where do babys go when they die

[Tenorvoice]

I had forgotten that passage Adoniram....thank you for finding it. I could not remember where I had read that before.

 

[Asar'el]

This seems to be a quite touchy subject. I'm not positive of the answer, however, I have found scripture that may indicate that a precedent has been set.

The passage is found in Deut. 1, verses 34-40.

Deuteronomy 1 (NIV)
34 When the LORD heard what you said, he was angry and solemnly swore: 35 "Not a man of this evil generation shall see the good land I swore to give your forefathers, 36 except Caleb son of Jephunneh. He will see it, and I will give him and his descendants the land he set his feet on, because he followed the LORD wholeheartedly."
37 Because of you the LORD became angry with me also and said, "You shall not enter it, either. 38 But your assistant, Joshua son of Nun, will enter it. Encourage him, because he will lead Israel to inherit it. 39 And the little ones that you said would be taken captive, your children who do not yet know good from bad-they will enter the land. I will give it to them and they will take possession of it. 40 But as for you, turn around and set out toward the desert along the route to the Red Sea."

In this passage, Moses is reminding the people of Israel of their rebellion against God. Remember the twelve men that Moses sent into the promised land to scope it out? Ten came back with a bad report while two, Joshua and Caleb, came back saying, and this was in line with God's will, that it was ripe for the taking. The people chose to disobey God's command to go in and take the land, so God punished them by forcing them to wander the desert for forty more years.

No adults, except Joshua and Caleb because they "followed the Lord wholeheartedly," would be allowed to enter the promised land. However, God said that the innocent children, those "who do not yet know good from bad" would be allowed to enter the promised land. Note that these are the children of rebellious parents, those who were children when their parents chose not to obey God by going in to possess the promised land when God told them to.

I don't agree with the conclusions you draw from the passage you have brought up, and that in several parts:

The key difference is, in the KJV verse 39 reads thus:

Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

You'll see from this it is 'your little ones' AND 'your children'; the way you have it rendered you have the little ones being the children.

Second, you call them innocent. God did not. Having no knowledge between good and evil does not make them innocent.

It is my belief that, even today in the age of grace, that this is how God will deal with the innocent children. God does not change. If he allowed the innocent children to inherit the promise back then, I believe he will do the same today.

The problem I have with this view is that it makes the blood of Christ unnecessary for salvation in these cases - and that, I believe, is contrary to Scripture. There are no innocents, For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

Interestingly enough (and tellingly enough, perhaps), I have not found one instance of scripture calling children innocent. As far as I can tell, innocent is used personally in the scripture only with reference to our Lord Jesus, and to His blood. Everywhere else it is used in the context of a concept, not of a specific instance...

There is also a more dangerous implication of the notion of innocency of children: by the argument, someone that murders babies could be seen as doing them a favour, by sending them straight to heaven, as it were, and thereby not giving them a chance to mess it up through life.

 

[Asaph]

So I walked into the room and saw this can sitting on my computer. I picked it up and the label said "WORMS". I thought to myself, "Nah, get outta here. Who would put worms in a can". So I went into the kitchen and got a can opener........

I've been following you guys for some time now and I agree that the thought of babies going to hell is just to horrible to bear, but I can guarantee that if they do it will be a perfect and just outcome. Why? Because our Lord is Perfect and Just. So let me show you what is in the can.......lol

Predestination does not have to violate one's free will to be true. Our God is a very big God who knows everything that was, is, or will be and He knows each individual perfectly before they were even born. It could be (no, I guess I'm saying it is) that God knows even what a person would have chosen if they were given the chance, and He can act perfectly and justly based on the choices a person would have made. This is not a violation of free will, it's just that God, whom we sometimes do not have a complete understanding of, knows perfectly all things.

I don't mean to hit and run here, but I won't be able to check back until after work. I really just wanted to offer this up for thought. Not really trying to open a can of worms. (so don't beat me too bad!.... )

Grace and Peace,
Asaph

 

[Adoniram]

I don't agree with the conclusions you draw from the passage you have brought up, and that in several parts:

The key difference is, in the KJV verse 39 reads thus:

Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

You'll see from this it is 'your little ones' AND 'your children'; the way you have it rendered you have the little ones being the children.

