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Where do I belong?

Shane2336

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I've been a Baptist (Southern) for my entire life. Well, perhaps until recently. I'm not certain. Hence, this post. I feel like I haven't budged, and my denomination has absolutely derailed. I've noticed (over the years) that the level of disagreement and conflict among Baptists is dizzying. And something that concerns me, quite a bit, is how Dispensationalism is running RAMPANT through Baptist churches. It has effectively become a staple, it seems. (I know many here agree with it, but I cannot adhere to it.) A denomination that was once very conservative and grounded in covenant theology is now absolutely all over the place. (Can I even call it a denomination anymore? I'm not sure.) I could visit ten different Baptist churches and find 32 different theological systems. I'm looking for continuity, structure, and stability. A defined system that is adhered to. Sadly, I'm not finding this among my Baptist brothers anymore. This is what discourages me. There are confessional standards, but they've been thrown to the wayside.
To be completely candid, I'm finding some solace in Calvinism. Why not the PCA or OPC then? There's just one hangup. I have not yet found an answer for paedobaptism. And it's certainly not for lack of trying/searching for one! I see the argument for it but it hasn't convinced me. Again, I could certainly adhere to the paedo practice, but I need something more than personal opinions or tradition. If this were not an obstacle for me, I'd be right at home in the PCA or OPC. I'm looking for some input here. I need some help. I need a home!
 

chevyontheriver

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I've been a Baptist (Southern) for my entire life. Well, perhaps until recently. I'm not certain. Hence, this post. I feel like I haven't budged, and my denomination has absolutely derailed. I've noticed (over the years) that the level of disagreement and conflict among Baptists is dizzying. And something that concerns me, quite a bit, is how Dispensationalism is running RAMPANT through Baptist churches. It has effectively become a staple, it seems. (I know many here agree with it, but I cannot adhere to it.) A denomination that was once very conservative and grounded in covenant theology is now absolutely all over the place. (Can I even call it a denomination anymore? I'm not sure.) I could visit ten different Baptist churches and find 32 different theological systems. I'm looking for continuity, structure, and stability. A defined system that is adhered to. Sadly, I'm not finding this among my Baptist brothers anymore. This is what discourages me. There are confessional standards, but they've been thrown to the wayside.
To be completely candid, I'm finding some solace in Calvinism. Why not the PCA or OPC then? There's just one hangup. I have not yet found an answer for paedobaptism. And it's certainly not for lack of trying/searching for one! I see the argument for it but it hasn't convinced me. Again, I could certainly adhere to the paedo practice, but I need something more than personal opinions or tradition. If this were not an obstacle for me, I'd be right at home in the PCA or OPC. I'm looking for some input here. I need some help. I need a home!
Francis Schaeffer wrote a book on Baptism, one which I disagree with in part, where he explains his views on Baptism in distinction to Catholic practice and Baptist practice. He was RPES, which ended up merging into PCA. Perhaps you can find that book, which should be close if not identical to the PCA position. Also, I think the PCA still has a seminary in St. Louis, MO called Covenant Seminary. You might ask of them for some ideas on how you might get over your obstacle. For me, beyond that, about all I can give you tradition. The early Church did it and can be proved to have done it a bit before 200 AD. It can be presumed from apostolic times based on the baptisms of whole households. There was no battle over infant Baptism as far as I know in the early Church, as would be expected if all of a sudden some started baptizing infants invalidly in some new practice. There was a major battle over the Donatists rejecting Catholic baptism, but that was because the Catholics would forgive ministers who apostasized and the Donatists would not.
 
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Shane2336

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Francis Schaeffer wrote a book on Baptism, one which I disagree with in part, where he explains his views on Baptism in distinction to Catholic practice and Baptist practice. He was RPES, which ended up merging into PCA. Perhaps you can find that book, which should be close if not identical to the PCA position. Also, I think the PCA still has a seminary in St. Louis, MO called Covenant Seminary. You might ask of them for some ideas on how you might get over your obstacle. For me, beyond that, about all I can give you tradition. The early Church did it and can be proved to have done it a bit before 200 AD. It can be presumed from apostolic times based on the baptisms of whole households. There was no battle over infant Baptism as far as I know in the early Church, as would be expected if all of a sudden some started baptizing infants invalidly in some new practice. There was a major battle over the Donatists rejecting Catholic baptism, but that was because the Catholics would forgive ministers who apostasized and the Donatists would not.
Hmm...perhaps I'm looking at this the wrong way. Maybe the "credo" position is the one that needs justifying?
 
