Where is Dr. Fauci?

[Homeowner]

Bit like Norman Schwarzkopf was around during Gulf War but nobody is interviewing him now ?

Almost like COVID crisis has been largely surpassed and new crisis like Ukraine war are more interesting ?

 

[Halbhh]

Science.

Vaccination Alters the Balance between Protective Immunity, Exhaustion, Escape, and Death in Chronic Infections

"Vaccination expands the numbers of lymphocytes specific for a given pathogen. However, in some circumstances, increasing the number of antigen-specific lymphocytes may fail to provide protection and instead lead to an adverse outcome following exposure to the pathogen. Vaccine-induced pathology can occur for many reasons. For instance, the recent adenovirus 5-based vaccination against human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) led to an increased probability of infection following exposure (18). Alternatively, the severity of infection might increase, as seen with respiratory syncytial virus (RSV) following early attempts at immunization (10, 13, 14) and as potentially occurs with dengue virus, with which previous infection with one serotype may result in more severe pathology following challenge with heterologous serotypes (11, 19). The problem of adverse effects is of current relevance in the context of the development of vaccines against persistent infections."

Yes, and notice the first word in this quote, from your quote: "...may fail to provide protection".

So, therefore there is a lot of testing in trials, to find out whether or not a particular vaccine works well.

Some don't work well. Some do work well.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, and notice the first word in this quote, from your quote: "...may fail to provide protection".

So, therefore there is a lot of testing in trials, to find out whether or not a particular vaccine works well.

Some don't work well. Some do work well.

True - but in the source document there are two problems one is whether a given vaccine works and the other is what happens when you have too much of that "good thing".

 

[BobRyan]

Thank you for this totally up-to-date information from 11 years ago!

yeah - you would think that biology would have had enough time to change by then. Turns out - biology is more inclined to "Work the same" even 11 years later.

 

[Halbhh]

True - but in the source document there are two problems one is whether a given vaccine works and the other is what happens when you have too much of that "good thing".

Right, the "too much" has come up recently, because a 2nd booster dose of the Covid vaccine (the 4th dose) can actually reduce total immunity depending on how long the interval is (if it's too short an interval), according to Dr. Campbell's reporting of research. One useful finding, now that Omicron has spread so very widely to most of the population, is that natural antibodies (from getting Omicron) will typically last at a good level in a normal person for about a year. So, therefore, a typical person it seems should not get a 4th dose if one has had Omicron in the last 12 months.

 

[KCfromNC]

Science.

Vaccination Alters the Balance between Protective Immunity, Exhaustion, Escape, and Death in Chronic Infections

"Vaccination expands the numbers of lymphocytes specific for a given pathogen. However, in some circumstances, increasing the number of antigen-specific lymphocytes may fail to provide protection and instead lead to an adverse outcome following exposure to the pathogen. Vaccine-induced pathology can occur for many reasons. For instance, the recent adenovirus 5-based vaccination against human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) led to an increased probability of infection following exposure (18). Alternatively, the severity of infection might increase, as seen with respiratory syncytial virus (RSV) following early attempts at immunization (10, 13, 14) and as potentially occurs with dengue virus, with which previous infection with one serotype may result in more severe pathology following challenge with heterologous serotypes (11, 19). The problem of adverse effects is of current relevance in the context of the development of vaccines against persistent infections."

And the evidence that this is an issue for any of the covid vaccines currently in use is?

 

[KCfromNC]

Right, the "too much" has come up recently, because a 2nd booster dose of the Covid vaccine (the 4th dose) can actually reduce total immunity depending on how long the interval is (if it's too short an interval), according to Dr. Campbell's reporting of research.

Links to this research?

 

[Halbhh]

Links to this research?

The important question being how long is the recommended interval (by implication the shortest interval recommended) between a 1rst booster dose and a 2nd booster dose?

First a quick note of interest to many: is a natural omicron infection (that is a Covid infection gotten from the end of December 2021 onward in time) like a booster shot in producing good immunity? Answer: yes. Therefore, in counting how long to wait between boosters, if someone also had a natural infection after their 1rst booster dose, they should count the time interval from that infection if it's more recent than their last vaccination, as if it was a booster dose itself. (this is easy to find research and you should check it yourself if you are unsure)

Let's post the basic conventional thought -- the CDC guidelines (which are pretty conservative):

In the link (below) scroll down the page a long ways to find:

Table 2. COVID-19 vaccination schedule for people who are NOT moderately or severely immunocompromised
And for "18 and older" you see there "4 months" as the recommended (and really also the soonest recommended) time to get a 2nd booster by that conventional guideline after a previous dose (and I add also because of a similar effect, a recent infection with Omicron counts as a recent booster) Note that the 4 month interval here is for those with normally functioning immune systems.

Also, further down in the page is the recommended intervals for those with weak immune systems: Table 3. COVID-19 vaccination schedule for people who are moderately or severely immunocompromised

Clinical Guidance for COVID-19 Vaccination | CDC

 

[KCfromNC]

The important question being how long is the recommended interval (by implication the shortest interval recommended) between a 1rst booster dose and a 2nd booster dose?

