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Where does morality come from?

Discussion in 'Ethics & Morality' started by ACatholicRose, Apr 28, 2019.

  1. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    I think you admit to using faith in GPS, as it auto corrects arrival times according to updating conditions (which I admit that it cannot control), but it still requires faith in a device. And secondly I think the pivotal argument for me is my definition of faith.

    so since you disagree that faith is just trust, I figure I would quote a dictionary for you.

    "Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
    ‘this restores one's faith in politicians’

    faith | Definition of faith in English by Lexico Dictionaries

    oxford dictionaries I hear are the best.

    the primary definition is how I define faith, it also defines faith as a type of religion, not based on proof.
    but that is the secondary definition. The primary definition, the one I am using is the first most primary definition. Of which you would be having faith in a GPS.

    lastly if you ask a Christian to define faith, they will almost universally say it's "trust."

    Because it's not a belief in something that is faith, it is actually putting your trust in something, and yes it is without solid proof.

    but trust in general is without proof as I have verified in my last post.
     
  2. Kylie

    Kylie Defeater of Illogic

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    And yet you don't give a link to the article on this site.
     
  3. Kylie

    Kylie Defeater of Illogic

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    My faith in my GPS is based on its proven track record. In other words, I have evidence.

    I will agree that this is ONE definition of faith. But I do not blindly trust my GPS. There have been cases where GPS has lead people to the wrong place, and through impassable roads. I do NOT have complete trust.

    If you are reduced to quibbling over the definition of FAITH, perhaps in an attempt to claim that the same definition applies to my faith in my GPS and your faith in God, then you're going to find I am far from convinced.

    And yet my faith in my GPS is indeed based on evidence, isn't it?
     
  4. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    It said on the top of the peer review where it was from
    I could not find it, but in searching i found many studies, all of which we summarized in this article:

    here is a concluding quote from the bottom:

    "
    the growing body of scientific evidences indicates some bio-effects and possible adverse health effects of Radio Frequency Radiation (RFR) which merit further investigations.”[20]

    The American Cancer Society (ACS) states that “The IARC classification means that there could be some risk associated with cancer, but the evidence is not strong enough to be considered causal and needs to be investigated further. "

    a government peer review site:
    US National Library of Medicine
    National Institutes of Health
    link below:
    Mobile phone use and possible cancer risk: Current perspectives in India


    furthermore a study on male mice, found a decrease in sperm count among mice under long term exposure to radiation found in cell phones:

    2.45-GHz microwave irradiation adversely affects reproductive function in male mouse, Mus musculus by inducing oxidative and nitrosative stress. - PubMed - NCBI
     
  5. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    so you admit that you use faith, so there we have it. That is all I wanted. I have faith Jesus died for my sins based on evidence. Eye witness accounts. See "Cold Case Christianity" - I really liked that book. You should check it out if your really open to the evidence of Christianity.


    Most healthy churches don't teach a blind faith, but incorporate statistical evidence such as prophecy, and other events that legitimize the Biblical account.



    I don't need to convince you, just have a logical argument for why that is the case.
     
  6. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    When he said he had a proven track record concerning his GPS, why did you make the leap that he had faith? Faith does not equal a proven track record.
     
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  7. Kylie

    Kylie Defeater of Illogic

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    You did not give a link to your original article on any peer reviewed website.

    So you can't find the article on any peer reviewed website and the ones you can find say that there is not enough evidence to conclude that there is a causal relationship between mobile phones and cancer.

    You need to learn to choose your battles better, because this is one that you aren't winning.
     
  8. Kylie

    Kylie Defeater of Illogic

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    Oh, for crying out loud, I have been as clear as I possibly can be that my faith that my GPS works is DIFFERENT to your faith in God! Why do you refuse to grasp this very simple point?

    lol, I've never seen any such evidence from anyone.

    Of course, if you actually HAD a logical argument for God, you would convince me.
     
  9. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    That is different. Flat earther's have a belief that can be falsified. Most atheists have no belief in a god and are making no claims. Believers have no falsifiable claims yet to be able to convince an atheist god exists. And as I pointed out your god won't allow you to convince everyone of the gospel anyway.
     
  10. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    Not according to the bible.

    Dictionary.com
    noun
    noun: faith
    1. 1.
      complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
      "this restores one's faith in politicians"
      synonyms: trust, belief, confidence, conviction, credence, reliance, dependence; More

      antonyms: mistrust
    2. 2.
      strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
      synonyms: religion, church, sect, denomination, persuasion, religious persuasion, religious belief, belief, code of belief, ideology, creed, teaching, dogma, doctrine
      "she gave her life for her faith"
      • a system of religious belief.
        plural noun: faiths
        "the Christian faith"
      • a strongly held belief or theory.
        "the faith that life will expand until it fills the universe"
    How Christians use faith and how your bible defines faith more fits the second definition.

    "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Heb 11:1.

    Faith is assurance in something simply because you hope for it and are sure of things you cannot see. This can be used to believe anything. I hope that Bigfoot is real and I am confident it exists even though I have never seen one. This is from gotquestions.org about faith:

    "Thankfully, the Bible contains a clear definition of faith in Hebrews 11:1: “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” Simply put, the biblical definition of faith is “trusting in something you cannot explicitly prove.”

    The bible also says without faith (or belief without sufficient evidence) you cannot please god or be saved. Why do so many Christians then try to prove that god exists?
     
