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Where does morality come from?

Moral Orel

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Laws are objective, and if you are guilty under the law, that is based on an objective fact
Exactly!
Guilty under the law is different than morally wrong. Laws are objective thus guilty is objective language; morality is subjective thus right/wrong is subjective language
But you want to use "judge" for both objective and subjective things! And right and wrong are objective words.

Teacher: Can anyone tell me what 2+2 is?
Sally: 5?
Teacher: Wrong! Anyone else?
Suzy: 4?
Teacher: Right!

No it isn’t. Nobody judges ice cream to be right, because the taste of ice cream is not a moral issue
Why isn't it a moral issue? I like chocolate ice cream, so I should eat chocolate ice cream, therefore I judge the eating of chocolate ice cream to be right. You dislike murder, so you shouldn't murder. Therefore you judge murder to be wrong. Exact. Same. Thing.

Now with subjectivity, I could like murder and judge it to be right, and I wouldn't be wrong, because it's just a personal preference. So you say murder is wrong, I say murder is right, and we're both correct. You see how ridiculous that looks? If you stop trying to maintain the facade of objectivity, then it works very differently. You say you dislike murder, I say I like murder, and we're both correct. See how that sentence actually functions properly?
 
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Ken-1122

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Why isn't it a moral issue? I like chocolate ice cream, so I should eat chocolate ice cream, therefore I judge the eating of chocolate ice cream to be right. You dislike murder, so you shouldn't murder. Therefore you judge murder to be wrong. Exact. Same. Thing.
Your ice cream preference does not affect other people, murder does. That’s why murder is a moral issue, Ice cream is not
Now with subjectivity, I could like murder and judge it to be right, and I wouldn't be wrong, because it's just a personal preference. So you say murder is wrong, I say murder is right, and we're both correct.
Correct is the wrong word to use here. We both believe we are right.
You see how ridiculous that looks? If you stop trying to maintain the facade of objectivity, then it works very differently. You say you dislike murder, I say I like murder, and we're both correct. See how that sentence actually functions properly?
No that sentence does not function. You keep using the term “correct” when you should use right. Nobody says murder is correct/incorrect, they say right/wrong because correct/incorrect is reserved for that which is verifiable/objective. The right/wrong of murder is not verifiable.
 
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Moral Orel

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Your ice cream preference does not affect other people, murder does. That’s why murder is a moral issue, Ice cream is not
Whether or not my actions affect other people has nothing to do with whether or not something is a matter of morality. That isn't anywhere in the definition of morality. I can have morals even if I'm deserted on an island alone. Care to try again?

Correct is the wrong word to use here. We both believe we are right.
No, we don't believe we are right, we are expressing our personal preferences which is neither right nor wrong. See? You think that subjectivism means making a guess about a fact. You treat it the same as saying, "In my opinion, a multiverse is the cause for the origins of our universe". In this case, I might be right or I might be wrong. If I say "Murder is wrong" I can't possibly be right or wrong; why in the world would I believe I'm right? Morality doesn't deal in facts, so "right" and "wrong" aren't the correct vernacular.

No that sentence does not function. You keep using the term “correct” when you should use right. Nobody says murder is correct/incorrect, they say right/wrong because correct/incorrect is reserved for that which is verifiable/objective. The right/wrong of murder is not verifiable.
It is an objective fact that I personally like chocolate ice cream. And you're saying that "correct" isn't the right word to describe that objective fact. You're going off the rails here, buddy.

"Correct" and "right" are synonyms, just like "wrong" and "incorrect". If you don't mean "correct" then you shouldn't say "right"; if you don't mean "incorrect" you shouldn't say "wrong". People use "right and wrong" when talking about morals because other than us subjectivists, people think they're dealing in facts. Once you realized there are no moral facts, you should have shed the objectivist language. It's more honest.

Bottom line is that instead of saying what you mean, which is more accurate, you want to use words associated with objective facts to mask your personal feelings in a veneer of objectivity. It's the same reason that objectivists use the same words; you feel your phrasing makes your words carry more weight because it's important to you.
 
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stevevw

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If you go to the Bible you will find that it tells us that God gave us the ability to contemplate the consequences of our actions and to classify those consequences as desirable or undesirable. In other words, He gave us the ability to construct a workable subjective morality.
Actually he gave us His moral laws so that we had a measure we could use that tells us when we meet that law (our conscience doesn't accuse us) and when we don't (our conscience accuses us). We don't construct moral laws as God did already.

We just have to live by it or not. The only thing we can construct is any position our free chooses which can decide that subjective moral values/standards is all there is. The problem is we know God's laws and we are continually reminded of these by our moral experience.

