Where does it say...

[Faithful83]

I thought I had read something maybe in 1 Timothy or 2 Timothy ... somewhere in the new testament - that basically supported the view that the Bible is 100% truth. I'm interested in locating that, but I'm not finding it. Does anyone else know what I'm talking about or am I imagining something that's not there?

 

[Borealis]

I thought I had read something maybe in 1 Timothy or 2 Timothy ... somewhere in the new testament - that basically supported the view that the Bible is 100% truth. I'm interested in locating that, but I'm not finding it. Does anyone else know what I'm talking about or am I imagining something that's not there?

It depends on what you mean. Is the Bible 100% true and accurate? Yes; 2 Tim 3:15 (DRV) states "All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice".

However, is the Bible 100% OF truth, as in, is all truth contained within it? No bible verse states that.

 

[Faithful83]

Thank you. I believe the 2 Tim verse was what I was looking for.

 

[Truth and Reconciliation]

However, is the Bible 100% OF truth, as in, is all truth contained within it? No bible verse states that.

And you're right. We should look to Tradition and the teachings of the Church. =)

I'm serious, BTW.

 

[Dad Ernie]

And you're right. We should look to Tradition and the teachings of the Church.

I'm serious, BTW.

How young and naive. We are told by Jesus: Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. At the time, this pretty much covers the entire OT. Then in the NT it was determined that the books that were to be included were in fact inspired of God and held on a par with the OT. In fact the NT is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, thus it holds the keys to the OT. Churches are composed of FALLIBLE men. Paul spoke of building on any other foundation than the one already given which is Christ.

Once a person accepts Christ and follows Him, he is given the Holy Spirit who will lead them unto all truth - God's Word is TRUTH. Not man's, for His ways are higher than our ways, and we are to interpret the "spiritual" (the Word of God) WITH the "spiritual" (the Holy Spirit).

One of the biggest problems the Sanhedrin had was their reliance on "tradition". Read the Gospels to see what Jesus thought of them and their "traditions".

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[Kaitsu]

Hi Dad Ernie

I was interested in your above post concerning traditions and church teachings mentioned by Truth and reconciliation:

How young and naive. We are told by Jesus: Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. At the time, this pretty much covers the entire OT. Then in the NT it was determined that the books that were to be included were in fact inspired of God and held on a par with the OT. In fact the NT is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, thus it holds the keys to the OT. Churches are composed of FALLIBLE men.

I do agree with you that churches are composed of fallible men, otherwise we wouldn't have so many differences in approach. But when you say of the NT that "it was determined that the books that were to be included were in fact inspired of God", who actually did determine this? Was it not also a group of fallible men? We can only trust that those people were inspired by God in their work (which I also believe - Indeed, the evidence that they were so inspired is found in the experience of millions of people and their bibles throughout the centuries since its compilation).

But in the same way, is it not possible that other individuals have similarly been inspired by God in their writings? The NT does not provide answers to everything (e.g. age of baptism) and therefore is there not also room to listen to the thoughts and beliefs of the many great minds that have applied themselves to these issues through the ages, and whose opinions have often crystallised into various traditions simply because they have been found to be true or reliable?

You say that "Once a person accepts Christ and follows Him, he is given the Holy Spirit who will lead them unto all truth - God's Word is TRUTH". I also agree with you here (except that I do not hold that we all have the "whole" Truth, rather it is fed to us as part of a growing process - but that is another matter). Therefore, my question to you is: If Christians are fed the Truth by the Holy Spirit why should we assume their beliefs are "man-made" as soon as they talk about it to anyone? If such a person speaks that Truth out loud, how does it suddenly becomes "man's" Truth and no longer God's, and therefore not worthy of being listened to?

In addition, if the bible itself is God inspired, why should we ignore Paul's clear instructions concerning teachers and teaching? For example, he says of Christ that:

"It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." Eph 4:11-13

and

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God." Col 3:16

What was the point of these evangelists, pastors, and teachers,etc if we are not supposed to listen to them?