I don't see how you can read the passage to be refering to anyone other than the children, whether using the KJV or the NIV. It cannot refer to the "children of Israel" as a whole because the adults were not going to be allowed to enter the promised land.

Second, you call them innocent. God did not. Having no knowledge between good and evil does not make them innocent.

Would you not agree that before Adam and Eve yielded to the temptation to eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that they were innocent? It follows from that that no knowledge of good and evil equates with innocence.

Don't have time to go into this more at this time but will try to later.

 

[Asar'el]

I don't see how you can read the passage to be refering to anyone other than the children, whether using the KJV or the NIV. It cannot refer to the "children of Israel" as a whole because the adults were not going to be allowed to enter the promised land.

You misunderstand; it speaks of both 'little ones' AND children that were too young to know. Little ones were not too young to know good and evil; they were, in fact, young ones, not yet adults, as you say -- but old enough to know good and evil. YET they were to be spared - which is contrary to the argument given.

Would you not agree that before Adam and Eve yielded to the temptation to eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that they were innocent? It follows from that that no knowledge of good and evil equates with innocence.

Don't have time to go into this more at this time but will try to later.

Actually, your logic is faulty; it does not follow that no knowledge equates to innocence - not by a long shot... They were not innocent because they did not know good and evil, but rather, in spite of that fact. The reasonable conclusion is that they were innocent because God kept them that way. As the elect angels are now preserved from evil, so were Adam and Eve.

 

[JVD]

I'll jump in

The problem I have with this view is that it makes the blood of Christ unnecessary for salvation in these cases - and that, I believe, is contrary to Scripture. There are no innocents, For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

why can't they be saved by the same saving blood of Christ that saves an adult? Does man have to DO something before the blood of Christ has any effect? Or did God only die for some people and not for others. If that is true than none of us have a choice...God already made it for us...and for the little ones.

Predestination does not have to violate one's free will to be true. Our God is a very big God who knows everything that was, is, or will be and He knows each individual perfectly before they were even born. It could be (no, I guess I'm saying it is) that God knows even what a person would have chosen if they were given the chance,

So what...exactly...would cause a person or a potential person (a zygot for instance) to choose or reject salvation? Is it just the luck of the DNA draw? If you get a certain gene you would choose salvation? Does God have no sovereignty at all? Is it all up to us and totally to our choice? Isn't it possible that God only rejects those who have knowingly rejected the free gift of salvation? Than all those who have not been given a choice would go to heaven?

Are those enough questions for one post?

 

[Svt4Him]

I'll jump in



why can't they be saved by the same saving blood of Christ that saves an adult? Does man have to DO something before the blood of Christ has any effect? Or did God only die for some people and not for others. If that is true than none of us have a choice...God already made it for us...and for the little ones.

Yes, repent and believe. A child does not, but an adult does.

So what...exactly...would cause a person or a potential person (a zygot for instance) to choose or reject salvation? Is it just the luck of the DNA draw? If you get a certain gene you would choose salvation? Does God have no sovereignty at all? Is it all up to us and totally to our choice? Isn't it possible that God only rejects those who have knowingly rejected the free gift of salvation? Than all those who have not been given a choice would go to heaven?

Are those enough questions for one post?

Sin. John 3: 19And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. qvb://0/anchor/2020For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. qvb://0/anchor/2121But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

 

[Asaph]

I'll jump in

So what...exactly...would cause a person or a potential person (a zygot for instance) to choose or reject salvation? Is it just the luck of the DNA draw? If you get a certain gene you would choose salvation? Does God have no sovereignty at all? Is it all up to us and totally to our choice? Isn't it possible that God only rejects those who have knowingly rejected the free gift of salvation? Than all those who have not been given a choice would go to heaven?

Are those enough questions for one post?

Nope, not enough questions as far as I'm concerned..........

What if it's both? I mean, both a predestination based on God's foreknowledge and God's sovreign will?

