Where do I belong?

[Tangible]

Hi Shane. I think I remember you from you Lutheran phase. There are Liturgical Reformed Baptist congregations out there, but I'm almost certain that you would have to relocate to attend one. I guess it all comes down to the question of how far are you willing to go to find and attend the kind of congregation you want.

https://baptistnews.com/article/seeing-liturgical-as-missional/#.WHkaelMrLb0

2. Baptists and Classical Christian Worship – Dr. Rodney Kennedy & Dr. Derek Hatch, 10/3/13

Towards Baptist Catholicity: Essays on Tradition and the Baptist Vision (Studies in Baptist History and Thought) (Studies in Baptist History and Thought): Steven R. Harmon, Paul Avis: 9781842273623: Amazon.com: Books
Gathering Together: Baptists at Work in Worship: Rodney Wallace Kennedy, Derek C. Hatch: 9781610977586: Amazon.com: Books

http://anglobaptist.org/

 

[Shane2336]

Hi Shane. I think I remember you from you Lutheran phase. There are Liturgical Reformed Baptist congregations out there, but I'm almost certain that you would have to relocate to attend one. I guess it all comes down to the question of how far are you willing to go to find and attend the kind of congregation you want.

https://baptistnews.com/article/seeing-liturgical-as-missional/#.WHkaelMrLb0

2. Baptists and Classical Christian Worship – Dr. Rodney Kennedy & Dr. Derek Hatch, 10/3/13

Towards Baptist Catholicity: Essays on Tradition and the Baptist Vision (Studies in Baptist History and Thought) (Studies in Baptist History and Thought): Steven R. Harmon, Paul Avis: 9781842273623: Amazon.com: Books
Gathering Together: Baptists at Work in Worship: Rodney Wallace Kennedy, Derek C. Hatch: 9781610977586: Amazon.com: Books

http://anglobaptist.org/

Hello. Yeah...I've been all over the place lately. Turns out, the more I read and dive into things, the more questions I have. I'm still quite attracted to the Lutheran Church. I just decided to identify as what I was raised in until I am able to visit. (I'm overseas right now.)

 

[Shane2336]

I am asking myself the same questions as well of late. I was brought up in a pentecostal church of God, and I strayed from the Lord for years. Upon returning to the Lord a few years ago I find myself in complete and utter confusion about what denomination I should be a part of. I don't necessarily think you have to belong to a church to find salvation but fellowship with other believers is always a step in the right direction and is a good influence for those who need it such as myself. If I can do anything for God and for myself, with His direction, I will. Just not sure what church I should belong to, and would love any input or advice figuring it out.

Iron sharpens iron, brother. We need a home. It's not right for us to wander outside of a fellowship of believers.That was never part of the plan!

 

[TurtleAnne]

At this point in my life I don't really care about a church's denomination, unless they are WAY out there and far away from the scriptures completely. Otherwise I care more about the people that compose a congregation and whether or not they are actively incorporating Jesus' teachings into the church and their lives. I'm currently attending a Lutheran church, but I don't identify as a "Lutheran" I just identify as a disciple of Christ, period, and in this way I relate to a lot of people from many different denominations, I think. I don't even agree with every single thing that my church teaches. But I like that they are actually a "boots on the ground" sort of church, who spend more time doing charity, local outreach and spreading the Gospel, than they do just sitting in the pews and patting themselves on the back for being Christians. In my personal perception, obsession with denomination comes from an obsession with the law, which Jesus warned about all the time in His teachings, especially when confronting the pharisees.

And don't anybody get me wrong here, I used to be very concerned about choosing the "right" denomination and so on, but that has just fallen away from me by this point. It's not what matters to me, anymore. Seems like irrelevant fluff (again unless they are WAY off course). I'm more about like.. Is Jesus their Lord and Savior? Do they actually care about Jesus' teachings? Are they down to incorporate those teachings and get out there to serve others? If so, then they are my people, whatever they call themselves denomination-wise or non-denomination-wise. So anyway I mean I know what it's like to worry a lot about it.

But I really don't think that when Jesus returns, that He will be like, "Where all My <denomination> people at?" I was raised Baptist, and many of the people in the church I grew up in were corrupt like the pharisees and didn't really care about Jesus' teachings. Yet while I was homeless for a little while, it was a group of Baptists who were out on the streets trying to help people while ministering at the same time (and even in some rather dangerous parts of town). So I don't see "Baptists" anymore when thinking about those things, I see people who try to follow Jesus' teachings, and people who don't care about Jesus' teachings. I don't really care what label someone or a church is using anymore. I care about their nature in general.

 

[Dale]

I'm not sure where this thread belongs, but this seemed like a good place to start.