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chevyontheriver

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Hmm...perhaps I'm looking at this the wrong way. Maybe the "credo" position is the one that needs justifying?
If it's 'sola credo', yes it does. I think the baptism of one who has already come to an adult faith is a very wonderful thing. Just not, and never, the only thing with respect to baptism.
 
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Shane2336

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If it's 'sola credo', yes it does. I think the baptism of one who has already come to an adult faith is a very wonderful thing. Just not, and never, the only thing with respect to baptism.
This really changes the perspective on things. I never really viewed the "sola credo" position as the one that was turning everything upside down.
 
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chevyontheriver

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This really changes the perspective on things. I never really viewed the "sola credo" position as the one that was turning everything upside down.
The Francis Schaeffer book is simply titled 'Baptism'. 1976. Trimark Publishing, Wilmington DE. I bet it is way out of print, but there is a 2004 reprint available on Amazon. I searched "baptism schaeffer" to find it. Again, I disagree with the book on other matters concerning Baptism, but it does seem to accurately describe PCA understandings, including why they baptize children.

You MIGHT have a preference for immersion. Note that the Orthodox generally immerse even babies.
 
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LordyLordy

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I've been a Baptist (Southern) for my entire life. Well, perhaps until recently. I'm not certain. Hence, this post. I feel like I haven't budged, and my denomination has absolutely derailed. I've noticed (over the years) that the level of disagreement and conflict among Baptists is dizzying. And something that concerns me, quite a bit, is how Dispensationalism is running RAMPANT through Baptist churches. It has effectively become a staple, it seems. (I know many here agree with it, but I cannot adhere to it.) A denomination that was once very conservative and grounded in covenant theology is now absolutely all over the place. (Can I even call it a denomination anymore? I'm not sure.) I could visit ten different Baptist churches and find 32 different theological systems. I'm looking for continuity, structure, and stability. A defined system that is adhered to. Sadly, I'm not finding this among my Baptist brothers anymore. This is what discourages me. There are confessional standards, but they've been thrown to the wayside.
To be completely candid, I'm finding some solace in Calvinism. Why not the PCA or OPC then? There's just one hangup. I have not yet found an answer for paedobaptism. And it's certainly not for lack of trying/searching for one! I see the argument for it but it hasn't convinced me. Again, I could certainly adhere to the paedo practice, but I need something more than personal opinions or tradition. If this were not an obstacle for me, I'd be right at home in the PCA or OPC. I'm looking for some input here. I need some help. I need a home!


What are you searching for that can't be found within you? Did you know that God isn't something you find outside of yourself? Why would God have his prophets write this; "Man was created in the image of God"?
 
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chevyontheriver

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I've been a Baptist (Southern) for my entire life. Well, perhaps until recently. I'm not certain. Hence, this post. I feel like I haven't budged, and my denomination has absolutely derailed. I've noticed (over the years) that the level of disagreement and conflict among Baptists is dizzying. And something that concerns me, quite a bit, is how Dispensationalism is running RAMPANT through Baptist churches. It has effectively become a staple, it seems. (I know many here agree with it, but I cannot adhere to it.) A denomination that was once very conservative and grounded in covenant theology is now absolutely all over the place. (Can I even call it a denomination anymore? I'm not sure.) I could visit ten different Baptist churches and find 32 different theological systems. I'm looking for continuity, structure, and stability. A defined system that is adhered to. Sadly, I'm not finding this among my Baptist brothers anymore. This is what discourages me. There are confessional standards, but they've been thrown to the wayside.
To be completely candid, I'm finding some solace in Calvinism. Why not the PCA or OPC then? There's just one hangup. I have not yet found an answer for paedobaptism. And it's certainly not for lack of trying/searching for one! I see the argument for it but it hasn't convinced me. Again, I could certainly adhere to the paedo practice, but I need something more than personal opinions or tradition. If this were not an obstacle for me, I'd be right at home in the PCA or OPC. I'm looking for some input here. I need some help. I need a home!
Any updates?
 
