Where did the Church first go wrong?

[Wolf_Says]

If a discussion of where it was that the church of Christ first went wrong brings forth posts from people insisting that that church was the same as the denomination that they belong to today, these posters are virtually daring members of other Christian denominations to correct the record.

However, the quote that I provided by Otto had no reference to ANYTHING that we are discussing in this current thread now did it?

He thought it was a chance to make a jab at Catholicism, and I pointed that out. Or can you show me where his post has anything to do with what I was debating against with Guide?

Because I am missing it completely then.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

Good try in your attempt you accuse me of something I never said.

I do think highly of how Jesus chose Paul, but please provide the verse that shows that casting lots was a problem. Please.

And please explain to me how the apostles OF ALL PEOPLE would not know that, if it was wrong. They had been with Jesus since the begining; hearing all of His teachings and witnessing all of His miracles.

How on earth would they, the apostles, not know that? They knew the OT well as it was custom for Jews in that time, and they also were present at every miracle and teaching. How could they not have known?

That makes absolutely no sense!

How? Because Jesus never taught anyone to cast lots. It was only a practice for the priest in the temple when carrying out there traditions and you know how Jesus felt about the priest and their traditions (or at least you should do) .

 

[Rick Otto]

Exactly what does this have to do with the current topic?

There are plenty of verses in the Bible to back up Catholic beliefs, and John 21 is merely 1 of them.

But once again, what does this have to do with the topic at hand? Or is just a chance for you to try and take a cheap shot at Catholicism?

Don't choke on your own spit.

 

[Wolf_Says]

That was the specifications of who they thought would make a good Apostle, not Jesus'. Unless you think the Apostles have authority over Jesus?

But with reasoning like this: "Catholics were, and still are, the first Christians." Then I bet you probably do.

Please stop placing words in my mouth, it shows poorly upon you.

I never said that the Apostles have authority OVER Jesus, I said that the apostles have authority GIVEN TO THEM by Jesus. These are completely different things.

Once again, you keep claiming that they are wrong, yet you have yet to sufficiently back up that claim. You just keep saying that they are wrong, they didn't know, or they were mistaken, and you use a verse without completely quoting it, essentially cutting off half of verse 4 as proof.

 

[Wolf_Says]

Don't choke on your own spit.

Wow, okay I guess somebody woke up on the wrong side of the bed.

Sorry, not sure why you are in such a bad mood, I do hope that it gets better though.

 

[Caminator]

No valid reason for that assumption. Even in English, rock can be used as a compliment or an insult. Do you think Jesus was insulting Peter when he named him rock?

Jesus didn't call Peter a rock. He called him little stone. Jesus was referring to the revelation Peter had that Jesus is the Son of the living God, saying that revelation is the rock, and upon THAT rock, the revelation, Jesus would build His church.

 

[Albion]

He thought it was a chance to make a jab at Catholicism, and I pointed that out. Or can you show me where his post has anything to do with what I was debating against with Guide?

Because I am missing it completely then.

Well, I also found you to have written the following:

Now of course this depends on what Apostolic Church you ask, but no, without the ECF and the Early Church (which I will say is the Catholic Church), there would be no Bible as we know of it today.

The apostles and their disciples wrote the Bible, and the these men were members of the Early Church, the Catholic Church.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

Please stop placing words in my mouth, it shows poorly upon you.

I never said that the Apostles have authority OVER Jesus, I said that the apostles have authority GIVEN TO THEM by Jesus. These are completely different things.

Once again, you keep claiming that they are wrong, yet you have yet to sufficiently back up that claim. You just keep saying that they are wrong, they didn't know, or they were mistaken, and you use a verse without completely quoting it, essentially cutting off half of verse 4 as proof.

You'll need to back up that accusation with evidence that I did that of course. Anyway why defend Peter and the others for making a mistake by starting a man made lottery system that was open to corruption. With each successive election of pope there is gradual creeping towards selecting from a group that can become increasingly worldly rather than godly. It gradually pushes out God from the selection process and increasingly so over the years that it carry's on for. That is why the Catholic Church is so corrupt. With all there wealth that should be given to help the poor. All the sex scandles. All the inquisitions etc etc..

 

[Wolf_Says]

How? Because Jesus never taught anyone to cast lots. It was only a practice for the priest in the temple when carrying out there traditions and you know how Jesus felt about the priest and their traditions (or at least you should do) .

He also never taught AGAINST casting lots, unless you can provide for me a verse that I cannot seem to find anywhere.

