was on Patmos to write the seven letters to the seven churches. He Immediately after finishing those letters, John entered his vision in verse 12: Rev 1:12 (ESV): Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,

That is the beginning moment to John's vision. There was no rapture of John to Heaven, yet he was able to immediately see great detail of a scene in Heaven.

All that follows in Rev is from the spectacular vision John experienced. This is proven by Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

John first saw great detail of a scene in Heaven in Rev 1:12, the beginning moment of his vision. He did this while clearly on Patmos. Per Rev 22:8, he saw the entirety of all his vision that was shown to him by one angel. John never Patmos during any of his vision. His vision started and ended on Patmos.

Ed Parenteau · Jan 7, 2025

Jeffrey Bowden said:
You are still denying the facts below:

All experiences by John to learn what to write in Rev were through his vision. Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8 prove it.

Rev 4:1 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, … which I had heard speaking to me

Rev 5:11 (ESV): Then I looked, and I heard around the throne …

Throughout the book of Rev, John says he “looked” and he “heard.” All those statements verify the truth in Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8. John heard and saw everything about Rev, in the vision administered to him by one angel (Rev 22:8).

Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8 mean what they say: one angel showed John his vision. In that vision, there were audio experiences. Also, fellow angels and others in Heaven (elders) had their roles in John’s vision.

The facts above prove that John learned everything to write Rev through the vision that one angel showed him.

Therefore, John was always on Patmos (Rev 1:9-11 (ESV): I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet 11 saying, “Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”

John was on Patmos to write the seven letters to the seven churches. He Immediately after finishing those letters, John entered his vision in verse 12: Rev 1:12 (ESV): Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,

That is the beginning moment to John's vision. There was no rapture of John to Heaven, yet he was able to immediately see great detail of a scene in Heaven.

All that follows in Rev is from the spectacular vision John experienced. This is proven by Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

John first saw great detail of a scene in Heaven in Rev 1:12, the beginning moment of his vision. He did this while clearly on Patmos. Per Rev 22:8, he saw the entirety of all his vision that was shown to him by one angel. John never Patmos during any of his vision. His vision started and ended on Patmos.

Despite the fact you're obsessed with these facts, I've never denied those facts. You're using them as a distraction so you don't have to respond to what I am saying. Otherwise, show me where I've ever denied those facts.

Jeffrey Bowden · Jan 7, 2025

Ed Parenteau said:
Despite the fact you're obsessed with these facts, I've never denied those facts. You're using them as a distraction so you don't have to respond to what I am saying. Otherwise, show me where I've ever denied those facts.

If you’ve truly never denied the facts I presented, do you now see that John never went to Heaven? Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8 prove he never went to Heaven. Those verses prove that John learned everything he wrote for Rev, by way of the vision that one angel showed him.

Ed Parenteau · Jan 8, 2025

Jeffrey Bowden said:
If you’ve truly never denied the facts I presented, do you now see that John never went to Heaven? Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8 prove he never went to Heaven. Those verses prove that John learned everything he wrote for Rev, by way of the vision that one angel showed him.

Under no circumstances do those verses prove that John didn't go in the Spirit to heaven or to the "high mountain" or anywhere else. Why you would claim that is beyond the meaning of the words used in those verses.
In the following, this person was raptured up into the third heaven. It was his spirit that was raptured. His body didn't go anywhere.
2 Corinthians 12:2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of it I do not know, but God knows.
Since you haven't expounded as to why that would be the case, I'm at a loss as to why you think that would be true.

Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

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