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Citizen of the Kingdom

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That's funny when you consider how many various interpretations are contained in the word church. What you bring up to your church would be the opposite of what others would bring up to their church to recieve an opposite interpretation.
Rather the example Jesus left was to give unto God that which belongs to God and give to Ceasar that which belongs to Ceasar. IOW, give gvmnt to those who demanding to be governors, honor to those deserving of honor.
 
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Rick Otto

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QUOTE="Wolf_Says, post: Who are you to say that it is not for the Church?
He wasn't speaking for (especially what you define as) the Church.
You can't address his idea if you blow his assertion all out of proportion.
Take a deep breath brother, we need your informed passion applied to the right nail.


What would have happened had the apostles not pass down their authority to other men?
Calibrating authority to pedigree is OK, but not at the cost of truth. The rap sheet is centuries long and currently includes pedophilia and money laundering. Let's not go there.

Well actually it is easy to see, the Protestant Reformation.
Meaning the tide turned aginst the Inquisition's style of enhanced interrogation.

The Church was started by Jesus Christ, who positioned Peter as the head of the Apostles (Matthew 16:18-19)
A common mistake easily explained and corrected.

He then later gave power to these apostles to forgive sins (John 20:23)
And ability to bind and loose, which means to bind to heaven or remove from heaven (Matthew 18:18)
And He commanded them to go and baptize all nations (Matthew 28:19)

The Church is the pillar and bulwark of truth, (1 Timothy 3:15)
So how could this be an error, that they elected a new apostle?
He told you. Their instructions were to wait. Period.
The anti-catholicism in this thread is astonishing to say the least. Never ceases to amaze me.
Victimville is a fun place to commiserate, but the menu gets old pretty quick.
 
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Guide To The Bible

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Good grief, now you're going to far. I'm not trying to assassinate the pope .I'm just pointing the first mistake the church made in casting a lot when they were not told to do that , or at least implied.
 
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Light of the East

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Good grief, now you're going to far. I'm not trying to assassinate the pope .I'm just pointing the first mistake the church made in casting a lot when they were not told to do that.

Okay.....but look at our conversation. It turned in the direction of defining the Church, which I responded to. And in this thread, there have been others who have stated that the authority to make such decisions, no matter what manner they are made in, has been given to the bishops of the Church by Christ Himself. That is why we are defending the Church and why I have said that you need to become Catholic (or Orthodox).
 
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chevyontheriver

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But that is universally accepted as the case, even by your own church and even though she puts a different twist on the meaning of it all.
Is it universally accepted that in Acts 1 James was the head of the Church? I'm not seeing that. I can give you that in Acts 15 one of the Jameses was the head of the Church in Jerusalem. But forcing that backwards to Acts 1 is a creative anachronism.
 
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Light of the East

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You utterly missed my point, didn't you? When the earliest Christians used the word "church," they meant one, single organization. It had one set of leaders. It had specific places of worship with specific rubrics of worship to follow. There were not fifty dozen churches, all free-lancing and not listening to the authority of Paul or Peter or Linus. You wouldn't go to one congregation and find them using bread and wine and the next using crackers and water for communion.

There is no "interpretation" about this. God gave the Church to the world for its salvation. God gave to the Church leaders whom He promised to lead into all truth when the Holy Spirit came upon them at Pentecost. You do not "interpret" orders - you obey them!!
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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The problem is that of exclusion of way too much of what actually is the church in your limited interpretation of what you think the church is.
 
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Guide To The Bible

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Yeah I'm sure Peter was thinking along similar lines as he sat there waiting and it all seems so reasonable. Why not. Lets just do that thing. No one can stop me and I have free will to do that thing. Okay so no one told me to do it but hey, can't I do something that I think is reasonable after all I'm not a bad guy and Jesus put me in charge of the rest of the 11. Yeah I'm going to do, it must be fine. I'm sure God won't mind either.

If I had a penny for every time I thought something like this I'd be pretty rich I can tell you.
 
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Thursday

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When did the church first went wrong? My answer to OP:

When so called Christians did not follow Jesus His example nor follow the bible to the letter.

