Alpha.Omega
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- Apr 17, 2018
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what about Jesus' words in John 14, seems pretty clear that He is speaking of a place.
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Yes, like I say, the resurrection can be bodily (how would I know?). But that isn't heaven.
Jesus said it is within us.Heaven will come down to the New Earth when Christ returns. It is and will be a place. Our resurrection has to be physical or we are of all people most to be pitied, as St. Paul would say. I take Christ's kingdom of God is within you to mean that we can take an inner refuge in God's kingdom of salvation. It's like how Augustine uses the term city of God. When Christian Rome was sacked by invaders, those who took refuge in Christian temples were spared. In the same way, Augustine points out that those who take refuge in the spiritual city of God (through faith in Christ) are spared from judgment. Neither the spiritual city of God or the kingdom of God are imaginary, but they are cities of faith.
Our future and blessed hope isn't going to some place called "Heaven", but the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting in the renewed creation. We will spend eternity here on earth--renewed, healed, and restored.
-CryptoLutheran
I believe that heaven and the kingdom of God are the same place.Well, first, I'd point out that Heaven is not the kingdom of God. When Jesus says the kingdom of God/Heaven He is not talking about "Heaven", but God's reign. That is, He is talking about what it means for God to be King.
Second, it depends on what we mean by "Heaven". In Hebrew the word is always plural "Heavens", and in Hebrew (and Near Eastern) thought there were seven heavens, likely due to the significance of the number seven in the ancient near east being associated with the sacred indicating completeness. We shouldn't take the idea of seven heavens too literally, as though we can map them out in some kind of celestial topography. Fundamentally the important thing is that ancient people often envisioned the gods dwelling up in the heavens, however the Israelites frequently spoke of their God dwelling higher than the heavens, or above the heavens: God transcends everything, so Solomon could say, "The heavens, not even the heavens of heavens can contain You, how much less this house which I have built." The phrase "heavens of heavens" is similar to similar expressions such as "Holy of Holies" and "King of Kings", the literal meaning is the highest, greatest, or most sublime of something. Thus the "heavens of heavens" is the highest or greatest heavens, of which there is nothing greater or higher--and here God is greater than even this.
So, in one sense "Heaven" or "the heavens" can simply mean "everything we see when we look up and that which is beyond even that", ancient people didn't have the same view of the earth and its relationship to the rest of the cosmos as we do today, so it would be anachronistic to try and force our modern cosmological model upon the ancients.
All of this should help us understand that that "Heaven" as a concept is an attempt to speak of divine sublimity--the utter transcendent greatness of God beyond and above all of creation. Thus, the idea of "Heaven" as being God's abode, as we speak of God's throne in Heaven, or Christ being seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven, or of the angels and saints in Heaven before God's throne all must be understood within the linguistic-cultural lens of the people and time. It would be wrong to try and insist that God literally sits on a chair somewhere in the universe, or that Jesus is literally seated on another chair right next to the Father, or any of these such things. The throne of God speaks of God's sovereign authority and Kingly rule over the whole universe as the Maker and Ruler of all things; Christ being seated at the right hand of the Father is to speak of Christ's power and authority as the Risen Lord and Messiah. When we speak of the angels and saints being with God in Heaven we mean they are indeed present with the Lord, but in what sense that can be comprehended by us is fundamentally beyond our ability--but we do have the hope and promise that those who are in Christ will be with Him between the death of the body and the resurrection of the body.
Heaven, ultimately, isn't about where, but Who. It is about God's presence, God's rule, God's power, and God Himself. And we can't point to some place "out there" and say "Hey, that's where God is" because, in reality, God is everywhere. There is no place God is not. He fills all things, and is beyond all things.
-CryptoLutheran
I also think heaven is heaven. I just don't really see the justification of your interpretation.I think heaven is heaven, the peace that descends on us when we repent of our sin (Matt 4:17).
If you are referring to Jesus speaking to the Pharisees, He said it was "among" them. While the Greek used can mean "within", it doesn't fit at all in the context of being said to the Pharisees. The Pharisees certainly did NOT have the kingdom of God in them.Jesus said heaven is within us.
Jesus said it is within us.
It's easier to repent than searching for reasons not to.You will find that the Greek adverb ἐντός, used in Luke 17:21, does not only have the meaning of "within", but, as shown in examples by the Greek scholars, Liddell and Scott in their famous lexicon, is also used for, "with, on this side, before, near" (page 577). Jesus was here responding to the Pharisees, and it could not mean that the Kingdom of God was "inside" them, as they were hostile to the Lord and not even saved! You will find that many English versions have this meaning;
NIV, "in your midst."
NTL, "already among you."
ESV, "in the midst of you.”
Berean, "in your midst."
NASB, "in your midst."
CSB, " in your midst."
CEV, "is here with you."
HCSB, " is among you."
ISV, "is among you."
NET, "in your midst."
NAS, "in your midst.”
King James 2000, "midst of you.
RSV, "in the midst of you."
NRSV, "is among you.”
Darby, "in the midst of you"
I used the King James Version, which is considered reliable and is saying basically the same thing.He said the kingdom is "in the midst of you", as He Himself was the reality of God's kingdom present right before the eyes of the Pharisees, and yet they did not recognize it.
-CryptoLutheran
Ok, but can you provide better references? The passages you've used so far don't work very well in your favor.I believe that heaven and the kingdom of God are the same place.
But this isn't about the resurrection. I haven't been there but I've always assumed I'd have a body in the resurrction. This is a thread about heaven.The resurrection of the body is the only kind of resurrection the Bible knows. As a Methodist I'm sure your church uses the Apostles' Creed, which itself expressly mentions the resurrection of the body.
-CryptoLutheran
People say that heaven is a place (people say a lot of things), but Jesus said that “the kingdom of God is within you (Luke 17:20 KJV).”
So how do you find it? Try this:
From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matt 4:17 RSV
It's easier to repent than searching for reasons not to.
It's sort of hard following everybody's train of thought. Jesus said heaven is within us. He tells us to repent because the kingdom of heaven is at hand. I believe he is telling us that if we repent, we will have peace. And there there is the resurrection: the place we go when we die.If flesh and blood cant inherit the Kingdom of heaven then it wont enter heaven itself either. Assuming that they are different things of course, which im not assuming, just going with the flow of discussion.
1 Corinthians 15:50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does [p]the perishable inherit [q]the imperishable
Heaven is a spiritual realm, it cannot be explained by physical location.
"Within you" and "among you" are NOT basically the same thing.I used the King James Version, which is considered reliable and is saying basically the same thing.
I suspect the resurrection is somewhere else. Could this earth hold all the people?Our future and blessed hope isn't going to some place called "Heaven", but the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting in the renewed creation. We will spend eternity here on earth--renewed, healed, and restored.
-CryptoLutheran
Jesus couldn't have been more clear: The kingdom of heaven is within us.did you even read #18, or are you just going to bang on your drum, and ignore facts?
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