I've been a Baptist for my entire life. Well, perhaps until recently. I'm not certain. Hence, this post. I feel like I haven't budged, and my denomination has absolutely derailed. I've noticed (over the years) that the level of disagreement and conflict among Baptists is dizzying. And something that concerns me, quite a bit, is how Dispensationalism is running RAMPANT through Baptist churches. It has effectively become a staple, it seems. (I know many here agree with it, but I cannot adhere to it.) A denomination that was once very conservative and grounded in covenant theology is now absolutely all over the place. (Can I even call it a denomination anymore? I'm not sure.) I could visit ten different Baptist churches and find 32 different theological systems. I'm looking for continuity, structure, and stability. A defined system that is adhered to. Sadly, I'm not finding this among my Baptist brothers anymore. This is what discourages me. There are confessional standards, but they've been thrown to the wayside.
To be completely candid, I'm finding some solace in Calvinism. Why not the PCA or OPC then? There's just one hangup. I have not yet found an answer for paedobaptism. And it's certainly not for lack of trying/searching for one! I see the argument for it but it hasn't convinced me. If this were not an obstacle for me, I'd be right at home in the PCA or OPC. I'm looking for some input here. I need some help. I need a home! Any input will be greatly appreciated.

Shane,

I know how you feel. I was raised as a Southern Baptist. I had never heard of the so-called Rapture or Dispensationalism until I was in college. That was shortly after Hal Lindsey's book The Late Great Planet Earth came out. That rather lousy book introduced Dispensationalism to huge numbers of people who hadn't heard of it. I have read several books by Dispensationalists and I can't even define it. I have asked people on CF to define Dispensationalism and I've been told, “They believe in dispensations.”


Personally, I left the Baptist church when I wound up with a Bible study teacher who believed in Dispensationalism. Even at that time I had not heard Dispensationalist ideas from the pulpit. Initially I started going to a Methodist church. I have not found any complete solution. I attend a non-denominational church, which is pretty conservative.


One thing you did not say is whether you have heard Baptist ministers preaching Rapture and other Dispensationalist ideas from the pulpit.


I have had Dispensationalists attack or question my Christianity when I make it clear that I don't believe in a Rapture (separate from the Second Coming).

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Shane
I also was raised a Baptist as a young person then I started seeing that on Sunday some Christians were hung over, others slept during the sermon, others gossiped during the sermon in whispers. I left the the church when I turned 18 (mom was not happy).
The Baptist used to take the Historical view of prophecy, not any more. I wonder what happened. Could it be that false teaching entered the Church?
2 Timothy 4:3 [Full Chapter]
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
Revelation 18:4
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

I suggest that you look in the Word of God to see which Church his people will be in at the end of time. These scriptures are the starting point.

Rev 22
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 19:10
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Find a Church that has these two characteristics that the Word of God says is the remnant. Keep the Commandments of GOD and have the Spirit of Prophecy.

God be with you in your search.

 

[Shane2336]

Shane,

I know how you feel. I was raised as a Southern Baptist. I had never heard of the so-called Rapture or Dispensationalism until I was in college. That was shortly after Hal Lindsey's book The Late Great Planet Earth came out. That rather lousy book introduced Dispensationalism to huge numbers of people who hadn't heard of it. I have read several books by Dispensationalists and I can't even define it. I have asked people on CF to define Dispensationalism and I've been told, “They believe in dispensations.”


Personally, I left the Baptist church when I wound up with a Bible study teacher who believed in Dispensationalism. Even at that time I had not heard Dispensationalist ideas from the pulpit. Initially I started going to a Methodist church. I have not found any complete solution. I attend a non-denominational church, which is pretty conservative.


One thing you did not say is whether you have heard Baptist ministers preaching Rapture and other Dispensationalist ideas from the pulpit.


I have had Dispensationalists attack or question my Christianity when I make it clear that I don't believe in a Rapture (separate from the Second Coming).

Hi Dale,

I have indeed heard this doctrine preached from the pulpit. The church I grew up in, actually. It saddens me deeply that both of my parents still attend the church and both adhere to this theology and see it as 100% truth. Actually...it's super depressing. Any attempt to debunk, or at least explain to them the errors of Dispensationalism, is met with accusations about my "liberal" interpretation of Scripture.

 

[Shane2336]

Could it be that false teaching entered the Church?

I think that is EXACTLY what has happened.

 

[Dale]

Wikipedia lists about 60 different Baptist denominations just in the US. So I am not surprised that if you were raised Fundamental Baptist and visited a Southern Baptist congregation that it was vastly different from what you expected. Even more so if you visit an American Baptist or General Baptist or even a Free Will Baptist.