So how does this verse from the same Bible fit in? Romans 2:14-16

Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the work of the Law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them.

And in case you think that these laws being written about were just laws of nature and already around this verse dispels that.

Hebrews 10:16
"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."
 
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stevevw

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You are getting you philosophical advice from William Lane Craig. I don't take his seriously at all. He is completely wrong on far too many topics.
That's an ad hominem logical fallacy. You need to explain why his logical arguments don't work.
 
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Ken-1122

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Whether or not my actions affect other people has nothing to do with whether or not something is a matter of morality. That isn't anywhere in the definition of morality. I can have morals even if I'm deserted on an island alone. Care to try again?
I said moral issue, not whether or not you have morals. Other people will make your opinion on murder a moral issue. If you are on a desert Island alone, there will be no moral issues unless you make them.
No, we don't believe we are right, we are expressing our personal preferences which is neither right nor wrong. See?
No, that’s Nihilism; not subjective morality; do you know the difference?
You think that subjectivism means making a guess about a fact. You treat it the same as saying, "In my opinion, a multiverse is the cause for the origins of our universe".
If you are 100% convinced a multiverse is the cause for the origins of our Universe, that is a lot more than just making a guess about a fact, that is making a claim.
In this case, I might be right or I might be wrong. If I say "Murder is wrong" I can't possibly be right or wrong; why in the world would I believe I'm right?
The same reason you would believe you are right under objective morality.
doesn't deal in facts, so "right" and "wrong" aren't the correct vernacular.
Right and wrong are not limited to facts.
It is an objective fact that I personally like chocolate ice cream. And you're saying that "correct" isn't the right word to describe that objective fact. You're going off the rails here, buddy.

"Correct" and "right" are synonyms, just like "wrong" and "incorrect". If you don't mean "correct" then you shouldn't say "right"; if you don't mean "incorrect" you shouldn't say "wrong". People use "right and wrong" when talking about morals because other than us subjectivists, people think they're dealing in facts.
That's a pretty big claim you're making; care to back that up? Or am I just supposed to take your word for it.
Once you realized there are no moral facts, you should have shed the objectivist language. It's more honest.

Bottom line is that instead of saying what you mean, which is more accurate, you want to use words associated with objective facts to mask your personal feelings in a veneer of objectivity. It's the same reason that objectivists use the same words; you feel your phrasing makes your words carry more weight because it's important to you.

Definition of CORRECT
Correct:
1.To make or set right
2.To alter or adjust so as to bring to some standard or required condition

Definition of right | Dictionary.com
Right:
*In accordance with what is good, proper, or just
*In conformity with fact, reason, truth, or some standard or principle: Correct

When I say murder is subjectively wrong, I am referring to the first example given for “right”. When I say Math is objective, I am referring to both definitions of “correct”, and the second definition of “right”. Does that clear things up?[/QUOTE]
 
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stevevw

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Of course objective morality does not exist. I never claimed it did.
I think you may have misread what I said. I said to use the fact that people agreed on the moral values used to determine the crimes against humanity in the Nuremberg trial disproves objective morality is also a logical fallacy. I am not saying you support objective morality. Only that saying because humans can agree on morals there is no need for objective morals does not prove objective morals don't exist.

The point is who says that the agreed morals in the Nuremberg trial were objectively right in the first place to be used to condemn others as though they were objectively right. Under subjective morality, there is no standard to determine this. Only human opinion and even agreed human opinion doesn't say anything about what is ultimately right or wrong. We have seen humans agree on a lot of things they thought was morally right only to find it was morally wrong. Humans are fallible, unreliable, and untrustworthy to assess what is right and wrong.
 
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Kylie

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So are you saying that any punishment is morally wrong because that is not the case? Your daughter's punishment may be whatever you feel appropriate such as make her pay it back, perhaps in doing jobs around the house, grounding her, talking to her about why taking other people's stuff is wrong and the value of money, etc. Of course, the death penalty would be an extreme reaction.

No, I'm not saying that, and I don't see how anyone could think I'm saying that.

I'm saying certain punishments would be commonly viewed as too harsh, such as the death penalty. And I'm asking you to put your alleged objective morality to use and tell me what the most morally correct punishment is.
 
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Kylie

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But you're not letting me. You are trying my hands and forcing me to only have two options. Under objective morality, people would try everything to avoid anyone being killed. Their aim is not to kill one and save 5. As the best choice in a bad situation, they may decide to go down the track with the one person on it as a last resort but that doesn't mean they have intended or think it is a good idea to kill that one person. This is the worst option of a bad situation.

So I guess you could say it the person ends up running the single person down they have taken the best option to minimize the harm. But what you seem to be thinking is that objective morality means absolute morality where a person can never do a wrong and breach that objective moral no matter what. That is not how objective morality works and you can ask scholars who study morals and ethics as a specialist topic.

