Where Did Lazarus Go When He Died? Did He Go to Heaven and Back?

[Pedrito]

I find it very interesting, but not necessarily surprising, that after many months, nobody was willing to answer the very simple request in Post #38 on Page 2 (regarding the story of Lazarus and the rich man). It was particularly asked of Job8, ewq1938 and Gunny, but open to all.

Those three people are invited to demonstrate their seriousness and openness to Scripture by simply explaining, clearly and honestly, the ways in which the interpretation of Luke 16:19-31 that is generally promoted in Evangelical circles, actually contradicts core Evangelical teaching. (Other Readers are invited to offer explanations also, if they so wish.)

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However, in Post #39 on Page 2, Rohan asked a very sensible question.

As a follow up question to this, When Peter raised Dorcas from the dead, did she go to heaven, since this was post resurrection of Jesus?

Adding that to the equation, are we not seeing a pattern emerge – a pattern emerging in God’s Holy Revelation to us?

Before Jesus’ death, Lazarus died. When Jesus brought him back to life, nobody though to ask him what it was like where he had been.

After Jesus’ death, Dorcas died. When Peter brought her back to life, nobody thought to ask her what it was like where she had been.

Why not?

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What had Jesus and the apostles actually taught those people? And what had God revealed in the inspired “Old Testament”, of which Paul said (2 Timothy 3:15):

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

And 2 Timothy 3:16:

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

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Just what do the Old and New Testaments state in agreement, happens to people when they die?

If God does indeed present a consistent understanding in the Old and New Testaments, regarding what happens to people when they die, then He plainly and unequivocally tells us the answers to “where did Lazarus go before he came back to life”, “So Pedrito, tell us PRECISELY where Stephen went after he died?”, and “When Peter raised Dorcas from the dead, did she go to heaven, since this was post resurrection of Jesus?”.

What exactly is that consistent information that the Bible as an inspired whole presents to us in that regard?


Anyone?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So, how can someone demonstrate that they are truly open enough to give unbiased, serious consideration to scriptures that could be presented?

So, how can someone demonstrate that they are truly open enough to give unbiased, serious consideration to scriptures that could be presented?
Easy.

Easy?, yet decades, even centuries of false tradition to overcome.
How can that be done ? Many generations .... not so easy...

 

[Pedrito]

In Post#42 on Page 3, yeshuaslavejeff offered:

Pedrito said: ↑
So, how can someone demonstrate that they are truly open enough to give unbiased, serious consideration to scriptures that could be presented?

Easy.

Easy?, yet decades, even centuries of false tradition to overcome.

How can that be done ? Many generations .... not so easy...

It was good to see that someone is both aware, and honest enough to actually admit, that false tradition is the obstacle that prevents people being able to give unbiased, serious consideration to scriptures that could be presented (regarding what happens to people when they die, for instance).

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It is indeed the preconditioning that people receive from their church groups, that hinders and prevents them from approaching the God’s Holy Bible with fresh eyes. Fresh eyes would allow them to discern the true meaning of Scripture statements and passages, without trying to make them fit into preconceived ideas. It is truly difficult to shake that pre-conditioning. It requires true dedication to God and His inspired revelation, as opposed to pre-eminent loyalty to a person’s church and various cherished doctrines.

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Now, Pedrito assumes that yeshuaslavejeff, as an Anabaptist, was excluding “Evangelical” churches from the “centuries of false tradition” charge. However, maybe that exclusion is itself open to question.

For instance, many “Evangelical” and “believers baptism” churches have as a foundational doctrine, the “age of accountability” (however termed). Yet the Holy Scriptures nowhere teach that. So even that belief can be accurately labelled a “tradition of men”, even if it is proves to be totally necessary to support other doctrines.

If yeshuaslavejeff holds to that belief, then he now understands in a truly personal and uncomfortable way, how he himself (and others like him) may be hindered in a way that he might not have applied to himself.

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To help yeshuaslavejeff take the first step towards giving unbiased, serious consideration to scriptures, Pedrito now includes him personally in the list of people to whom Pedrito issued the request (challenge?) (see Post #38 on Page 2):

Those three [[now four]] people are invited to demonstrate their seriousness and openness to Scripture by simply explaining, clearly and honestly, the ways in which the interpretation of Luke 16:19-31 that is generally promoted in Evangelical circles, actually contradicts core Evangelical teaching.

(Other Readers are invited to offer explanations also, if they so wish.)

