Where did the Church go?

I'm not familiar with a bible passage that indicates a precedent that we are to pray to any but God.

HT, what makes you think that judging the practice of praying to the dead to be unscriptural means that the church ceased to exist?

If you are going to insist on that theory being part of the question about why Christians disagree over this matter, you have already settled on the answer you will accept.

HTacianas said:

If prayers to saints is a heresy, and all of the original Churches pray to saints, what became of Christianity for all those years?

Click to expand...

First, though I am not Roman Catholic, I will offer what someone has claimed > that ones do not pray to the saints for things we would ask of God, but they ask saints for intercession. This is the official teaching, ones now say.

But, to my knowledge, possibly there have been ones claiming to be Catholic, who have in fact prayed to saints in order to get salvific grace from saints . . . versus asking saints to intercede grace to them.

But > our Apostle Paul does say to pray "for all the saints", in Ephesians 6:18. Also, 1 Peter 4:9-10 to me means that every child of God is able to minister God's own grace to one another. So, we do not need to die and become special intercessors in order to minister God's own grace to one another.

So, yes, possibly certain religious people publicly made it seem as though we need to seek people who have died, in order to get God's grace. But real members of the church could have been in private praying and obeying God; these might not have been made known by publicly known and shown religious leaders. The ones truly gentle and humble in Jesus, I consider, have always simply and quietly been obeying God and not trying to get public reputation and control >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

spiritfilledjm said:

I'm not familiar with a bible passage that indicates a precedent that we are to pray to any but God.

Click to expand...

Agree - Pray to who? Our Father in Heaven

Luke 11

Jesus’ Teaching on Prayer

1 One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.”

2 He said to them, “When you pray, say:

“‘Father,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come.
3 Give us each day our daily bread.
4 Forgive us our sins,
for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.
And lead us not into temptation.’”

Matthew 23

9 And do not call anyone on earth your father, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.

We pray to the Father in Heaven in Jesus name.

John 14:13

"Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Hebrews 7:25

Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them

God Bless and Amen

The Church never taught that anyone needs to ask anyone for prayers in order to be saved.

It's as simple as - we ask other people to pray for us. We are actually commanded to pray for one another, and that is the example of the Apostles. The Church simply teaches that those who have died in Christ are now alive in Christ, and in communion with Him, and continue to pray for us. Incidentally with much better knowledge now of how to pray for us because they are with Christ and He knows - their understanding now is not limited by their own earthly concerns. And it is because of their communion with Christ that they can know if we ask them to pray for us, since they are not omniscient.

The confusion comes by misunderstanding "pray". To pray is simply to ask. It does not imply worship. But we do honor those who have run the race well and completed the course.

But some have perhaps misunderstood, or noted excess attention paid to a person who has died, and reached their own conclusions - applying them to all Christians who practice such things and assume they have fallen away. Anti-Catholic propaganda is common in the west for the past half-millennium. But you are right that such practices were always part of belief in the East.

Your question assumes the point of view of those who accept that teaching condemning those who accept the practice.

The Church has dealt with various issues from the time of the Apostles. It's unavoidable, because humans make up the Church. But she has never ceased to exist.

Much of the church apostacised at the time of Constantine. How can dead people help you. Many so called saints were evil people and many never actually existed. Some Roman 'saints' are actually pagan gods sanctified, such as Bachus and others.

HTacianas said:

I'm not trying to stir up strife here, but I hear accusations hurled at the Catholic Church of bringing heresies into the Church such as prayers for the intercession of the saints.

But it is not only the Roman Church that has that tradition. It is the tradition of all of the Churches founded by the apostles, even those long out of communion with Rome.

If prayers to saints is a heresy, and all of the original Churches pray to saints, what became of Christianity for all those years?

Click to expand...

Christianity is not about praying to the Saints. This is just a theological difference. Some choose to pray directly to the Father, some choose to have intercessors. We all stand on one thing, Jesus Christ of Nazareth is our King in the Kingdom of God.
Blessings

Maria Billingsley said:

Christianity is not about praying to the Saints. This is just a theological difference. Some choose to pray directly to the Father, some choose to have intercessors. We all stand on one thing, Jesus Christ of Nazareth is our King in the Kingdom of God.
Blessings

Click to expand...

OH? Is that your considered opinion?

• 1 Timothy 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

David Kent said:

OH? Is that your considered opinion?

• 1 Timothy 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Click to expand...

What is a mediator?

Is anyone who prays for us a mediator?