So you're claiming it isn't fair because you don't like the options? Too bad. Life isn't fair, and we have to deal with it.

I think you are throwing in complicating issues that don't need to be there and muddying the waters. For one there isn't always diverting tracks for trolleys to change lanes and avoid running down a person so the person will be run down. Second, they are on the road where pedestrians are not supposed to be and therefore people are putting themselves in harm's way. So they are taking the risk and its not the driver's fault.

Third is they are self-driving it is obvious they will be self breaking and will immediately stop when they sense a person or object in front of them. Maybe that's what the driver in the trolley situation should have had. But then I guess they had an emergency brake but they were not allowed to use that.

Stop trying to squirm out of it. You asked, I provided.

OK so the people were allowed to try different things to avoid the situation though not completely successful. But I am sure they evacuated those homes as it seems they had time. If they didn't bother then that would be immoral. The point is by trying to avoid the situation they are acting morally.

Do you make a habit of not reading the links I provide? Or did you just not read this one? Because it clearly says in there: "A pregnant woman asleep in one of the houses was injured but managed to escape through a window and was uninjured by the lumber and steel train wheels that fell around her." What part of that indicates to you that they evacuated people?

I just told you in the previous post that if the driver is not allowed to try anything else as you have shown in real life they do then the best option is to go down the track with the one person. That would be the objectively right thing to do in that situation.

Please show me how you determined it was the OBJECTIVELY right thing to do.

No, I have used a cross-section of examples like stealing, getting drunk, having an affair, general misconduct.

But you have to remember once again I only need to show that there is objective morality in one example. Extreme examples get the job done quickly because they are more clear cut not because they are complicated and unreal like your examples but because they are simple and straight forward. The point is my examples though extreme are realistic and fairly common, do happen and can happen to anyone.

Nah, you're wrong.

If you claim that all morality is objective, then I only need to produce one counter example to prove you wrong.

But if you are saying ALL morality is objective, you can't produce just one example and then say it proves all morality is objective. If I wanted to claim that all sheep are black, I can't just produce one black sheep and say it proves my point.

What do you mean where these objective morals are established.

If there is some source of morality, some source that tells us objectively what is right and what is wrong, then what is this source?

Isn't that science. Science makes certain assumptions and then finds observational evidence to support that assumption. I have shown you lived moral examples of how people react and act like there are objective morals and contradict their own subjective moral positions. This is observational evidence.

No, that is not science. Science does not come up with an idea and then cherry pick evidence to support that idea.

Science looks at the evidence, formulates an idea, and then tries to disprove that idea. If the idea CAN'T be disproved, then we say that it is likely to be true.

But I acknowledge that going down the track with a single person would be the best option under the circumstances. So now you have show how this proves there are no objective morals.

There may be people who believe it is morally wrong to take any action that results in a life being lost. They believe that INACTION is the better option. Are you saying they are morally wrong for refusing to do something that directly results in a death? And what if the one person is a child, but the five people on the other track are elderly?

I don't know about objective morality but I would find it hard to not switch it to the 5 people and live with the consequences. Probably would be the worst thing to do and I would end up living to regret it and my wife would say you should have taken my life.

But obviously the right thing would still be to take one life even though it was my wife than 5 people though like I said in real life I am not sure I could do that. Now can you show me how this proves there is no objective morals.

You've already done it. You've just said that you would find it hard to accept what you claim is objectively right.
 
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Caliban

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That's an ad hominem logical fallacy. You need to explain why his logical arguments don't work.
That is not an ad hominem, read more closely. I would be glad to address each one of WLC's foolish claims, just not on this thread--it has already traded far from ethics and morality at times.
 
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Kylie

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That is not what the logical argument is talking about when it is using the lived experience of the physical world. What you are talking about is a measurement of objectivity as in science. Lived experience as it implies is our experience through our senses that our physical surroundings are what they are.


Hey, you're the one who said it's objective. Don't start complaining now that you can't describe it objectively.

You are really sitting at your computer writing your reply to me rather than being a brain in a vat that has been fed a virtual reality of you sitting at your desk writing your post to me. We can be justified in believing from our experience that we do live in this physical world as we experience because there is no defeater that can absolutely show we should not be justified in thinking that.

Ah, but you can't claim it's an objective 100% true fact, can you?


The same goes for our moral lived experience. We can be justified that our morally lived experience tells us and shows us through the way people react and live that there are objective moral values. Until there is a defeater of our experience that would show that our morally live experience was mistaken and absolutely unreliable that we could not realize objective moral values and duties at all.