Rom 9:17-24
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
NKJV

What if we humans just can't understand how it could be both because we are the clay and not the potter? Should we therefore reply against the potter that a mistake has been made? Or should we fall at the potters feet and cry thank you, thank you Lord?

Is there some sort of special skill involved in being able to ask all these questions?

(There is a place I love in Mark where the Lord does the same thing and when I first read it as a new Christian I put a note in the margin that said "Man! Look at all the questions!" I felt sorry for the disciples... Mark 8:16-21)

Grace, Mercy, and overflowing Joy today,
Asaph

 

[Dust and Ashes]

So I walked into the room and saw this can sitting on my computer. I picked it up and the label said "WORMS". I thought to myself, "Nah, get outta here. Who would put worms in a can". So I went into the kitchen and got a can opener........

I've been following you guys for some time now and I agree that the thought of babies going to hell is just to horrible to bear, but I can guarantee that if they do it will be a perfect and just outcome. Why? Because our Lord is Perfect and Just. So let me show you what is in the can.......lol

Predestination does not have to violate one's free will to be true. Our God is a very big God who knows everything that was, is, or will be and He knows each individual perfectly before they were even born. It could be (no, I guess I'm saying it is) that God knows even what a person would have chosen if they were given the chance, and He can act perfectly and justly based on the choices a person would have made. This is not a violation of free will, it's just that God, whom we sometimes do not have a complete understanding of, knows perfectly all things.

I don't mean to hit and run here, but I won't be able to check back until after work. I really just wanted to offer this up for thought. Not really trying to open a can of worms. (so don't beat me too bad!.... )

Grace and Peace,
Asaph

Gimme some of them worms! That is a great point and one that I have personally always held regarding predestination/freewill. I never understood what the argument was about with a God as BIG as ours.

It is amazing to think sometimes how God knows every possible outcome to every possible decision that every possible creature in history has ever had the opportunity to make.

 

[Dust and Ashes]

Nope, not enough questions as far as I'm concerned..........

What if it's both? I mean, both a predestination based on God's foreknowledge and God's sovreign will?

Rom 9:17-24
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
NKJV

What if we humans just can't understand how it could be both because we are the clay and not the potter? Should we therefore reply against the potter that a mistake has been made? Or should we fall at the potters feet and cry thank you, thank you Lord?

Is there some sort of special skill involved in being able to ask all these questions?

(There is a place I love in Mark where the Lord does the same thing and when I first read it as a new Christian I put a note in the margin that said "Man! Look at all the questions!" I felt sorry for the disciples... Mark 8:16-21)

Grace, Mercy, and overflowing Joy today,
Asaph

Amen. I think man's arrogance is one of the primary reasons so many people have trouble accepting God's existence and hence, His sovereignty. We are brainwashed into thinking we are something of importance in our own right, when we exist solely because it pleased God to create us. It really helps me put things in perspective when I meditate on that. God bless

 

[JVD]

What if we humans just can't understand how it could be both because we are the clay and not the potter? Should we therefore reply against the potter that a mistake has been made? Or should we fall at the potters feet and cry thank you, thank you Lord?

This is basically my belief as well...believe it or not! I believe in both freewill and predestination at the same time. I also believe that it cannot be explained adequetely so that it does not seem like a paradox to us humans. We need to accept God's sovereignty, and also our responsibility (free will) at the same time. Any attempt at explanation that says Gods foreknowledge is equivalent to his predestination weakens his soveriegnty. So...at this point we need to humble ourselves and accept the fact that he is higher than we are.

 

[Asaph]

Gimme some of them worms! That is a great point and one that I have personally always held regarding predestination/freewill. I never understood what the argument was about with a God as BIG as ours.

It is amazing to think sometimes how God knows every possible outcome to every possible decision that every possible creature in history has ever had the opportunity to make.

In the OT it says that God's thoughts toward each of us is more numerous than the sands on the seashore. I know the first time I read that it just floored me. It stunned me to think that God had ever thought about me even once, let alone a number unfathomable like that. I just can't wrap my puny brain around it!... It still just amazes me to think about it.

