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I see a lot of eisegesis and no exegesis here.The Antichrist does not invade Israel. He will be living in Israel, Jerusalem, the Jews thinking he is the messiah.
Three years, thereabouts, from the confirming of the Mt. Sinai covenant by have the law read to the nation, the Antichrist will commit the transgression of desolation act.
The Antichrist's armies will already be in Israel and the middle east countries acting as so-called peace keepers.
So he does not have to invade Israel, because his armies will already be in the region following Gog/Magog.
Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
Jamdoc, do you see that - "and he shall magnify himself in his heart"? That is when he begins thinking he has achieved God-hood.
This has more biblical backing than the pre-70th week Gog and Magog idea, though Ezekiel 38 and 39 have parallels with Revelation 16 and 19, and Ezekiel 38:17 again, God asks a rhetorical question that identifies Gog as the one who God warned about repeatedly by the prophets. The prophets warn about Antichrist, in particular Daniel, who is Ezekiel's contemporary.
Ezekiel 38 is giving more information about Gog and Magog from Revelation 20 the attack of the nations (of unbelievers) upon the nation of Israel at the end of the 1000 millennium, inspired by satan
That is not reasonable in light of the following verse, for example.
Ezekiel 38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD
Imagine, Christ has been bodily present on the planet for an entire thousand years, but it is not until a thousand years later when the Lord will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they finally shall know that He is the LORD. Nothing involving Ezekiel 38-39 is meaning a thousand years after Christ has returned. If anything in Ezekiel 38-39 is involving Revelation 20, and maybe it is, all that would mean is that this proves Amil thus disproves Premil. Because, for one, there is no way to apply a thousand years post the 2nd coming to that of Ezekiel 38:23, and it then making sense of that verse, the fact every single person on the planet will undeniably know who the Lord is the very second He bodily returns. They don't need a thousand years to figure that out.
That is not reasonable in light of the following verse, for example.
Ezekiel 38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD
Imagine, Christ has been bodily present on the planet for an entire thousand years, but it is not until a thousand years later when the Lord will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they finally shall know that He is the LORD. Nothing involving Ezekiel 38-39 is meaning a thousand years after Christ has returned. If anything in Ezekiel 38-39 is involving Revelation 20, and maybe it is, all that would mean is that this proves Amil thus disproves Premil. Because, for one, there is no way to apply a thousand years post the 2nd coming to that of Ezekiel 38:23, and it then making sense of that verse, the fact every single person on the planet will undeniably know who the Lord is the very second He bodily returns. They don't need a thousand years to figure that out.
None of this addresses my point regarding Ezekiel 38:23. Explain your reasoning involving that verse, how the Lord can be bodily on the planet an entire thousand years, but that none of the nations even notice.Really plain to me
And I will bring him to judgment with pestilence and bloodshed; I will rain down on him, on his troops, and on the many peoples who are with him, flooding rain, great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
This is true...
but yeah, the Revelation 20 mention of Gog and Magog is one of the more confusing things in scripture for me. As everything about Ezekiel 38 and 39 seems to line up with the final 3.5 years and Antichrist.. except the mention in Revelation 20, as Gog would have already been cast into the lake of fire, why's he mentioned at the end of the Millennium?
But if it's meaning the End of the millennium.. how has Jesus been bodily ruling as King of the Earth for 1000 years... and THEN this revolt happens and THEN Jesus is magnified and everyone will know Him? Wouldn't everyone have known Him for the past 1000 years?
None of this addresses my point regarding Ezekiel 38:23. Explain your reasoning involving that verse, how the Lord can be bodily on the planet an entire thousand years, but that none of the nations even notice.
Ezekiel 38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD
Revelation is mostly in chronological order.Now, as to Douggg's argument on this, I can clear that up.
The first half of the 70th week if you do not take Revelation to be in 100% Chronological order and do foolish things such as have Jesus claim His kingdom in Revelation 11:15 and then give authority BACK to Satan so Satan can give it to Antichrist in Revelation 13:2... well anyway, the first half is actually peace and safety, peace and security. There is a covenant made for 7 years, and mid way through, Antichrist breaks it.
So rather than Gog/Magog being exclusively about Armageddon, it's about the invasion that starts around the midpoint, and carries all the way to Armageddon.
so again, 2 places Gog and Magog can fit biblically:
1. The last 3.5 years of the 70th week, where Antichrist breaks the covenant with Israel that established their peace
2. After the Millennium, where the saints have ruled the world in peace until Satan is let back out.
I can see biblical support for both, and 1 key problem for both.
View 1 has the parallels with Armageddon, and it fits Antichrist's covenant and then breaking the covenant 3.5 years in, however it has the problem that Gog and Magog are mentioned at the end of the Millennium in Revelation 20.