No we can't. If people had subjective values, the idea works just as well.

That defeater would have to be a great as any defeater that would show our experience of the physical world is wrong and we are actually brains in a vat experiencing a virtual reality of our physical world. We so far have no defeater for either.

That's not how it works. I don't need to prove that we ARE brains in a jar in order to show that we can't be sure we aren't brains in a jar. I just have to point out that there is no test that will objectively show that the brain in a jar idea is wrong.

I think like other objective morality it is within us. As I mentioned telling a big lie is usually associated with other moral wrongs like deceit, greed, covering a wrong such as stealing, to gain something, etc. Telling a small lie to not hurt someone is usually associated with a good moral IE to avoid harming someone which may cause them more harm (hurt feelings, depression, unable to cope, lost friendship).

It is within US.

But we are all different. So the morality that is within ME is going to be different to the morality that is within YOU.

Hence morality is subjective.


There is no objective value of a "like or dislike". How can you say that liking chocolate cake is objectively right.

Most people like living. That shared like that we all live is proof that like is objective.

Same exact logic you are using. If it works for you, then it works for me, and liking is objective.

Yes, I agree.

And different people can hold different moral positions.

For example, some people can think that it's morally right for the state to execute a rapist, while other people can think that the same situation is morally wrong.

Eating or not eating meat is more of a convention than a moral and is only applied to a particular culture.

Is it moral to breed animals solely for the purpose of killing and eating them? Yes or no.

We all view everything through our own lens. But we can still separate that when there are objective truths to be known. Some people can still perceive physical objects differently but there is an objective truth to be found. So if they are open to finding that truth they will abandon their personal opinion and see the objective truth. The same with morals. We all have a subjective view but we can be open to finding objective morals.

Except people can't.

Well yes people have free will and they can choose to go along. The point is how do you convince them if it is only your opinion. It is like trying to convince a person who hates chocolate cake to like chocolate cake. There is no way you can show and then convince others about your opinion that chocolate cake is the best is objectively right.

Why would I want to convince people to do that? Why would I want to force my morals on someone else?

But I am showing more than a moral wrong just being an agreed opinion. As I mentioned those who claim subjective moral positions will often contradict their own position when wronged by the moral they said were subjective. They react like it was objectively wrong and that it is always wrong. So something within and beyond them is working against their own subjective position.

No you haven't. You've just SAID you;ve done it, but you haven't actually done it.

Ever heard of free will. If there are an objective right and wrong and free will, people can choose the wrong act thus ignoring, denying the objectively right thing to do. When someone goes to steal something they usually know it is wrong and a flash of conscience comes over them. But they ignore that for whatever reason IE I need/want it and cannot afford it and therefore steal anyway.

And that's perfectly explainable by subjective morality as well.

That is a different topic. But for Christians, it is God through Jesus Christ. Christ's teachings are easily known in the New Testament. In fact, there was a time when society used Christian moral values as their guide and still do to some extent. God's laws (commands) become a Christians moral duty. The level we conform to God's standards determines how closely we are upholding God's laws.

So having a source of objective morals also acts as the measuring stick. Having an external source for morals that is perfectly good and infallible gives us confidence that this is the right best thing to do rather than basing it on fallible humans. It also brings consequences beyond this world which can motivate people to do the right thing rather than think they can get away with it.

God commanded soldiers to kill all the men and all the women who weren't virgins. But all the women who were still virgins, he told the soldiers to keep for themselves. Is that morally good?

God also killed the firstborn of all the Egyptians to make a point to Pharaoh. Was that morally good, killing babies for the crimes of another?

It is one thing to logically support that there are objective morals and another to prove the source of those morals. It is harder to prove God or any transcendent being who people say sets the objective moral laws.

Surely all you;d have to do is prove that such objective morality exists.
 
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Kylie

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I don't necessarily want to get into debating the Old testament as it is another big topic. But I will just say that the interpretation you have posted is wrong and out of context. Evil in the Hebrew can be translated into several meanings such as “adversity, affliction, calamity, distress, misery.” If you look at all the other versions they use these words rather than evil as in evil as a moral. This fits better as you see the first part says God makes light and then the opposite dark. The second part He makes peace and creates calamity is more consistent as that is the opposite of peace.

Ah, the old, "But you're taking it out of context!" argument.

Funny how nobody ever worries about the correct context when it agrees with what they believe.

But isn't the way people act/react a true indication of what they really believe. So if they claim subjective moral positions and act like there are objective moral positions what is the true measure of what they believe.

People can really believe something that is a subjective opinion, you know.

I gave a list of examples in another post Today at 6:14 PM#1483.

And I disagree with your examples.