How do you respond to so great a love? I "kiss toward" Him every chance I get.

Grace and Peace today,
Asaph

 

[Asaph]

This is basically my belief as well...believe it or not! I believe in both freewill and predestination at the same time. I also believe that it cannot be explained adequetely so that it does not seem like a paradox to us humans. We need to accept God's sovereignty, and also our responsibility (free will) at the same time. Any attempt at explanation that says Gods foreknowledge is equivalent to his predestination weakens his soveriegnty. So...at this point we need to humble ourselves and accept the fact that he is higher than we are.

I agree JVD. I had this great story all typed up about the "paraducks" and it got sent off into cyberspace when I tried to submit the post.

I figure God must not have thought it was as funny as I did......

Grace and Peace to you today,
Asaph

 

[Asar'el]

I'll jump in



why can't they be saved by the same saving blood of Christ that saves an adult? Does man have to DO something before the blood of Christ has any effect? Or did God only die for some people and not for others. If that is true than none of us have a choice...God already made it for us...and for the little ones.

The argument offered was that all children/babies have no sin, and therefore all go to heaven. If that is the case, they have no need of salvation; and that is what I disagree with - I agree with the Scripture declaring that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

So what...exactly...would cause a person or a potential person (a zygot for instance) to choose or reject salvation? Is it just the luck of the DNA draw? If you get a certain gene you would choose salvation? Does God have no sovereignty at all? Is it all up to us and totally to our choice? Isn't it possible that God only rejects those who have knowingly rejected the free gift of salvation? Than all those who have not been given a choice would go to heaven?

Are those enough questions for one post?

God does not choose the elect based on choices made or choices foreseen (the idea that God would know what we would choose if offered...) - but simply by His sovereign will and power, for His pleasure and glory.

Free will was corrupted in Adam; God's regeneration must restore it before it can be again free - and it is not fully restored until it is made perfect in glory.

Speculation about what might be or could be is, imho, moot, when the Scripture seems so clear on the subject: children of elect are called holy; otherwise, unclean. While not many agree with this teaching (I believe this due to a desire to see children as innocent, and forgetfulness about original sin...) I have yet to see an explanation how this text might be understood in any other way.

 

[Asaph]

The argument offered was that all children/babies have no sin, and therefore all go to heaven. If that is the case, they have no need of salvation; and that is what I disagree with - I agree with the Scripture declaring that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.


God does not choose the elect based on choices made or choices foreseen (the idea that God would know what we would choose if offered...) - but simply by His sovereign will and power, for His pleasure and glory.

Free will was corrupted in Adam; God's regeneration must restore it before it can be again free - and it is not fully restored until it is made perfect in glory.

Speculation about what might be or could be is, imho, moot, when the Scripture seems so clear on the subject: children of elect are called holy; otherwise, unclean. While not many agree with this teaching (I believe this due to a desire to see children as innocent, and forgetfulness about original sin...) I have yet to see an explanation how this text might be understood in any other way.

No, IMHO scripture is not so clear as you say, which is what we have been talking about in the last few posts. And if you are saying that it is nothing but the sovreign will of God who will be saved and who won't then you are as wrong as the the person who believes they searched out God and by their own efforts and wisdom found out the gift of salvation and accepted it of their own free will.

And this could not be more fundamental, God will force no one to love Him. Why? Because love is an act of ones free will, and without it it is not love, and if it is not love, it is not of God.

Right back to the start. It must be both God's own sovreign will with no action or merit on the recievers part, and an act of acceptance by free choice on the recievers part. I don't know how, and my mind cannot concieve it, but I accept it.

Salvation is a gift, but that gift must be accepted for the person to have it.

(I read back through this Asar'el and it sounds a bit abrupt, I don't mean it to be, I was just trying to keep it short. There is no offense intended.)

Your brother in Christ,
Asaph

 

[Asar'el]

No, IMHO scripture is not so clear as you say, which is what we have been talking about in the last few posts. And if you are saying that it is nothing but the sovreign will of God who will be saved and who won't then you are as wrong as the the person who believes they searched out God and by their own efforts and wisdom found out the gift of salvation and accepted it of their own free will.