To say that there are sixty denominations of Baptists is extremely misleading.
About half of the Baptists in the US are Southern Baptist. The vast majority of Baptists in the US are Southern Baptist, American Baptist, Independent Baptist, or National Baptist. The National Baptists are the black Baptists, or historically black congregations. For all Baptists, every congregaton is independent. They don't disagree about church organization and their differences are mainly matters of emphasis.

The Free Will Baptists are not a split off of any other Baptist denomination. They are an independent development.

 

[Dale]

My suggestion is that you start at the beginning.

Read the writings of the first Christians taught by the apostles.

Read such as ignatius of Antioch, Justin martyr, irenaus of Lyon.
See what was handed down to them. Also documents like the didache.
Discover the role of clergy generally, bishops in particular, sacraments , eucharist, real presence and so on.

See which denominations you now see fit that early church.
Truth does not change, and Jesus said HIS church would be one.

You are probably in for a BIG suprise.

I have read Justin Martyr and others. The more I learn about the Roman Catholic Church the less I like it. For the claims of the RCC to be true, the doctrine, the practice and the structure would have to be unchanged from the beginning. In fact, the doctrine, the practice and the structure have all changed.

 

[Mountainmike]

The early church was small, it is now vast. Just as an acorn is small and an oak tree is vast, and inevitably looks different , but they are still the same species.

Now read again for example - ignatius letter to smyrneans. See a church with succession and bishops empowered to a valid Eucharist of the real presence. A liturgical sacramental church. It is clear from scripture that the "church" the " household of god" which from OT we know is the physical church is the " pillar of truth"

Nothing has changed except the size of the oak tree.

Alternatively if you are new to RCC ... read such as " surprised by truth " Madrid, or the testimony of thousands of pastors and theologians of all denominations returning to Rome, in coming home network / journey to home - and why history forced them inexorably there.

Most discover that what they think of RCC is a false caricature.

I have read Justin Martyr and others. The more I learn about the Roman Catholic Church the less I like it. For the claims of the RCC to be true, the doctrine, the practice and the structure would have to be unchanged from the beginning. In fact, the doctrine, the practice and the structure have all changed.

 

[Dale]

Shane,

I'm not sure if I can help you reason with Dispensationalists, but I'll make a couple of suggestions.

Rapturists teach that Christ will Rapture the church before persecution starts. What are we supposed to say to people who live in parts of the world where persecution is already happening? The claim must sound ridiculous.

There is no mention of Rapture in the Apostles Creed or the Nicene Creed. There is no mention of it in the Westminster Confession (Reformed) or in the Augsberg Confession (Lutheran). The Southern Baptist Convention's Statement of Faith contains no mention of a Rapture. Instead, it says that God will bring the world to an end in an appropriate way.

 

[Shane2336]

Shane,

I'm not sure if I can help you reason with Dispensationalists, but I'll make a couple of suggestions.

Rapturists teach that Christ will Rapture the church before persecution starts. What are we supposed to say to people who live in parts of the world where persecution is already happening? The claim must sound ridiculous.

There is no mention of Rapture in the Apostles Creed or the Nicene Creed. There is no mention of it in the Westminster Confession (Reformed) or in the Augsberg Confession (Lutheran). The Southern Baptist Convention's Statement of Faith contains no mention of a Rapture. Instead, it says that God will bring the world to an end in an appropriate way.

Dale,

This is exactly the source of my frustration! Between the 1689, the SBC SoF, or any confessional "Baptist" documents for that matter, there is NOTHING about this. That's precisely what I was getting at when I said the Baptist faith has derailed. I completely agree with the way the SoF handles eschatology. God will bring about the end of days in His way, in His time. Perfect! Leave it there! But no, they just couldn't leave it there.

This is the sort of thing we are bound to encounter with the SBC though. It calls itself a denomination, but it really isn't. I'm not speaking disrespectfully here, to set the record straight. You see, the LCMS, PCA, OPC, etc., require that a standard be upheld within that group. This is not the case for the SBC. Did you know that churches in the SBC aren't actually required to adhere to anything? It's strongly suggested the individual church adheres to the Faith and Message and the SoF, and they can be asked to leave (theoretically) if they don't; but these cases are few and far between. This is the double edged sword of congregational autonomy. It allows churches to remain conservative if their denom moves towards liberalism, and it also allows the church to pretty much teach whatever they want with no checks and balances outside of their own congregation.

 

[Tangible]

The early church was small, it is now vast. Just as an acorn is small and an oak tree is vast, and inevitably looks different , but they are still the same species.

Now read again for example - ignatius letter to smyrneans. See a church with succession and bishops empowered to a valid Eucharist of the real presence. A liturgical sacramental church. It is clear from scripture that the "church" the " household of god" which from OT we know is the physical church is the " pillar of truth"

Nothing has changed except the size of the oak tree.