Yes that is what I have been saying and that's what people do without even realizing it. Substitute Turkish delight with the moral and you will see what I mean in how unreal it is. If there are no objective rights and wrongs under subjective morality and they are only "likes and dislikes" then it is like imposing your tastes or likes on others when you say that they are wrong and should follow and act more like your moral position.

It would be like when a person says what that person did is evil and totally wrong. They should not be even thinking or doing stuff like that. Everyone knows that this is wrong and that is right. You could change it to
What that person likes is evil and totally wrong. They should not be even be liking or eating stuff like that. Everyone knows that liking that is wrong and preferring this is right.

I've already said quite clearly that people acting like their moral views are objective does not actually make them objective. So would you please stop using the argument, "People act like their morality is objective, so that's evidence that it is objective."


But how do you know its a crooked line (an angle) without a straight line? I think we have gone over this part before.

Place a circle so the center of the circle is on the line. Make a mark on the circumference of the circle where the line crosses the circumference. Travel around the circumference of the circle from one mark to the other, measuring how many degrees you travel. If the answer is anything other than 180, then the line is not straight.

Fair enough. They can do that with themselves. But when the expect others to do the same and impose that they should behave the same way it is then making your behaviour right for others as well. And that is what people do.

Not this again...

Would you please stop using the argument, "People act like their morality is objective, so that's evidence that it is objective."

But this is different to stopping and reasoning and thinking about it and coming to a conclusion based on evidence/logic that the opposite thing is right. The person holds a conviction that something is subjective. It is not just about changing minds. It's exposing the truth about what they really believe in a moment when they are off guard and react.

Not just that like Dawkins example people proclaim that subjective morality is all there is and therefore should behave like that and not force their morals onto others. That is not just a change of mind but a moral stance. They are not even aware that they live a contradiction morally.

Not quite following you here.

I was pointing out that people can form their morality by using their own empathy for others, even if it's not the same for every person. And that makes morality subjective.

So go back to the blue folder example. Is the student just acting like people do or does this example expose his hypocrisy and show how unreal people are when they claim certain things but in reality (when applied to real situations) it doesn't work?

Your example is supposed to be about morality, yet it uses the prof's personal taste. That makes it no different to the chocolate cake example that we've also used, and you said that can't be used as an example of something objectively right. So why do you think it works here?

And therefore the way they act is not a true indication of what is going on. Didn't you acknowledge earlier that under subjective moral positions people should only apply their moral views to themselves?

No, I said that people can only expect their moral views will influence themselves, not others. I will act according to my moral views. You will act according to your moral views.

You're making it sound like I was saying, "Stealing is wrong, so if someone steals from me then it is wrong. If someone else has their stuff stolen, I won't care because that's up to their moral views, not mine." And that's just not the case.
 
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Moral Orel

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I said moral issue, not whether or not you have morals. Other people will make your opinion on murder a moral issue. If you are on a desert Island alone, there will be no moral issues unless you make them.
So I made chocolate ice cream eating a moral issue. I find a stash of it and I have to decide whether I should eat it or not. Chocolate ice cream is good, so I should eat it. Same exact thing when we talk about more serious topics like murder. Murder is bad, so I shouldn't do it.

No, that’s Nihilism; not subjective morality; do you know the difference?
I don't think you know what moral subjectivism is. Here's an intro:

BBC - Ethics - Introduction to ethics: Subjectivism

Some excerpts:
"Subjectivism teaches that there are no objective moral truths out there."

"Moral statements are just factual statements about the attitude the speaker holds on a particular issue."

If you are 100% convinced a multiverse is the cause for the origins of our Universe, that is a lot more than just making a guess about a fact, that is making a claim.
What are you talking about?

The same reason you would believe you are right under objective morality.
When I make a moral statement I recognize that I am neither right nor wrong, but merely stating a personal preference (the actual definition of moral subjectivity). So no, I don't "believe I'm right". That's nonsense.
Right and wrong are not limited to facts.
They are as follows from your second definition. Using the other definition is obfuscation.
That's a pretty big claim you're making; care to back that up? Or am I just supposed to take your word for it.
Which claim? That I love chocolate ice cream? You said that isn't correct. Which is crazy.

Or that "correct" and "right" are synonyms? Look at the second definition for "right" that you posted.

Or that people only use "right" and "wrong" because they think morality is objective? Us subjectivists are the only ones who recognize that it isn't, that's what makes us subjectivists. If you believe there are moral facts, then of course you would use synonyms for "correct" and "incorrect". We can deduce the evidence for that claim straight from the definition of subjectivism.
Definition of CORRECT
Correct:
1.To make or set right
2.To alter or adjust so as to bring to some standard or required condition

Definition of right | Dictionary.com
Right:
*In accordance with what is good, proper, or just
*In conformity with fact, reason, truth, or some standard or principle: Correct
lol You're comparing a verb to an adjective.