View 2 has .. being in Revelation 20, but has the problem of there being a 7 year aftermath of the invasion that doesn't really seem to fit into Revelation 20 jumping from fire destroying them... to the great white throne of judgement... biblically speaking, it seems like Earth is destroyed in Revelation 20 at the end of the Millennium, then there's the judgement, and then New Earth.
tranquil, what started the 70 weeks was Daniel's prayer. It is this simple....At the mid-point of what you call the 70th week is the 7th Trumpet. This breaking the covenant is what triggers Daniel's Chapter 9 prayer and starts literally 70 weeks to finish the 'transgression' (the breaking of the covenant).
The gog magog prophecy was written in an era that was Israel Centric so it's hard to tell what it was talking about since Ezekiel's prophetic ministry was very much about play acting that needed an explanation.No, I'm not pre-trib.
what I'm doing is questioning a particular teaching I've heard, mostly from pre-trib rapture believers that the war of gog and magog is also before the 70th week, and that in fact, Gog refers to Putin and Magog is Russia. I see no evidence for any of that in scripture so I wonder where it comes from.
There are people who right now as the war is going on in Ukraine, believe we shouldn't even oppose Russia at all because Russia is "destined" to win, they claim Russia is in bible prophecy, and we are not so they must single handedly be destroyed by them so we should just roll over and let them do whatever they want.
It's eisegesis taken to the worst extent in my eyes.
They never think that the bible doesn't actually mention Russia, and Magog in Ezekiel's day was in Turkey, they rely on a teaching that the Magog people migrated to Russia, or they believe that while 596 times in the bible "Rosh" means "head" or "chief", you know the thing that has primacy, but these other 2 times it means "Russia", and even if it DID mean Russia it doesn't necessarily mean the current nation. Leadership can change, an entire government can collapse and the country can be invaded and conquered over time. It's the land mass that's what's referred to not a specific ethnicity.
They just think "well Putin is Gog of Magog so we should just let him do whatever he wants because we know he's gonna win until God destroys him, but the Ukrainians should just roll over and die because he wills it"
That is a good point and Daniel 7 also has thisThere is something else to consider.
Ezekiel 39:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
We then have this---there shall they bury Gog---vs---And the beast was taken---cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone
If Gog is the AC, and that the AC is the beast, how is that he can be both buried and taken alive and cast into the LOF still alive, at the same time?
So you have the beast slain, the body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. which fits neither Ezekiel 39 where the body is buried, nor Revelation 19, where he is cast alive into the lake of fire.11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
So this is about the King of Babylon but I'd argue that it's about the king of Babylon the great at the end of the age, not historical Babylon4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
5 The Lord hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.
7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
So here, this king of Babylon, who is equated to an Angel who fell from grace, so I'd say. Antichrist, here he's buried but it's like not a kingly burial.12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
I see Revelation as being 2 parallel narratives. That is why the 140,000 are mentioned twice, that is why there's 2 "Day of the Lord" type passages, after the 6th seal in Revelation 6, and in Revelation 14:14-20 In Revelation 14 Jesus is specifically on the clouds and in Revelation 6 it's the signs Jesus gave us in Matthew 24, and you have a bunch of unbelievers wailing and mourning and asking to be hidden from the face of someone they don't even believe exists, so I believe it's implied that they see Him on the clouds.Revelation is mostly in chronological order.
The kingdom of heaven arrives at the 7th Trumpet - and so does the beast from sea. It is not Jesus that is giving authority to the beast, it is the dragon giving authority to the beast. It is an illegitimate government in the face of a legitimate government.
Armageddon (the 6th bowl war) involves both the marriage supper (which kills the beast & false prophet) and then separately the Gog war.
The tribulation probably could be said to be 7 years (we will see what happens on May 19th), but what you call the '70th week' (Daniel 9:27) starts at Revelation 10. The mighty angel is 'swearing an oath' to heaven and earth (which Jesus said not to do, anything other than a yes or no is 'from the evil one' Matthew 5:33-37). Oaths are part of a covenant (Psalm 105:9 is but one of many showing this correlation). This mighty angel is Satan who is 'coming down like lightning', like an 'angel of light'. The 'rainbow' at Revelation 10:1 is also signifying the peace covenant.
At the mid-point of what you call the 70th week is the 7th Trumpet. This breaking the covenant is what triggers Daniel's Chapter 9 prayer and starts literally 70 weeks to finish the 'transgression' (the breaking of the covenant).
well the prophecy does state that it's about the latter times, and refers to Israel being brought back into the land, so either it'd have to have taken place immediately after the babylonian captivity but before AD70, or it's referring to the Jews having come back into the land after being scattered again in AD70. Since this didn't happen in the past then it is future prophecy even from our perspective.The gog magog prophecy was written in an era that was Israel Centric so it's hard to tell what it was talking about since Ezekiel's prophetic ministry was very much about play acting that needed an explanation.
