Where is Christ and Man in the midst of all this sin.

[Triangulation]

Ok is have heard it said we as Christians have freedom in Christ that we no longer have to fear death, judgment, wrath and that the burden of Christ isn't heavy.

I think this question touches on Theology, Philosophy and Humanity.

Keep in mind this is only a question, I have had no formal training in theology, philosophy or humanity. This statement and questions are meant to impress on the mind ideas that may arise from the general statement. Please do not ask me what I personally meant by this, as the statement aplies to many concerns of past present and future.

So here is the issue of my concern.

When Jesus stopped the mob that was about to stone the adulterous, He reminded that them they all have sinned, Then He told the adulterous to sin no more. Obviously she was going to sin again. Obviously people in the mob were going to sin again. To say we as believers no longer commit the act of sin is like believing a tremdous lie. I certainly understand that Christians have forgiveness in Chirst and so although we may suffer from consequences of our sins. Because of Jesus in the eyes of God they are no more.

So what is right morally right or ethically right to me becomes the issue. Is wrong in the eyes of God to allow personal choices and freedoms of individuals who are making mistakes and the missing the mark just as we are? Is it wrong to take away that freedom, like wise what about the groups or people that want to take away Christian freedoms, like esembly and worship in the name of religion?

To me it would make more sense to allow rights even if I choose not to participate in those rights. Be it political or whatever, then it would to begin a Holier then though crusade in the name of God.

If we are free to sin then why did He come? If we are not free to sin then why did He come? I see it as we shouldn't sin but when we do sin we are forgiven. What do you think?

What should the Christian theologically believe about this? Is there a only opinion about this or is there realistic orthodox non debated scripture about this? Anyone know?

 

[Dad Ernie]

To me it would make more sense to allow rights even if I choose not to participate in those rights. Be it political or whatever, then it would to begin a Holier then though crusade in the name of God.

If we are free to sin then why did He come? If we are not free to sin then why did He come? I see it as we shouldn't sin but when we do sin we are forgiven. What do you think?

What should the Christian theologically believe about this? Is there a only opinion about this or is there realistic orthodox non debated scripture about this? Anyone know?

Greetings Triangulation,

Have you been listening to "Key Life"? This subject was preached on just the other day. You might want to access their site on the web and go through the last few days of their show.

I think first and foremost we must consider WHY Jesus came and I don't mean JUST for our salvation, but what does He say? What comes to mind is that we are to "pick up our cross and follow Him". I think that we MUST FIRST "count the cost", because indeed the weight of the cross that Jesus bore and that we too have to bear can be very weighty. So in this we do have a choice. If you are NOT bearing your cross AND you are NOT following Him, where do you think that leads? BAD habits are easy to pick up, but they are VERY hard to put back down.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[Theophorus]

I am not sure I understand all of your questions but I'll give it a go, and this is one of many theological perspectives.

We are made in the image of God. Those things pertaining to image in paticular are immortality, reason, and free will.

Free will is a gift and so it is not wrong to allow someone to exercise it. In the context of being made in the image of God, the allowance of free will becomes a none issue, it just is.

One of the goals of the Christian should be to prepare for our physical death, so that when it comes upon us we are found without sin, or transformed into the likeness of Jesus, for this is what God will see when he looks at us, and we may have boldness to appraoch Him, having no fear of sin. The big thing about God becoming flesh and dying the death of a man, is that He conquered death by death. Or rather he transformed death. It is how a man faces death that is key. When Christ "died" he paved the way for us to die in a similar manner.
If one is embroiled with sin, the grace of God is not in him (1John) but if one strives with God, by the power of Christ, his grace empowers us, and as Christ transformed death into life, likewise by his grace we do also.
By repenting, or turning away from sin, and embracing the love of God towards us, His favour/grace works (energizes) us into the perfection of Jesus. That is the race to be run that Paul speaks of, and the power of the cross. So, though we may stumble from time to time, if we embrace the dynamo, power of God, then we are truly repentant and move forward in the transformation, or theosis, but if we continue to sin how can we truly be repentant or turning away? There is only a fearful dread waiting for us, having made the Cross (death) of Christ void for us.

 

[Christ's Minister]

Your questions seem to be based on a misunderstanding.For instance,who told you that Christians no longer need to fear judgement or wrath?Jesus frequently threatened people with hell.Most disturbing,He always became angry when He talked about the most common sin in our churches today,hypocrisy.Even George Bush has been accused of hypocrisy by the leaders of his own church because ofhis violence in Iraq and his discrimination against the poor , and they are requiring him to repent for his sins.(no luck so far)Of course we can be forgiven for our sins if we stop them.Asking for forgiveness and then continuing the sin opens us up to the charge of hypocrisy.We do of course have the God given freedom to live our lives any way we wish,which is why Jesus came;to lead us down a moral path and influence us to avoid a sinful lifestyle.

 

[Triangulation]

Thanks good answers so far, in my opinon.

I think you asked a good question Christ's Minister. Maybe something does seem like a misunderstanding to you in my statment. I can offer this as an answer.

Because we as Christians have been justified by faith in propitiation through Chirst and His redemption. I am completely forgiven and fully pleasing to God. I am totally accepted by God. Not by my own works but by what He did.