When I say murder is subjectively wrong, I am referring to the first example given for “right”. When I say Math is objective, I am referring to both definitions of “correct”, and the second definition of “right”. Does that clear things up?
Sure. So going with your definition of "right" I can say that I judge eating chocolate ice cream to be right because chocolate ice cream is good.

I get why you still use "right" and "wrong". You don't know what subjective morality is, and you're actually an objectivist. You believe there are moral facts, we just can't ever know what they are, so we make guesses. Maybe we're correct about those guesses, maybe we're incorrect about those guesses. That isn't moral subjectivity.

When you say "murder is wrong" you're using the first definition for "right" that you gave (i.e. not right). When you say "You believe you are right" that murder is wrong, you are using the second definition for "right" that you gave. You're interchangeably using terms to obfuscate.
 
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stevevw

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No, I'm not saying that, and I don't see how anyone could think I'm saying that.

I'm saying certain punishments would be commonly viewed as too harsh, such as the death penalty. And I'm asking you to put your alleged objective morality to use and tell me what the most morally correct punishment is.
OK, so any action has to be justified as being morally good in that situation. The death penalty cannot be justified as morally good for taking money from a purse under objective morality as taking of a life for an unjustified reason is wrong. But the death penalty for certain serious crimes like murder may be justified as an appropriate punishment to ensure more people are not murdered. In other words, it upholds the sacredness of life.
 
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stevevw

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Ah, the old, "But you're taking it out of context!" argument. Funny how nobody ever worries about the correct context when it agrees with what they believe.
But the claim about it being out of context is not based on a belief. It is based on logic. If there is more than one meaning for evil then it is logical that more than one meaning could apply. If the first part of the verse talks about opposites in light and dark then it is logical that the second part follows the same. The interpretation of evil is inconsistent. Therefore the opposite is something opposite to peace and calamity best fits that consistency.

But that is not the only logic. The rest of the bible says there is no evil in God. If God created evil then he is evil. That is inconsistent with the entire Bible. That is what is meant by context. You do realize you have been pleading context with your arguments. We all do and it is important.

People can really believe something that is a subjective opinion, you know.
If people really believed in subjective morality then they would react like certain things are really morally right and wrong. Because they believe there is no objective right and wrong and morals are only about "likes and dislike" just like food taste. So when someone does something wrong they shouldn't condemn them. Why condemn someone for liking chocolate cake for example. They are only expressing their subjective preference for something and there are no moral values involved.

And I disagree with your examples.
Why.

I've already said quite clearly that people acting like their moral views are objective does not actually make them objective. So would you please stop using the argument, "People act like their morality is objective, so that's evidence that it is objective."
You obviously cannot see the logic here. This goes back to the logical argument posted earlier. So it is like saying that people acting like the physical world is what it is doesn't make what we see and observe what it is. We really could be brains in a vat just being what we experience.

Place a circle so the center of the circle is on the line. Make a mark on the circumference of the circle where the line crosses the circumference. Travel around the circumference of the circle from one mark to the other, measuring how many degrees you travel. If the answer is anything other than 180, then the line is not straight.
You are not seeing the logic here either. If there are only straight lines then there is no circumference that allows you to measure the different angles. There can be nothing whatsoever to allow a person to determine, workout what an angle is. Otherwise, an angle already exists as the mathematical equation. But in this scenario angles don't exist only straight lines. What your doing is sneaking the possibility for angles into the scenario through back doors When you do that you now have a comparison/opposite with a straight line. But you cannot have that in this scenario.

Not this again...

Would you please stop using the argument, "People act like their morality is objective, so that's evidence that it is objective."
OK I will let you address the same question above which applies to this situation as well and then we can move on.

Not quite following you here.

I was pointing out that people can form their morality by using their own empathy for others, even if it's not the same for every person. And that makes morality subjective.
But if there is no objective morality to give empathy its meaning then you could not come to the conclusion that empathy is a moral value in any way, shape, or form. It won't even come close. If all we are is chemicals and biological processes then it would be just impulses, jerks, and fizzing and at best "likes or dislikes". As Dawkins puts it "there is no evil or good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference".

Acting without empathy and being callous or apathetic towards others would not be morally wrong but just be acting out of fashing, on likes based on biological processes that have been ingrained in us. So there would be no distinction between treating someone like yourself or treating them horrible. It is your giving empathy any moral "good" value that I am saying can not happen under subjective morality.