So once again I ask you, how would they NOT have known, as you claim, as they were closer to Jesus than any of us, ever! They were there, with him, through everything. They heard all the teachings, saw all the miracles, and yet you are telling me that somehow, somehow, they were in outer space when Jesus said "btw, no more casting lots."??

That is an absurd statement, and logically makes no sense at all.

 

[Rick Otto]

Wow, okay I guess somebody woke up on the wrong side of the bed.

Sorry, not sure why you are in such a bad mood, I do hope that it gets better though.

Always does when the victim card is withdrawn by oversensitive snarks. Thank you.

 

[Wolf_Says]

Well, I also found you to have written the following:

Yes, but did I specifically attack Guide's denomination, or Rick Ottos? No, what I did was defend mine considereing that Guide has since been attacking it inside the context of this topic (Peter).

Rick Otto, who I have not communicated with this entire thread, suddenly out of nowhere takes a jab, quoting a part of scripture that has no place in this thread and it's topic.

Explain to me how that works?

 

[Rick Otto]

Well, I also found you to have written the following:

Supremacism is better served unapologetically.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

He also never taught AGAINST casting lots, unless you can provide for me a verse that I cannot seem to find anywhere.

So once again I ask you, how would they NOT have known, as you claim, as they were closer to Jesus than any of us, ever! They were there, with him, through everything. They heard all the teachings, saw all the miracles, and yet you are telling me that somehow, somehow, they were in outer space when Jesus said "btw, no more casting lots."??

That is an absurd statement, and logically makes no sense at all.

You seem to be under the delusion that casting lots is a good thing to do. Try telling that to Jesus:

Matthew 27:35
When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

 

[Wolf_Says]

Always does when the victim card is withdrawn by oversensitive snarks. Thank you.

When did I play the victim card.....? I am having a blast! When did I play the victim card? All I did was call you out on a post that had no purpose in this thread and I had not even quoted or responded to you prior.

Don't get defensive now. Please explain where did that seemingly random jab at me come from?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

He also never taught AGAINST casting lots, unless you can provide for me a verse that I cannot seem to find anywhere.

So once again I ask you, how would they NOT have known, as you claim, as they were closer to Jesus than any of us, ever! They were there, with him, through everything. They heard all the teachings, saw all the miracles, and yet you are telling me that somehow, somehow, they were in outer space when Jesus said "btw, no more casting lots."??

That is an absurd statement, and logically makes no sense at all.

And they were in the process of being taught by Him how to respond to His invisable presence. Yet they reverted to Levitical practices that He was there to disqualify and to inagurate in the Melchisadec priesthood which casts no lots because it's exclusive to His leading.

 

[Wolf_Says]

You seem to be under the delusion that casting lots is a good thing to do. Try telling that to Jesus:

Matthew 27:35
When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

Yeah, so the soldiers cast lots dividing up Jesus' garments. However, once again, Jesus did not forbid this practice anywhere. Unless you can provide the verse where Jesus teaches against casting lots.

 

[Albion]

Yes, but did I specifically attack Guide's denomination, or Rick Ottos? No....

But with respect, that isn't the issue. It certainly does not pertain to my post in which I simply noted that when a topic that asks about the Christian experience in general results in members of any one denomination replying to say that the early church is synonymous with their own denomination and it alone...doing that naturally results in members of other denominations feeling the need to set the historical record straight.

 

[Wolf_Says]

But with respect, that isn't the issue. It certainly does not pertain to my post in which I simply noted that when a topic that asks about the Christian experience in general results in members of any one denomination replying to say that the early church is synonymous with their own denomination and it alone...doing that naturally results in members of other denominations feeling the need to set the historical record straight.

So setting the historical record straight, which btw they have not, is "don't choke on your spit"?

Truly, this is very enlightening indeed!

I will have to keep that in mind. I guess my question is, Albion, do you think Rick Otto was justified in his remarks towards me, or not? Other than that I fail to see why you ever care to respond to the matter, as it did not concern you.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

Yeah, so the soldiers cast lots dividing up Jesus' garments. However, once again, Jesus did not forbid this practice anywhere. Unless you can provide the verse where Jesus teaches against casting lots.

You've missed the point. Paul was the replacement chosen by Jesus our Lord and Saviour. Matthias was chosen by men. Which one do you think was Judas' replacement?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

You've missed the point. Paul was the replacement chosen by Jesus our Lord and Saviour. Matthias was chosen by men. Which one do you think was Judas' replacement?

The wordage of being present with Jesus is what is being used as the disqualifier to that and according to OT scripture...