Or it was fulfilled based on what was originally said by God, like the messiah prophecies.well the prophecy does state that it's about the latter times, and refers to Israel being brought back into the land, so either it'd have to have taken place immediately after the babylonian captivity but before AD70, or it's referring to the Jews having come back into the land after being scattered again in AD70. Since this didn't happen in the past then it is future prophecy even from our perspective.
That's a misconception, that all old testament prophecy was already fulfilled. I see that taught by a lot of people and have friends who parrot it, as a result he doesn't read much of the Old Testament, or they read it one and done with just the assumption that it was all fulfilled in the first coming, and that the new testament contains all the prophecy we need to concern ourselves with.Or it was fulfilled based on what was originally said by God, like the messiah prophecies.
The pharisees missed the messiah because they had a misconception about Him based on reading the prophecies like a regular book. We do the same thing today.
the prophecies of the old testament do not need to be fulfilled today, though we may see one of many ripple effects through the timeline.
This is first coming, it's been fulfilled, during Holy week during Christ's ministry, and afterwards, with the spread of the gospel.9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.
The Lord seen above in the clouds... the Lord blowing a trumpet... His people delivered and lifted up above the land....14 And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
15 The Lord of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.
16 And the Lord their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.
Everyone thinks Paul is mystical and just got this doctrine through direct revelation, but Paul got this doctrine from the Old Testament.15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
It is the soul of the Antichrist that is in hell in Isaiah 14 - and then cast out of hell, in God's disdain for him. His body, though, is never buried, verse 20.So here, this king of Babylon, who is equated to an Angel who fell from grace, so I'd say. Antichrist, here he's buried but it's like not a kingly burial.
Good point! I have also wondered where it was said that the Prophets predicted Gog is coming? My prior thought was that the prophecy in Eze 38-39 is the prediction and the battle at the end of the Millennium is the fulfillment.Ezekiel 38
I'm failing to see where God ever warned about a "penultimate dictator prior to the 7 year tribulation" that many people's view of Gog and Magog revolves around.
I see warnings about just antichrist in particular.
There is also the finality of the passage, Ezekiel 39:
So according to the Gog/Magog is before the 70th week view.. you have this miraculous victory by God.. which God says His name won't be polluted any more and the heathen would know Him.
But then you turn around and have Antichrist the most blasphemous person to ever exist? Doesn't jive.
There is also language in the passage that is very much like Armageddon, a feast for the carrion birds, and being slain in the mountains and the open plain, along with an Earthquake that seems to be the same one as in Revelation 16.
So my question is... where did this idea of a pretrib Gog and Magog battle come from? From the text itself.. it sounds like Armageddon to me. I know the identifying Magog as Russia and Gog as like, Putin, comes from when the Soviet Union was established, to you know, make our enemies the enemies in the bible.. but
where did the idea that Gog wasn't just.. Antichrist come from?
Someone taught it, because it doesn't come from the text.
I read that you're just saying stuff. Thanks for the discussion.That's a misconception, that all old testament prophecy was already fulfilled. I see that taught by a lot of people and have friends who parrot it, as a result he doesn't read much of the Old Testament, or they read it one and done with just the assumption that it was all fulfilled in the first coming, and that the new testament contains all the prophecy we need to concern ourselves with.
But the reality is, much of new testament prophecy, is them teaching old testament prophecy to a new audience, with the enlightenment that the Messiah is God in the flesh so it actually involves a lot more than they had originally thought about the Messiah
Passages like Zechariah 9 contain both 1st coming and 2nd coming passages, parts that have been fulfilled, and parts that have not been fulfilled yet:
This is first coming, it's been fulfilled, during Holy week during Christ's ministry, and afterwards, with the spread of the gospel.
However after that comes part that is not yet fulfilled
The Lord seen above in the clouds... the Lord blowing a trumpet... His people delivered and lifted up above the land....
Ringing any bells?
1 Thessalonians 4
Everyone thinks Paul is mystical and just got this doctrine through direct revelation, but Paul got this doctrine from the Old Testament.
Paul didn't see all of Zechariah 9 fulfilled in Jesus' earthly ministry and death, burial and resurrection, Paul expects this part of it to be fulfilled at the second coming.
Things like this are why I stress the importance of Old Testament, don't assume Old Testament is just some stuff for Jews and that all we need to know is New Testament and Jesus.
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