If you're just saying that boosters are more effective if they're spaced out, there's nothing new about that. I was more interested getting evidence that, as a previous post stated, one can be "over-vaccinted" for covid. For example, is there data showing that "too much" of the vaccine will reduce immune responses? Those are the claims that we were discussing here, so bringing up the timing of the vaccines rather than the quantity of them seems weird.

 

[Halbhh]

If you're just saying that boosters are more effective if they're spaced out, there's nothing new about that. I was more interested getting evidence that, as a previous post stated, one can be "over-vaccinted" for covid. For example, is there data showing that "too much" of the vaccine will reduce immune responses? Those are the claims that we were discussing here, so bringing up the timing of the vaccines rather than the quantity of them seems weird.

Right. Campbell tends to read a lot of research, and also probably find less visible or obscurely titled research ordinary reporters would not find, so I tried to find the video I'd seen Campbell's saying that, but he has a new one every day and I didn't find that particular one when I listened to 3 yesterday. So, there may be some research, but all I have is news articles at the moment. If you've read various research news over the last couple of years, you will at times find topics where you can get competing claims, of course.

An obvious one is masks -- where just like this question of optimum interval, there is complexity, and plenty will speak up without nuance or even noticing what's at issue, so you get all these useless articles that don't get to the real question around. For masks the real questions were things like what level of masking is the best compromise between what's practical and what works for what level of immune vulnerability and so on, rather nuanced and detailed. But we got endless claims at at simplistic level about 'masks work' (which is true and very useful) and 'masks don't work' (which is misleading and can be deadly for some) where the latter were clueless about the difference between preventing 100% of spread vs greatly reducing the quantity of spread, etc.

So, merely that someone says (the not even disputed) point that a 4th booster can boost immunity, for example, that doesn't tell us anything much for what I want to know. Of course it will. But how soon is a meaningful statistically likely gain available?....(I want more than the overly simplified rule that fails to distinguish what different groups need)

We want to know how long an interval is optimum, and whether or not there are complicating factors or such, etc., even if we can't find all we want to know. Anyway, here is the disputed idea in a link below, but.... On the other hand one could try an entirely different angle altogether, like how long does effective immunity against serious illness last from what immune stimulation (like a natural infection, etc.) for what group. That's a different angle you could try. The bit I heard, which you ought to research on your own for your own particular unique situation, is for example (one case) if one has natural immunity from an omicron infection that seems (based on previous variants) likely to cause a meaningful level of immune response for about a year(ish) of time (which I think is for those not elderly and who have good immune function).

So, for the moment, until I find more, here's the topic in dispute, started by this viewpoint:
Frequent Boosters Spur Warning on Immune Response

And I don't know yet if it was only for this reason:
What’s the magic number for booster shots?

If you like to search for research stuff also and bring it here, the more the better!

 

[Halbhh]

For those still at what they think is a effective level of immune response for their unique personal situations (level of health, immune system strength, time since last vaccine booster, time since last natural infection), here's an update I just noticed on the Omicron specific boosters:

June 22, 2022 – Moderna released study results today showing its new Omicron-specific booster increased antibodies against the coronavirus by a factor of 5, even against some of the newer and more worrisome variants.

The company also today said it will soon ask the FDA to authorize the use of the vaccine. The company said shipments of this vaccine could begin as early as this summer....
Moderna Says COVID Booster 'Potent' vs Newer Omicron Variants

 

[Halbhh]

More detailed look at how immunity conferred by vaccination and by natural infection protects against new infection (which isn't the same nor I think usefully a measure to estimate severity and/or protection against hospitalization), and how it wanes. Here it's found that natural infection does strongly help confer immunity even as well or better than a vaccination (both are good, but it is useful to be aware that a natural infection should be counted according to how recently the infection happened, just as if it was a booster that lasts a longer than a typical booster, as shown in the 'results' section at top).
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2118946

 

[KCfromNC]

Right. Campbell tends to read a lot of research, and also probably find less visible or obscurely titled research ordinary reporters would not find, so I tried to find the video I'd seen Campbell's saying that, but he has a new one every day and I didn't find that particular one when I listened to 3 yesterday. So, there may be some research, but all I have is news articles at the moment. If you've read various research news over the last couple of years, you will at times find topics where you can get competing claims, of course.

An obvious one is masks -- where just like this question of optimum interval, there is complexity, and plenty will speak up without nuance or even noticing what's at issue, so you get all these useless articles that don't get to the real question around. For masks the real questions were things like what level of masking is the best compromise between what's practical and what works for what level of immune vulnerability and so on, rather nuanced and detailed. But we got endless claims at at simplistic level about 'masks work' (which is true and very useful) and 'masks don't work' (which is misleading and can be deadly for some) where the latter were clueless about the difference between preventing 100% of spread vs greatly reducing the quantity of spread, etc.