I am saying indeed that it is nothing but the sovreign will of God that determines who will be saved - but at the same time, not quite the way you imagine it ... read on!

And this could not be more fundamental, God will force no one to love Him. Why? Because love is an act of ones free will, and without it it is not love, and if it is not love, it is not of God.

Right back to the start. It must be both God's own sovreign will with no action or merit on the recievers part, and an act of acceptance by free choice on the recievers part. I don't know how, and my mind cannot concieve it, but I accept it.

Up to here you almost have it, brother. I will tell you how, if you would hear it:

God indeed does not force love unto us nor acceptance; but without God's doing we would not be able to accept it. Since Adam we have will free only to evil - before we can accept the gift of faith (which is only natural!! who would not accept a good thing??) God must first enable us to.

Salvation is a gift, but that gift must be accepted for the person to have it.

Yes and no, as I indicate. We are not able to accept that gift without God's Holy Spirit first working in us regeneration - giving us a new heart. No unbeliever can accept Christ without the enablement of the Holy Ghost; and noone that the Holy Ghost regenerats can reject Christ.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(I read back through this Asar'el and it sounds a bit abrupt, I don't mean it to be, I was just trying to keep it short. There is no offense intended.)

Your brother in Christ,
Asaph

I didn't even think it abrupt - but I appreciate you telling me, lol. No offense taken at all - and I hope none given

 

[Tenorvoice]

why keep bickering over it and just accept the fact that we will never now for shure untill we get to heaven (and you will only get there if you are saved). For when we get there we will know everything. THere is a reason that we do not use but I think it is a 10th of our brain. It is because we are not wired to understand these types of things. All we can do is just trust and know that God knows what He is doing and that He is never wrong. And that God's timing is always right.

 

[Asaph]

I am saying indeed that it is nothing but the sovreign will of God that determines who will be saved - but at the same time, not quite the way you imagine it ... read on!


Up to here you almost have it, brother. I will tell you how, if you would hear it:

God indeed does not force love unto us nor acceptance; but without God's doing we would not be able to accept it. Since Adam we have will free only to evil - before we can accept the gift of faith (which is only natural!! who would not accept a good thing??) God must first enable us to.


Yes and no, as I indicate. We are not able to accept that gift without God's Holy Spirit first working in us regeneration - giving us a new heart. No unbeliever can accept Christ without the enablement of the Holy Ghost; and noone that the Holy Ghost regenerats can reject Christ.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


I didn't even think it abrupt - but I appreciate you telling me, lol. No offense taken at all - and I hope none given

Though we may slightly disagree on a level beyond us both. I absolutely agree with all you have said here. After all, in my own quest, it was God himself who put it in me to desire to know the Truth. And He came along and said "I am Truth". I'm the luckiest guy on the planet. And that knowledge makes me leap for joy saying "Yeah Baby!...

Grace, Mercy, and Peace,
Asaph

 

[Asar'el]

why keep bickering over it and just accept the fact that we will never now for shure untill we get to heaven (and you will only get there if you are saved). For when we get there we will know everything. THere is a reason that we do not use but I think it is a 10th of our brain. It is because we are not wired to understand these types of things. All we can do is just trust and know that God knows what He is doing and that He is never wrong. And that God's timing is always right.

Not sure who you are addressing this to ... but I don't see bickering here. Is there something wrong with trying to understand more of our God from His word?

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

If you think perhaps there is no point to this ... do not read further. But telling someone else they should think there is no point to it is ... presumptuous?

 

[Asar'el]

Though we may slightly disagree on a level beyond us both. I absolutely agree with all you have said here. After all, in my own quest, it was God himself who put it in me to desire to know the Truth. And He came along and said "I am Truth". I'm the luckiest guy on the planet. And that knowledge makes me leap for joy saying "Yeah Baby!...

Grace, Mercy, and Peace,
Asaph

Amen! And I'm the luckiest guy on the planet too!