  11. quatona

    quatona "God"? What do you mean??

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    Well, the existence of cell phones is not in dispute, I hope. Thus "having faith (in the existence of) God" and "having faith that cell phone will not give you cancer" are two different things. False equivocation.
     
  12. FredVB

    FredVB Regular Member

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    It would come down to God explaining what no God does not explain. That is logical basis to believe there is God. That God is good the way we can understand it, loving, and caring for us, is faith, with trusting what is believed to be revelation for it, though that doesn't have to be blind faith, when there are many evidences for what is believed to be that making it distinct. That there is God as necessarily existing is still the explanation for what otherwise is impossible to explain.
     
  13. FredVB

    FredVB Regular Member

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    We indeed cannot say anthing at all that will get any others who do not want to conclude that there is God to see that there really is God, though there is great order existing, everything of the universe would be very fine-tuned for its physical constants such as the gravitational constant to be just right for any life to be possible in a viable universe coming from a big bang, we are here presuming we can know from what we find what real truth of reality is, we have no physical explanation for any of the nonphysical things we believe in such as real love, real value, real justice, without God, and we who will see it say that God explains all the universe with us in it and they don't have anything at all to explain the universe coming into being, when it certainly did have a beginning, and there is something then which is necessary existence, which would explain the universe with us in it coming to be. Even if they don't want to acknowledge God to be that, they have no logic against there being something that is necessary being, whether it be Brahma, Quetzacoatl, Tezcatlipoca, Ptah, Azathoth, or anything else, known or unknown, that is not itself something brought into existence by anything else, but is existing necessarily. But we can believe what we see has abundant evidence.
     
  14. Tinker Grey

    Tinker Grey Wanderer Supporter

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    Dude, have you never been taught how to write a sentence! (The 1st sentence is 223 words.)
     
  15. durangodawood

    durangodawood Dis Member

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    Gosh do I need to have "faith" that my phone exists now?
     
  16. stevil

    stevil Godless and without morals

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    You use "god" as a default place holder for the unknown. This is god of the gaps, god of the ever shrinking gaps. A god that gets smaller and smaller with each scientific discovery.
    You are not presenting evidence for a god, but are appealing to lack of evidence for something else as being "evidence" for a god of some sort.

    Most atheists are comfortable in the position of "unknown".
    For example, why does the moon always have the same side facing earth as it orbits the earth?
    It would be an incredible feat of coincidence to have its rotation exactly match its orbit so that it always presents the same side exactly facing the earth. It is almost impossible to think this would be a coincidence, it is so finely tuned that god must have done it.
    But then scientists discover the gravity concept of being "tidaly locked". Oh so, its not a coincidence, Oh we can explain it with the natural forces, shrugs.

    So, before humans understood the concept of tidal locking, should they have assumed "god did it" or should they just have said "it is unknown why this happens"?

    If you don't currently have a scientific explanation for something, should you just conclude that "god did it"?
    You do know that science is a method of discovery. If we already knew everything, we wouldn't need to do science. If our answer to everything is "god did it" then we wouldn't bother with scientific discovery, we wouldn't learn anything, we wouldn't discover stuff, we wouldn't advance.
    We would look at stuff and say "wow, god did it". It seems to me to be very intellectually lazy, and would stagnate us as a species. We would become (and stay) the most ignorant "intelligent" life in the universe. But at least we would believe in god, right?
     
  17. stevevw

    stevevw inquisitive

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    Humans intuitively know that certain things are right and wrong through their conscience regardless of relative circumstances unless they have a mental disorder and are incapable of thinking rationally. People may come up with examples of how morals only apply to themselves but when they are wronged they will usually protest as though there are universal morals.

    So if there are objective morals then there has to be a moral lawgiver such as God as they have to come from beyond subjective human thinking. As God's nature is all good He is the source of objective good and this is given to us in His moral laws for which we are obligated to follow. If objective morality does not come from God then it has to be explained why something is ultimately right or wrong and why we ought to do good and not do evil? Otherwise, for humans, if there is no objective right and wrong then there is no argument against someone who kills your family or takes your possessions.

    So the argument would be

    1. If God does not exist, objective moral values do not exist.
    2. Objective moral values do exist.
    3. Therefore, God exists.

    The Moral Argument for God's Existence
    The Moral Argument for God's Existence - NAMB
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2020
  18. Speedwell

    Speedwell Well-Known Member

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    The only difficulty see with that argument is that it creates the false dichotomy that moral precepts either come from God or that they are the product of "subjective human thinking." or even personal whim.
     
  19. Kylie

    Kylie Defeater of Illogic

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    So, the First Cause argument?

    That's been debunked.
     
  20. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    Not so ... there are many many MANY scientists that believe in creation/God, studying in all areas of science and have and do discover many things ... faith does not preclude nor define ones intelligence nor does it dismiss the curiosity of the how and why.

    Also ... in His Word He says we are to observe (study) things ... discover them ... we do endeavor to understand His designs.

    The study of science is the same ... the difference is ... one either comes from a point that it was designed and tries to understand the how and why ... or ... one comes from the point of gazillions of happen chances as reasons for the how and why ... and neither has 100% physical proof of either.

    The universe is extremely vast and is beyond our ability to study it throughly ... but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't .... of course we should and we do and faith does not exclude that pursuit of understanding.
     
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