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Albion

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To be completely candid, I'm finding some solace in Calvinism. Why not the PCA or OPC then? There's just one hangup. I have not yet found an answer for paedobaptism. And it's certainly not for lack of trying/searching for one! I see the argument for it but it hasn't convinced me. Again, I could certainly adhere to the paedo practice, but I need something more than personal opinions or tradition. If this were not an obstacle for me, I'd be right at home in the PCA or OPC. I'm looking for some input here. I need some help. I need a home!
First, it may be worth saying that the evidence from both scripture and history is that it's about 50-50 as to who's right when it comes to the venerable "Paedobaptism vs. Believer's Baptism" controversy. With that in mind, it occurs to me that there are some Evangelical churches/denominations that recognize both views and accept either practice, even while the church has firm and specific doctrines on other matters.

Perhaps one of these would be good for you because it would affirm your POV even while accepting the other one as well. This would be better than belonging to a church that formally rejects your viewpoint, leaving you to believe what you do in private, as it were, in opposition to your church.
 
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I've been a Baptist (Southern) for my entire life. Well, perhaps until recently. I'm not certain. Hence, this post. I feel like I haven't budged, and my denomination has absolutely derailed. I've noticed (over the years) that the level of disagreement and conflict among Baptists is dizzying. And something that concerns me, quite a bit, is how Dispensationalism is running RAMPANT through Baptist churches. It has effectively become a staple, it seems. (I know many here agree with it, but I cannot adhere to it.) A denomination that was once very conservative and grounded in covenant theology is now absolutely all over the place. (Can I even call it a denomination anymore? I'm not sure.) I could visit ten different Baptist churches and find 32 different theological systems. I'm looking for continuity, structure, and stability. A defined system that is adhered to. Sadly, I'm not finding this among my Baptist brothers anymore. This is what discourages me. There are confessional standards, but they've been thrown to the wayside.
To be completely candid, I'm finding some solace in Calvinism. Why not the PCA or OPC then? There's just one hangup. I have not yet found an answer for paedobaptism. And it's certainly not for lack of trying/searching for one! I see the argument for it but it hasn't convinced me. Again, I could certainly adhere to the paedo practice, but I need something more than personal opinions or tradition. If this were not an obstacle for me, I'd be right at home in the PCA or OPC. I'm looking for some input here. I need some help. I need a home!

1) At my PCA church at least, we have a couple of professedly baptist members--they just can't become elders or deacons. Or become divisive on the issue of baptism. And they have been members for many years.

If you are calvinistic in soteriology and prefer covenant theology to dispensationalism, the question it seems you are asking yourself is whether the doctrinal differences are greater between yourself and the SBC/other baptistic church (with which you are familiar) or between yourself and the PCA or OPC (with which I guess you are less familiar). Of course even if you are on balance doctrinally closer to PCA or OPC (the baptism difference being a relatively minor one), there may be other reasons, doctrinal and otherwise, to stay in the SBC or some reformed baptist church (ref. your moniker subtitle). Of course the PCA and OPC have their own problems just like every church group. And I wonder if your differences with the PCA/OPC (sister denominations that use the same hymnbook for worship) are comprised of more than baptism (e.g., form of church gov't.?).

By the way, in general terms, the OPC is a smaller denomination and holds more tightly to the Westminster Standards than the larger and mildly more doctrinally diverse PCA. The OPC may also have some who hold to Federal Vision/Auburn Avenue theology (against which latter I would warn for the essentially Lutheran on justification by faith alone apart from works of the law).

2) For what it may be worth, though I suspect you are well aware of it, immersion is a recognized & acceptable mode of water baptism in the PCA & OPC (as elsewhere among paedobaptists), and in the PCA and OPC, baptismal regeneration is rejected (leaving aside for the moment the Federal Visionists). Furthermore, PCA and OPC would of course water baptize (usually by sprinkling) adults/persons who are of age (esp. thinking of the previously "un-churched") who apply for membership having been converted as adults or persons of age. The major water baptism difference for you I think would be (1) whether the candidate for baptism can be the baby of believing member-parent(s) and (2) the theological significance of water baptism as it relates to (1--in this sentence).