So, merely that someone says (the not even disputed) point that a 4th booster can boost immunity, for example, that doesn't tell us anything much for what I want to know. Of course it will. But how soon is a meaningful statistically likely gain available?....(I want more than the overly simplified rule that fails to distinguish what different groups need)

We want to know how long an interval is optimum, and whether or not there are complicating factors or such, etc., even if we can't find all we want to know. Anyway, here is the disputed idea in a link below, but.... On the other hand one could try an entirely different angle altogether, like how long does effective immunity against serious illness last from what immune stimulation (like a natural infection, etc.) for what group. That's a different angle you could try. The bit I heard, which you ought to research on your own for your own particular unique situation, is for example (one case) if one has natural immunity from an omicron infection that seems (based on previous variants) likely to cause a meaningful level of immune response for about a year(ish) of time (which I think is for those not elderly and who have good immune function).

So, for the moment, until I find more, here's the topic in dispute, started by this viewpoint:
Frequent Boosters Spur Warning on Immune Response

And I don't know yet if it was only for this reason:
What’s the magic number for booster shots?

If you like to search for research stuff also and bring it here, the more the better!

Yeah, I didn't see any evidence for the idea that is was possible to be over-vaccinated for covid either.

 

[Halbhh]

Yeah, I didn't see any evidence for the idea that is was possible to be over-vaccinated for covid either.

Well, while it's already clear at least to me you should not get a 4th dose less than 4 months after your third (and maybe you already get that), it's useful to know how long is reasonable to wait if you got Omicron also, as a majority of Americans have gotten....

On that very key question, see the last 2 posts just above.

 

[KCfromNC]

Well, while it's already clear at least to me you should not get a 4th dose less than 4 months after your third (and maybe you already get that), it's useful to know how long is reasonable to wait if you got Omicron also, as a majority of Americans have gotten....

On that very key question, see the last 2 posts just above.

Just as long as no one confuses these with thinking that the earlier claims about being "over-vaccined" are actually a thing.

 

[Halbhh]

Just as long as no one confuses these with thinking that the earlier claims about being "over-vaccined" are actually a thing.

Ah, you think some people might worry that booster shots are bad no matter what interval, no matter how long apart? Maybe someone might think that, and it's good to point out then the reality: the Covid booster vaccine can and does help, and it's especially clear already by research with a definite clear proof that the 3rd dose (1rst booster), spaced at least 4 months after the 2nd dose (or 4 moths after a natural infection if that is the more recent event) is highly beneficial.

So, we want to make sure people know that, of course.

True - but in the source document there are two problems one is whether a given vaccine works and the other is what happens when you have too much of that "good thing".

 

[Halbhh]

Another recent study with some complex details of interests:
Covid-19: Omicron infection is poor booster to immunity [against Omicron, but not against other variants], study finds

Notable findings include: " “Getting infected with omicron does not provide a potent boost to immunity against reinfection with omicron in the future."

But an omicron infection does help boost immunity against other non-Omicron variants, interestingly -- "people with no prior SARS-CoV-2 infection who then had omicron showed enhanced cross reactive immunity to previous variants—with enhanced B and T cell immunity against the alpha, beta, gamma, and delta variants—" --....and that's not trivial, in that other variants can evolve or old ones can return.

But also, another possibility is that: "“A concern is that omicron could potentially mutate further into a more pathogenic strain or become better able to overcome vaccine protection. In this scenario, people who have had omicron infection would be poorly boosted against future infection depending on their immune imprinting.”
The last is of interest and meaningful for many, since Omicron has been widespread.

So, while I was already planning to get the Omicron specific booster once becomes available (see post #31 above for news), now I have another reason to do so.

 

[Halbhh]

Just as long as no one confuses these with thinking that the earlier claims about being "over-vaccined" are actually a thing.

I think you'd probably want to know also about new findings about Omicron infection in particular, which I just posted above in post #37.

 

[Halbhh]

Oh, by the way, it was in news a while back, like a few months ago(?), that Fauci was thinking to retire. But it's not been clear exactly when...
Like maybe he's trying it out at the moment.

He could retire if he chooses but still give interviews to give advice on national news shows if he liked.

Has he served his purpose and been put out to pasture? We heard from him multiple times a week - then he caught Covid-19 despite two vaccinations and two booster - wearing two masks.

Anyone heard from him?

Dr. Anthony Fauci, the top medical advisor to President Joe Biden and a key member of the White House’s COVID-19 response team, became a mainstay on cable news airways and in print media pages beginning in early 2020. In the past month, he’s hardly made any public appearances, and has been relegated largely to local news interviews and secondary cable networks.

According to the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, Fauci has not made any media appearances to discuss COVID-19 since Feb. 23, when he did an interview with Bloomberg TV. He has not appeared on a major cable or network news show in nearly three weeks, since a Feb. 17 hit on CNN.

In the month of December alone, Fauci did 22 interviews or appearances with major national news outlets or programs — from Rachel Maddow’s MSNBC show to Neil Cavuto’s program on Fox Business to a sit-down with The Atlantic. In January and February combined, he made only 15 such appearances. So far in March, he’s made zero.​

 

[KCfromNC]

I think you'd probably want to know also about new findings about Omicron infection in particular, which I just posted above in post #37.

Agree, the omicron stuff is hopeful, and runs quite counter to the idea that too many covid vaccinations actually makes immunity worse.