John 3:16-21

Romans 5:1 Therefor since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:21-22 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now He has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in His sight, without blemish and free from accusation.

<><

(This response is not intended for debate please do not try to begin one because of this. any further questions directed toward me, please send in message and I will reply if I feel it becomes necessary.)

God bless.

 

[night2day]

When Jesus stopped the mob that was about to stone the adulterous, He reminded that them they all have sinned, Then He told the adulterous to sin no more. Obviously she was going to sin again. Obviously people in the mob were going to sin again. To say we as believers no longer commit the act of sin is like believing a tremdous lie...

In John 8 Jesus was being set up by being asked by the religious leaders should the women be stoned in accordance to the laws of Moses. Interesting and revealing they caught her in the act of adultery since they neglected the other party who would have also needed to have been there committing adultery with her...the guy. Where was the guy? If the religious leaders were serious about this, they wouldn't be presenting Jesus with a situation without both parties as the law of Moses commanded.

The woman was being used. Jesus saw through the hypocrisy of the others and called them on it. It was much akin to saying: "You accuse her of her sin while blatantly displaying your own?" I would think. All the Pharisees could do was drop their stones and leave. Their own sin condemned them.

To the woman who already knew the price of her own sin, he forgave her of. And remember it wasn't something he had offered to the Pharisees even though they recognized their own sin. They showed no repentance.

The Scriptures don't say what happened to the woman after this.

Jesus called the sinners to repentance during His Earthly ministry just as He Commanded us to spread the Gospel.

Is wrong in the eyes of God to allow personal choices and freedoms of individuals who are making mistakes and the missing the mark just as we are? Is it wrong to take away that freedom, like wise what about the groups or people that want to take away Christian freedoms, like esembly and worship in the name of religion?

Whether or not a Christian sins isn't the issue. We're still sinners. As long as we live on this Earth we'll continue to struggle against what St. Paul called our "Old Man" and our "New Man" in Christ until the day of our deaths.

What separates a Christian from a non-Christian then is a Christian has complete forgiveness of sins. They are repentant of sin, struggle against it, want no part of it, and know they have forgiveness of it by Jesus' shed blood. Tis why a Christian is considered a "sinner and a saint" at the same time. A non-Christian does not have this forgiveness.

If we are free to sin then why did He come? If we are not free to sin then why did He come? I see it as we shouldn't sin but when we do sin we are forgiven. What do you think?

You described a portion of repentance which is basically committing sin, asking for forgiveness, and knowing you are completely forgiven in Christ alone.

As you're namesake quoted way back when:

"If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world." -- Martin Luther (1521)

 

[StevenL]

"If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world." -- Martin Luther (1521)

Now there's a good HORROR for Halloween.

​

 

[night2day]

"If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world." -- Martin Luther (1521)

Now there's a good HORROR for Halloween.

Horror?

 

[ChristianMuse]

Sort of the saying... shall we sin that grace may abound? I got your point. This thread will hang on the same point as the rest hang and war on... once saved always saved vs. one sin lost again...

I hope not.

 

[Theophorus]

Sort of the saying... shall we sin that grace may abound? I got your point. This thread will hang on the same point as the rest hang and war on... once saved always saved vs. one sin lost again...

I hope not.

LOL

Maybe it might not completely digress if it could consider the nature of repetance and its soteriological role.

 

[night2day]

Sort of the saying... shall we sin that grace may abound? I got your point. This thread will hang on the same point as the rest hang and war on... once saved always saved vs. one sin lost again...

I hope not.

Eh...I took it as saying: "Take this stuff seriously!"

 

[Wiffey]

Noone who lives is without sin. We live in an imperfect world, in a fallen environment. When Adam & Eve rebelled against God, we were evicted from Paradise and death, sickness and sin came into the world.
We cannot hope to be perfect in this world, and I believe that Christ's mercy is sufficient for me, a sinner.
The Orthodox view sin as a sickness. We view Christ as the physician of our souls and bodies and the Church as a spiritual hospital. By participating in the Holy Sacraments we open ourselves up to receive God's healing grace. As we grow in Christ we become spiritually stronger and are better able to withstand the assaults of the Enemy.

Wiffey

 

[Triangulation]

I would hope people don't sin just to find forgivness. I hope people are brighter then that. I know there have been a few that tried that idea, personaly I would'nt recomend it.

<><

God bless.

 

[night2day]

I would hope people don't sin just to find forgivness...

If they intentionallyplanned to sin and with the intent to ask for forgiveness...where's the repentance in any of that? There is none!

Repentance consists of several parts:

knowing one has sinned
being repulsed by sin
being heartily sorry for all one's sin, both known and unknown
asking for forgiveness
&
knowing one is forgiven

Luther's Quote speaks of something different:

"If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners..."

We are all sinners. And we all need God's mercy in Christ. Some, unfortunately take this rather lightly, not understanding sin, it's nature, or the nature of God's mercy and what this all means for us.

...Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world." -- Martin Luther (1521)

Acknowledge your sins and realize how grievous they in the site of our Holy and Just God, and rejoice in the great Love and Mercy we have through Jesus Christ's person and work.

 

[ChristianMuse]

"Godly sorrow leadeth to repentance, and that not to be repented of"... so the scripture says, I think.