Not just that like Dawkins example people proclaim that subjective morality is all there is and therefore should behave like that and not force their morals onto others. That is not just a change of mind but a moral stance. They are not even aware that they live a contradiction morally.
Your not understanding. Under subjective morality, if there are no objective morals they cannot even take a stance as that implies a "should or ought" and there are no "should or ought" if there are no objective moral values.

Your example is supposed to be about morality, yet it uses the prof's personal taste. That makes it no different to the chocolate cake example that we've also used, and you said that can't be used as an example of something objectively right. So why do you think it works here?
The professor/teacher is not using his or any moral tastes or position at all. He is reflecting the student's own position "that there are no moral right and wrongs and everything is subjective" back onto him. So he is pretending to take the students view to prove a point.

No, I said that people can only expect their moral views will influence themselves, not others. I will act according to my moral views. You will act according to your moral views.
Then I hate to say this then why do people expect others to act in accordance with their moral views. I thought as you have just pointed out they they should not do this under subjective morals. If they do are they acting more objectively.

You're making it sound like I was saying, "Stealing is wrong, so if someone steals from me then it is wrong. If someone else has their stuff stolen, I won't care because that's up to their moral views, not mine." And that's just not the case.
No, I am saying hypothetically. That you may take a subjective position that stealing is OK if it allows a person to better their life if they were down on their luck for example. But when someone steals from you in that situation you react like it was wrong and contradict your moral position.

Does this show that deep inside you that you really know that stealing is always wrong?
 
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stevevw

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That is not an ad hominem, read more closely. I would be glad to address each one of WLC's foolish claims, just not on this thread--it has already traded far from ethics and morality at times.
Ok, tell me why he is wrong. Anything I have quoted from Dr Craig has been directly related to this thread. I don't want to get into a debate about him or his overall philosophy but rather the things directly related to this thread. What he says is not just held by him by the way, including nonreligious people. .
 
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Inkfingers

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Morality comes from the nature and needs of intelligent creatures (making and maintaining) lasting social order. They are self-evident, built into our underlying nature, and there to be discovered by the logos in man.

That's why the Ten Commandments are so blindingly obvious in a :doh:manner. Honour the creator, honour your parents, stop killing each other, stop stealing each others stuff (including spouses), and stop resenting what others have. DUH! In fact I can almost see God saying "DUH!" at the end of them. :sorry:
 
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stevevw

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So you're claiming it isn't fair because you don't like the options? Too bad. Life isn't fair, and we have to deal with it.
But life is realistic. Humans are not robots and they wouldn't just cardboard cutouts sitting at the controls of a trolley unable to do anything. You still haven't shown any situation where this is the case.

Stop trying to squirm out of it. You asked, I provided.
You are saying that automated cars will either run down a person or swerve into something else causing harm or damage. How is stating the facts about automated cars also having automated brakes squirming out of it? You seem to want to create these unreal situations to prove your point.

Do you make a habit of not reading the links I provide? Or did you just not read this one? Because it clearly says in there: "A pregnant woman asleep in one of the houses was injured but managed to escape through a window and was uninjured by the lumber and steel train wheels that fell around her." What part of that indicates to you that they evacuated people?
OK fair enough. But it seems that this situation did not comprise of intentions to hurt or kill people. By the time the controller had been told that there were houses on track 4, it was too late to divert the carts or evacuate anyone. The point is they tried everything to advert harm or death so there is no intentional breach of morals. Your trolley example wants the driver to be a dummy driver and not try anything like they have chosen the best and only option is to run down someone. That's unreal.

Please show me how you determined it was the OBJECTIVELY right thing to do.
In that situation that would be the objectively right thing to do. Remembering that objective morality doesn't mean absolute morality in that we are never allowed to kill period. You keep getting objective morality mixed with absolutes. Objective morality means there is always an objectively right or wrong action in any given situation independent of human opinion. But, not that morals are set in stone for all situations as with absolute morality.

Nah, you're wrong.

If you claim that all morality is objective, then I only need to produce one counterexample to prove you wrong.
But if you are saying ALL morality is objective, you can't produce just one example and then say it proves all morality is objective. If I wanted to claim that all sheep are black, I can't just produce one black sheep and say it proves my point.
That's a false analogy fallacy (tongue twister, say that 5 times fast). Proving that there is objective morality is about whether there is something or not and not about whether there is more of one thing rather than another that already exists. So taking your sheep analogy I am only proving that sheep exist. I only have to do that once.

If there is some source of morality, some source that tells us objectively what is right and what is wrong, then what is this source?
For Christians this is Gods moral laws that are expressed through Christ's teachings. For others, it may be whoever that transient moral lawgiver is. But the nature of objective morality would mean there is only one transient moral lawgiver.