Maria Billingsley said:

Christianity is not about praying to the Saints. This is just a theological difference. Some choose to pray directly to the Father, some choose to have intercessors. We all stand on one thing, Jesus Christ of Nazareth is our King in the Kingdom of God.
Blessings

Click to expand...

I would say that it is important enough to matter, not like what the shape of the Communion bread should be.

Nevertheless, I like your basic message because it counters the strange idea that a doctrinal disagreement would imperil the very existence of Christ's church.

I generally will pray to the Father, though sometimes I will focus more on Jesus or the Holy Spirit, depending on what the nature of the prayer is. Then any departed saints can join in intercession for me if they are able and so led. I also generally take the same tact with the intercession of angels. I pray, and whatever is appropriate in the spirit realm can happen, according to God's delegation of authority.

To make a big deal of direct intercession to the departed - I don't see justification for it in Scripture. Would I condemn it? I don't think so, if it's properly done. But I have no leading to engage in it.

But as far as the main question goes, don't be surprised if God finds Himself in the minority. It often is that way.

David Kent said:

OH? Is that your considered opinion?

• 1 Timothy 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Click to expand...

I only follow what the Lord teaches us on how we should pray:

8 “Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9 In this manner, therefore, pray:

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

❤

Albion said:

I would say that it is important enough to matter, not like what the shape of the Communion bread should be.

Nevertheless, I like your basic message because it counters the strange idea that a doctrinal disagreement would imperil the very existence of Christ's church.

Click to expand...

Just trying to find some unity in our disunity.
Blessings

I think the issue is more systemic for Protestants since it's not just that the Church (the major communions of Catholic, Orthodox and Oriental) condoned and incorporated prayers for the dead and to the saints in the liturgy itself but that the entire structure and theology of the Church itself apparently deviated from it's Apostolic message for the majority of the Church's existence.

For example, if Sola Fide is an essential part to the Christian faith, without which there cannot truly be said to be the Gospel then the absence of such a Gospel theology from the creeds, which focused on Christology primarily, becomes inexcusable. Either the early Church didn't know it should have codified Faith alone as Protestants have done or knew faith alone but failed to make it explicit and muddied the theological water with language that imparts works and implies that doing good works in someway contributes to our salvation.

Protestantism we are told represents the biblical faith and if this is true we would note the differences between the ancient Churches and the Churches of the reformation. If this is so we should perhaps consider each innovative practice that the early Church was engaged in, like monasticism, a departure from authentic Christianity since Protestantism largely rejects the notion of cloistered life. Protestantism, being the purer distilled Gospel has implied in it's rejection of the monastic life those who lived that Church endorsed life were in a fundamental error.

Another issue is the Church itself, which we learn from Protestantism isn't limited to any earthly communion but in all communities who confess a similar perspective about Christ. How were the fathers of the ecumenical councils justified in proclaiming rules for the whole Church, creeds for the whole Church? They did not have the authority to hold captive anyone's conscience to their man made rules. The local Church community is not bound to recognize another within Protestantism and indeed they don't have to, since God knows the true composition of his Church so that this issue of earthly schism does not matter. Schism for the early Church mattered a great deal more than it does within Protestantism which by it's very nature is fragmented.

This critique is mostly against those Protestants who claim they are truly in line with the Historic Church, that they are not a new movement but were always present. I don't think there's a good way for that Protestant to deal with their implicit and explicit repudiation of the Church of the past. I think the restorationist or those who say the Church just fell away into utter corruption have a slightly stronger case. It makes no sense historically and it destroys Christ's promise to his own Church but it is consistent.

David Kent said:

Much of the church apostacised at the time of Constantine. How can dead people help you. Many so called saints were evil people and many never actually existed. Some Roman 'saints' are actually pagan gods sanctified, such as Bachus and others.

Click to expand...

Just so you understand, pagans often named their children after their deities, so you had people with names like Bacchus, and Diana, and even Jupiter. Many of the pagans who converted to Christ had such names. The new converts would go through a period of catechism before their baptism and they would usually be given a new name at their baptism which reflected their rejection of their former pagan belief. Some, however, were martyred before they had a chance to be baptised and thus entered the ranks of the Saints with their pagan names. That is why there is a Saint Bacchus and a Saint Diana and others like them.

Also, if you say much of the Church apostacised at the time of Constantine, what historical evidence can you offer that traces those who did not, as you claim, apostacise?

If the church can bind and loose things, why do they need to pray to saints?

The Church did not apostasize during the time of Constantine, though Constantine did bring some unhealthy tendencies into Christianity (such as imperialism and state religion), but these are different from the usual things that American evangelicals complain about.