Alternatively if you are new to RCC ... read such as " surprised by truth " Madrid, or the testimony of thousands of pastors and theologians of all denominations returning to Rome, in coming home network / journey to home - and why history forced them inexorably there.

Most discover that what they think of RCC is a false caricature.

The problem with the oak tree analogy is that it does not allow for any falling away from the one true faith. Arians and Gnostics could just as well be said to be a part of the same tree since they came from the same acorn.

The scriptural analogy of an olive tree with some branches growing naturally, others being grafted in, and still others being cut off is much better.

When a branch becomes diseased by embracing false doctrines or requiring believers to hold specific beliefs which are really non-scriptural pious opinions, the keeper will administer treatments for the purpose of healing the branch. If the branch becomes too diseased and threatens to spread to the rest of the tree, the keeper may eventually prune it back to the good wood, even if it means losing a significant portion of the tree.

 

[Tangible]

I believe the OP is using the term "Baptism" to refer to the Baptist faith, if I am not mistaken. Catholicism, Lutheranism, Baptism.

 

[Mountainmike]

Indeed, the heresies you name were outed as such at the time. Those and many others, take the first Canon of Marcion. Indeed such as irenaus devoted many writings to heresies.

But structure has had to change to accommodate sheer size. And doctrine has also evolved. Take the trinity and creed, no less true from the first, but it took centuries to get succinct Expression.

The problem with the oak tree analogy is that it does not allow for any falling away from the one true faith. Arians and Gnostics could just as well be said to be a part of the same tree since they came from the same acorn.

The scriptural analogy of an olive tree with some branches growing naturally, others being grafted in, and still others being cut off is much better.

When a branch becomes diseased by embracing false doctrines or requiring believers to hold specific beliefs which are really non-scriptural pious opinions, the keeper will administer treatments for the purpose of healing the branch. If the branch becomes too diseased and threatens to spread to the rest of the tree, the keeper may eventually prune it back to the good wood, even if it means losing a significant portion of the tree.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Hallo!

Sorry for the inconvenient question, but is Baptism Christianity? I never understood that. And if yes, what is the difference?

Thank you, kind Sir.

Baptism is a public demonstration that a person has decided to believe that Jesus is the Son of God and rose from the dead to enable him or her to become a child of God. The basic decision to accept Christ as Saviour is a personal one between the individual and God; and baptism is the act of showing the world that he or she has made that decision. Baptism does not save a person or makes a person a better Christian, but it identifies that person as a Christian believer to the world. It is good to do it, because then you are not ashamed of Christ before others. Jesus said that if a person who professes Christianity is ashamed of Him before others, He will be ashamed of them in the Judgment. So baptism is good to ensure that we stand up for Jesus before the world.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I'm not sure where this thread belongs, but this seemed like a good place to start.

I've been a Baptist for my entire life. Well, perhaps until recently. I'm not certain. Hence, this post. I feel like I haven't budged, and my denomination has absolutely derailed. I've noticed (over the years) that the level of disagreement and conflict among Baptists is dizzying. And something that concerns me, quite a bit, is how Dispensationalism is running RAMPANT through Baptist churches. It has effectively become a staple, it seems. (I know many here agree with it, but I cannot adhere to it.) A denomination that was once very conservative and grounded in covenant theology is now absolutely all over the place. (Can I even call it a denomination anymore? I'm not sure.) I could visit ten different Baptist churches and find 32 different theological systems. I'm looking for continuity, structure, and stability. A defined system that is adhered to. Sadly, I'm not finding this among my Baptist brothers anymore. This is what discourages me. There are confessional standards, but they've been thrown to the wayside.
To be completely candid, I'm finding some solace in Calvinism. Why not the PCA or OPC then? There's just one hangup. I have not yet found an answer for paedobaptism. And it's certainly not for lack of trying/searching for one! I see the argument for it but it hasn't convinced me. If this were not an obstacle for me, I'd be right at home in the PCA or OPC. I'm looking for some input here. I need some help. I need a home! Any input will be greatly appreciated.

Well if you are finding solace in calvinism why not stick with the Baptist church?
Spurgeon greatly admired Calvin.
I doubt you will find any denomination that perfectly fits your criterea. I never have!

 

[Wolf_Says]

I have read Justin Martyr and others. The more I learn about the Roman Catholic Church the less I like it. For the claims of the RCC to be true, the doctrine, the practice and the structure would have to be unchanged from the beginning. In fact, the doctrine, the practice and the structure have all changed.

Actually could you explain to me exactly WHAT of the core fundamental beliefs of the Catholic Church have changed?

Thank you.

 

[Albion]

Is the question confined to "core" and "fundamental" beliefs only? AND who is to define what those terms refer to in this context?