No, that is not science. Science does not come up with an idea and then cherry pick evidence to support that idea.
That is not how an assumption works in science. Science operates on the assumptions that natural causes explain natural phenomena, that evidence from the natural world can inform us about those causes, and that these causes are consistent.
Basic assumptions of science

Assumptions such as "All phenomena have natural causes", "nature is materialistic" and "knowledge is derived from the acquisition of experience".

Science looks at the evidence, formulates an idea, and then tries to disprove that idea. If the idea CAN'T be disproved, then we say that it is likely to be true.
No, the evidence comes later. First science makes educated guesses about something which is like an assumption based on a limited amount of information. Then they seek evidence to support that assumption. They can also make predictions so that they can narrow down what to look for.

Science doesn't look to disprove anything. It seeks to verify something through evidence. But it is hard to prove something with a negative. For example, showing that there is no evidence for God doesn't mean there is no God. Science would have to be all-knowing to do that. That is why I say that showing one example of objective morality can verify objective morality. But trying to disprove objectively morality withy a negative (that it is non-existent in a specific situation) will not verify that there are no objective morals.

There may be people who believe it is morally wrong to take any action that results in a life being lost. They believe that INACTION is the better option. Are you saying they are morally wrong for refusing to do something that directly results in a death? And what if the one person is a child, but the five people on the other track are elderly?
Like I said This situation is hard to determine. But that doesn't mean there is not an objectively right thing to do in this situation. The fact that there is a child I think doesn't make much difference. people use a child to give some emotional weight to their argument. But it is still life. In certain situations, a child makes a difference such as abuse as their innocence is being taken advantage of.

That is why I say in real life people will try everything to save everyone. The train cart example you gave those involved tried to do everything and this makes a difference as they are not just willingly ploughing into people. Therefore they are doing the right thing though it may not work out they are not morally culpable.

You've already done it. You've just said that you would find it hard to accept what you claim is objectively right.
No this does not prove anything. I have already shown why such as a negative doesn't prove anything and its a logical fallacy.
 
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stevevw

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Yes. He gave us a general rule for the construction of a subjective morality.
The only general rule Christ gave was when he said there are two laws that people need to uphold that cover all God's laws.
Matthew 12:30-31
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’

This is not subjective but an objective command, a moral obligation and duty towards God and others. This doesn't mean we can determine how the laws can be thought of and applied. It actually tells us on what basis all the laws are to be understood. So there is no room for personal opinions. Remember Christ said, Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them".
Mathew 5:19
Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches
others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So God still expects his laws to be upheld.
 
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stevevw

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Reasonable person believe stealing is wrong. To say it’s okay then protest when done against you makes you a hypocrite; not a subjective moralist
But when entire societies are going against their own subjective moral positions you begin to think is this hypocritical or an indication that there is something to why so many people act against their own moral position. If one or two do it maybe it's coincident. But when many do it over and over it becomes a representation of what they really believe.

That would be an example of an ignorant teacher who doesn’t understand objective vs subjective. This teacher apparently is under the false impression that objective wrong is somehow superior or more meaningful than subjective wrong; an obvious example of the blind leading the blind such a person should not be in a position of teaching.
This was actually a true situation and no one thought the teacher was ignorant. The teacher wasn't taking any moral position but merely reflecting back to the student their own moral position to show them how unreal it was. The teacher ended up giving the student an "A" anyway as he was just making a point.

The rest of your rant you keep making the same mistake over and over again so I don’t feel a need to comment on each mistake with the same response.
Care to try again? Please provide an example of somebody who believes morality is subjective, yet talk about morals as if they were objective.
OK as I said generally individuals and society take a subjective position on morality. Go onto any secular debate site, social media, or check out the comments section of any article that is about someone that has done the wrong thing like a politician or celebrity. Isreal Folau is a good example. People lambasted him on social media saying how bad and wrong he was. Rugby Australia said he broke their code of conduct which was based on a moral not to discriminate.

Now if there are no moral objectives under subjective morality on what basis were they determining that Folue or anyone had done something wrong. It was just their opinion and they had no way of determining if they were right objectively. So they had no right to say his morals were wrong. Now times this by 100s of examples we see on all the above sites and you will begin to understand how people under a subjective moral system are acting objectively.

Whenever they promote or protest that certain things are wrong about others they are pushing their subjective moral position onto others and society. Here are some examples in picture form.
upload_2020-5-4_22-17-19.png upload_2020-5-4_22-18-14.png
eb38b4c269649782144a513b965ea4fd.jpg
images


All these are average representations of how people and society take their subjective moral views and force them onto others thus taking an objective moral position. This happens 1,000s of times on social media, comment columns, in business and politics with codes of conduct and organizations like the UN who even force the world to conform.
 
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