In fact Paul even says of Scripture itself that:

"All Scripture is Godbreathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness" 2 Tim 3:16

Personally, I think there is a lot to be gained from reading the thoughts of others who have already devoted their own lives to searching the Truth, why should we all have to always start from scratch? However, I would readily agree with you that there are also severe dangers lurking in other people's works, and I would also agree that one should not adopt other views without testing them against the bible and in prayer, as Paul says:

"Test everything. Hold on to the good. Avoid every kind of evil." 1 Thess 5:21,22

Paul was clearly aware of the tendency to teach things other than the gospel and emphases that:

"You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine." Titus 2:1

But is there not a happy medium whereby we learn through the Spirit, but can still benefit from the vast work of other people, and still share our truths with one another?

Kaitsu

 

[daveleau]

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[Dad Ernie]

But is there not a happy medium whereby we learn through the Spirit, but can still benefit from the vast work of other people, and still share our truths with one another?

Greetings Kaitsu,

Acts 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

I believe you have found the "happy medium" whereby we can enjoy the testimony of a "multitude of counselors", yet as "good Bereans", we must also measure every word spoken of by man with the True Word of God. God's Word IS TRUTH, and we must never allow man's interpretation to alter, add to or take away from that, for those who do, know the rewards for their misbehavior in handling the Word of God.

At one time, the Catholic Church was by their own admission and declaration the sole source of interpretation of all things that were considered Holy, and in particular the Word of God. Only in fairly recent years have they allowed their parishiners to read the Bible and determine the course of their lives FROM IT. This used to not be the case.

But I do not want to get into a Catholic bashing here, so I will choose the Mormon religion to bash, as I think we can mutually agree that they are a CULT. The Book of Mormon was derives from a set of Golden Plates given to Joseph Smith (supposedly) by a supposed angel. It is made clear in the NT that "even if an angel were to come and preach another gospel...." So from the outset we see there is a problem. Then when we, being Good Bereans, examine further many of their doctrines, we see a stark contrast between THEIR god and the God of the Bible.

We are told that "the Gospel of Jesus Christ IS the power of God unto salvation". This is the message and premise for our belief, and the ONLY POWER in all of creation by which we must be saved. The church will not save us, the Pope will not save us, an Orthodox preachers will not save us, a Reformed preacher will not save us. Nor will the traditions of men save us.

But we are WISE to FIRST "seek the Kingdom of God and His righteousness" and as He, through the Holy Spirit, leads us to fellowship with other like-minded believers, we may gain knowledge and understanding through the experiences of others, BUT with great care and pains to observe the reality of those experiences as compared with the TRUE WORD OF GOD.

I have a list of several "preachers/orators/teachers/theologians" which I greatly admire and listen to very carefully. I also look to historical figures that have written great commentaries of the Bible. But in no case, do they eliminate my duty to "search the scriptures daily to see if what they say is true."

So if in fact you have found this "happy medium", you do well, and you are to be commended.

My Blessings to you and your studies of God's Word,

Dad Ernie

 

[Kaitsu]

Hi Dad Ernie

That was a great explanatory post - thanks!

regarding:

I have a list of several "preachers/orators/teachers/theologians" which I greatly admire and listen to very carefully. I also look to historical figures that have written great commentaries of the Bible. But in no case, do they eliminate my duty to "search the scriptures daily to see if what they say is true."

I think this is an excellent summary. There is a big difference between sharing and exploring thoughts whilst checking against scripture and prayer, and just absorbing someone else's views 'cos they sound impressive or they are a charismatic character.

As you say, searching Scripture is a primary "duty", not just a pastime. We can expand on it through discussion, but never replace it

P.S. I am very new to this site, and I noticed there is an empty moderator post above? Have I done something wrong here? Perhaps I'm drifting too far off-topic? (I assumed the question of this topic had already been dealt with and there was little harm in digressing into this other point). You seem to have been around for some time so please correct me if I'm out of line here.