3) Thus probably worth mentioning is that words for baptism in Greek in and outside the LXX/NT are patient of a broader range of mode than immersion alone (e.g., dipping and sprinkling are also used); context will either indicate mode or be ambiguous as to mode. The same word for baptism (here intended as a result of past action) is used in both Heb. 6:2 in Christian context and in Heb. 9:10 of Levitical/priestly rites, which would include sprinkling as a mode (e.g., Numb. 19:17-18 & cf. Ezek. 36:25ff). In Acts 1:5, sprinkling or dousing seem more likely pictures of Holy Spirit (not water) baptism than immersion.

Of further interest to you it seems from what you have written, one could argue that if water baptism were considered to be the new covenant fulfillment of Abrahamic and Mosaic circumcision that the parallel would have received some discussion at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15) where obedience to the law and circumcision were being argued (by a Pharisaic group, v. 5) to be required for Gentile converts "to be saved" (similarly in Galatian context, Gal. 5-6): Gentile Christians don't need to be circumcised, they need to be baptized (& refutation) or the like. Yet if, as I could argue (and as others have), the Jerusalem Council (and Galatian letter) occurred early in the post-Ascension church, the issue of the baptism of children born to adult disciples of Jesus might not have arisen sufficiently in the collective consciousness of the leadership.

This argument from silence (why no "circumcision = baptism" in Acts 15 argument?) in other words may be harder to weigh than one might think. The later "prison epistle" of Paul to the church at Colossae seems to connect a spiritual circumcision with a spiritual baptism (2:11-12) as expressing the current effects of salvation in Christ even if the mode of the baptism here seems better fitted to immersion (in identification with Jesus' burial). And if circumcision is as a "sign ... of the seal of righteousness" that Abraham had by faith (Rom. 4:11), can water baptism not reasonably be viewed from a Christian parent's perspective as functioning similarly to circumcision for the children of Abraham (cf. Gen. 17:10)--not as effecting saving faith, but as a sign of the covenant, for "the promise is for you and your children" (Acts 2:39, cf. Rom. 4)?

4) One could go on in varied directions; I have been hasty in hopes of brevity. The question to you, that is, is not so much whether you are convinced of paedobaptism but whether you can sympathize with its arguments sufficient for some greater degree of ecumenical harmony as among believers. For other resources: Jay E. Adams: The Meaning and Mode of Baptism and James M. Chaney: William the Baptist. But these are hardly the only such resources.

But if you are "looking for continuity, structure, and stability," it might be best to stay at one church. In this life, there will always be discouragements, but by staying at one church, you limit your exposure to differences and over time (we hope) find continuity. On the other hand if you are looking for "a defined system that is adhered to," I agree it seems sad the SBC at least in your experience seems to drift from its own. Surely there are some more or less reformed and confessionally consistent SBC churches, but are there any within your reasonable reach? It seems not.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I've been attending a PCA church for a little while now. Nothing negative to report at this time!
Thanks for the update. I think they are, although not for me, a reasonable group. They were growing fast, and I hope they handled the growing pains OK.
 
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Why are you against dispensationalism?

Ephesians 3:2 If he have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

While I assume Shane2336 is fine with the Bible's use of the word "dispensation," your above question regarding why Shane2336 opposes the "ism" dispensationalism, while understandable (it makes me curious myself), has potential to inject a substantial digressive argument into this thread likely to derail the OP's original intent; there are subforums and other threads on CF for such topics. Just a caveat.
 
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Shane2336

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While I assume Shane2336 is fine with the Bible's use of the word "dispensation," your above question regarding why Shane2336 opposes the "ism" dispensationalism, while understandable (it makes me curious myself), has potential to inject a substantial digressive argument into this thread likely to derail the OP's original intent; there are subforums and other threads on CF for such topics. Just a caveat.
Indeed. There are indeed "dispensations" in Scripture! I was merely referring to the Tim LaHaye "Left Behind" theology that is taken for truth in many SBC churches.
 
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