The early Church didn't even have the bible.(the New Testament)

Not sure your idea holds water.
 
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Guide To The Bible

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Just wanted to say that was a brilliant post - bit long though.
 
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LoveofTruth

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I strongly disagree with your understanding ( according to scripture) i will have to discuss it more fully later i am on my way out. But that verse in hebrews does not say what you think. The word "obey" there is not the same Greek word for Children "obey" your parents. It means to convince or persuade, and the word submit there is not the same word as wives submit to their husbands in greek, it means to yield as in combatants. What is actually being said in hebrews 13:7 and 17, is to listen and be convinced by the word of God that has been spoken of through oversight, yield to the word, and be convinced by the word as it is soundly taught.

Luther said a good thing when he said he didn't believe in the authority of Popes and c counsels, but rather his conscience was captive to the word of God

The scriptures and the Spirit are the authority. If any man speaks contrary to them he has no authority.

Jesus was challenged on his auhtority by the pharisees, who were in a positional authority but not spiritual or moral. jesus was asked by what authority he does these things. He was not a earthly kung or leader as they understood. All believers have similar authority in this way, when they speak and live the word of God and are led by the Spirit.

Jesus said if any man comes over others in authority they are wrong and this should not be so among the saints. The gentile authority is exactly what we see everywhere today in the church, sadly.

In Titus we read of overseers qualifications and one of them is to hold fast the faithful word ( or to have the rule in the spirit and the word) and to be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and CONVINCE the gainsayers. The authority is in the word and in the spirit not in mens persons as the Gentile authority.

Yes elders are to feed and watch over others ( not Lord over) but this is because they are skillful in the word of righteousness and have had their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Babes are unskillful in the word of righteousness. But babes can still minister as they are led in the gifts God gives in every gathering ( 1 Cor 14:26-38, 1 Peter 4;10,11, Colossians 3:15,16, Ephesians 4:15,16 etc etc etc etc etc )

Authority is not as the worlds authority but only in the word of Gods grace and the Spirit. We read the verse " these things speak ..with all authority". The authority is when the word is spoken.
 
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Albion

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Re-enacting the feasts is the favourite which is great but it misses the point of the feasts in the first place. There are many other things like that too but feast are there for end times instruction and most completely miss this.
Thanks. You did mention the " feasts" previously, I know; but I'm not aware of many churches that keep the OT feasts and festivals other than for the Jehovah's Witnesses and Armstrongites, neither of which is normally considered to be Protestant. And there may well be independent congregations doing so. The other churches keep all, most, or parts of the historic Christian calendar and do not observe the Jewish holidays (at least not to my knowledge). So that's what I was thinking.
 
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Jesus only started one Church and he told you to listen to it.

You don't.
Do you mean the pope, you, your bishop, your minister? Because yes I don't listen to them/you. I listen to the trinity and read His Word just as Jesus taught and just as you should too.
 
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Albion

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Is it universally accepted that in Acts 1 James was the head of the Church? I'm not seeing that.
And I didn't mean to say that I see it myself. This may be part of the confusion that's developed here. My point was simply that Peter isn't shown in scripture to be any kind of universal head of the church...to which end I cited the role of James. But that wasn't to say he was the "real" pope instead of Peter; it was to say that there was not understood to be any such figure as a pope, and Peter, despite his prominence or importance, clearly did not exercise such authority.
 
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Yes Jesus 'book ends' his instruction to express the point that they must do nothing, or at least that is what is implied.
 
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Yes and they failed to keep one single order to Wait.
 
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Thursday

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Do you mean the pope, you, your bishop, your minister? Because yes I don't listen to them/you. I listen to the trinity and read His Word just as Jesus taught and just as you should too.


Yes, the Church that is 2000 years old and that most Christians belong to.

Jesus didn't write a book, he started a Church. He gave his Church his authority to make rules and to forgive sins. His Church then wrote down his teachings and proclaims throughout the world as it has been doing for 2000 years.

What did Jesus tell us to do when two Christians have a dispute?
 
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