Kaitsu

 

[Borealis]

How young and naive. We are told by Jesus: Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. At the time, this pretty much covers the entire OT. Then in the NT it was determined that the books that were to be included were in fact inspired of God and held on a par with the OT. In fact the NT is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, thus it holds the keys to the OT. Churches are composed of FALLIBLE men. Paul spoke of building on any other foundation than the one already given which is Christ.

Indeed. However, we'll be disagreeing on what the foundation actually is, won't we?

Once a person accepts Christ and follows Him, he is given the Holy Spirit who will lead them unto all truth - God's Word is TRUTH. Not man's, for His ways are higher than our ways, and we are to interpret the "spiritual" (the Word of God) WITH the "spiritual" (the Holy Spirit).

One of the biggest problems the Sanhedrin had was their reliance on "tradition". Read the Gospels to see what Jesus thought of them and their "traditions".

Good question. Matt 23:2-3: The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice.

Note that he doesn't say, 'as long as it's written down in Scripture.' In fact, he tells people explicitly to do what they say. He criticizes them for NOT following the traditions. And in fact, those traditions were necessary for the proper functioning of the priesthood. Don't believe me? Try reconstructing the procedure of a sin offering from nothing but the Old Testament. It can't be done. There are instructions missing from the Scripture that could only have been fulfilled if they were passed down through Oral tradition.

Where did you get the Bible you read daily? Where did you get the canon? You got it from men. Specifically, as a Protestant, you got it from one man, Martin Luther, who removed certain books because they did not fit HIS idea of what Christ's teachings were. Remember, Luther did not only remove the deuterocanonical books; he also removed James, Jude, Hebrews, and Revelation from the New Testament (they were later reinstated). And since that time, every Protestant denomination has followed a man-made tradition. And Sola Scriptura itself is a man-made tradition; it does not have any biblical support.

"But the Jews said those books weren't really Scripture!" Yes, they did...fifty years after Christ had been crucified. They also rejected the entire New Testament, because they rejected Christ as the Messiah. Do you agree with them as well? I didn't think so. Those seven books were removed by the Jews because they included some messianic prophecies that pointed straight at Christ. Read Wisdom 13:12-24 and tell me that's not pure prophecy.

Speaking of tradition, why do you claim to reject it and solely accept the Bible? That's obviously a false statement, aside from the composition of the Bible itself. When do you celebrate Christmas? Easter? Those aren't deliniated in the Bible, are they?

Jesus held Oral Tradition in high regard; to claim otherwise is to ignore His own words. He spoke of the seat of Moses, remember? Where is the seat of Moses discussed in the Old Testament? It's not. It was an oral tradition passed down through the descendants of Levi. And not everything Jesus did and taught is written down; read the last part of John's Gospel.

 

[reformedfan]

And you're right. We should look to Tradition and the teachings of the Church. =)

I'm serious, BTW.

Yeah, I doubt it. Is it God's Word cuz men say so, or cuz God Sez so? As far as a verse that the Bible is 100 % true, how 'bout Numbers 23:19

 

[Peter A.V.]

I thought I had read something maybe in 1 Timothy or 2 Timothy ... somewhere in the new testament - that basically supported the view that the Bible is 100% truth. I'm interested in locating that, but I'm not finding it. Does anyone else know what I'm talking about or am I imagining something that's not there?

2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God,and is profitable for doctrine,for reproof,for correction,for instruction in righteousness:
Ps 12:6,7 The words of the LORD are pure words:as silver tried in a furnace of earth,purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them,O LORD,thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
Ps 119:140 Thy word is very pure:therefore thy servant loveth it.
Ps 119:151 Thou art near,O LORD;and all thy commandments are truth.
Ps 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple,and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth:for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
Pro 30:5Every word of God is pure:he is a shield unto them that put thier trust in him.
Pro 30:6 Add thou not to his words,lest he reprove thee,and thou be found a liar.
Deut 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word that I command you,neither shall ye dimminish ought from it,that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book,if any man shall add unto these things,God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy,God shall take away his part out of the book of life,and out of the holy city,and from the things that are written in this book.
Jer 26:2b ..diminnish not a word.
There is plenty of proof if you read and believe the Holy Bible,Now known as the King James Authorized version,1611.