 

[thesunisout]

a speaker at my church (dean braxton actually) once said that people die when the soul leaves the body, not the other way around. was lazarus's soul in his body when he died? was he taken back from heaven and hell when he was ressurected, or did it only appear that he died?

You have to realize when you ask people this question everyone is going to come pouring in with their pet doctrines. The truth seems to be that scripture doesn't give us enough information to say absolutely, for sure what happened. We have bits and pieces of information that people put together in different ways to paint very different pictures.

My personal belief is that Lazarus went to Abrahams bosum, the place of the righteous dead, until Jesus resurrected him. Where Abrahams bosum was, whether it was in Heaven or not, I do not know. I don't think Jesus would resurrect anyone who went to Hades, since they are at that point under eternal condemnation.

Someone said in this thread that if a certain point were true, someone would have asked Lazarus and he would have answered and that it would have been recorded in the scriptures. That is all speculation, considering that it is the Holy Spirit who decides what should and should not be in scripture for His own reasons and Gods glory. And that is what a lot of this is in this thread, speculation.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

scripture doesn't give us enough information to say absolutely, for sure what happened.

YHWH says PERFECTLY in HIS WORD, all through HIS WORD no contradictions.
No worries , no doubts.

And that is what a lot of this is in this thread, speculation.

I haven't read the whole thread, but as most of the forum is even less than speculation (rather is directly without truth or scripture)
it is no surprise here.

 

[Pedrito]

And there we have it.

Still no answer to the request posed in Post #38 on Page 2, and repeated in Post #43 on Page 3. In Post #43 yeshuaslavejeff was added to the list from whom explanation was requested.

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However, yeshuaslavejeff made a noteworthy point in his Post #45 on Page 3:

I haven't read the whole thread, but as most of the forum is even less than speculation (rather is directly without truth or scripture)

it is no surprise here.

That was in response to thesunisout’s comment in Post #45 on Page 3:

And that is what a lot of this is in this thread, speculation.

yeshuaslavejeff is now in a position to start reversing that trend by answering the question previously posed (as can Job8, ewq1938 and Gunny, and anyone else who would like to help out):

Those three [[now four]] people are invited to demonstrate their seriousness and openness to Scripture by simply explaining, clearly and honestly, the ways in which the interpretation of Luke 16:19-31 that is generally promoted in Evangelical circles, actually contradicts core Evangelical teaching. (Other Readers are invited to offer explanations also, if they so wish.)

Hopefully, yeshuaslavejeff will be willing to pick the ball up and run with it.

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To make it easy for people, here is the text of Luke 16:19-31.

“19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.”

In what obvious way or ways does this story told by Jesus contradict normal “evangelical” doctrine?

 

[Pedrito]

yeshuaslavejeff made another noteworthy point in his Post #45 on Page 3:

YHWH says PERFECTLY in HIS WORD, all through HIS WORD no contradictions.

No worries , no doubts.

That was in response to thesunisout’s comment in Post #45 on Page 3 regarding Lazarus’ state when he died:

scripture doesn't give us enough information to say absolutely, for sure what happened.

It would therefore not seem inappropriate to request of yeshuaslavejeff, that he tell us, invoking “the whole counsel of God” (the whole God-inspired Bible, both Old and New Testaments), what “[COLOR="#A5025C”]YHWH says PERFECTLY in HIS WORD, all through HIS WORD no contradictions[/COLOR]” regarding “where did lazarus go before he came back to life”.

I suspect that a number of people might be interested to know.

 

[DennisTate]

a speaker at my church (dean braxton actually) once said that people die when the soul leaves the body, not the other way around. was lazarus's soul in his body when he died? was he taken back from heaven and hell when he was ressurected, or did it only appear that he died?

Dean Braxton is amazing!

 

[DennisTate]

a speaker at my church (dean braxton actually) once said that people die when the soul leaves the body, not the other way around. was lazarus's soul in his body when he died? was he taken back from heaven and hell when he was ressurected, or did it only appear that he died?

That is awesome that your church was able to get Dean Braxton there!

Did you ever have any other guest speakers with a testimony somewhat like his, Howard Storm for one possible example?

 

[PROPHECYKID]

a speaker at my church (dean braxton actually) once said that people die when the soul leaves the body, not the other way around. was lazarus's soul in his body when he died? was he taken back from heaven and hell when he was ressurected, or did it only appear that he died?

Lazarus is a living soul, he does not have a soul.

 

[mmksparbud]

a speaker at my church (dean braxton actually) once said that people die when the soul leaves the body, not the other way around. was lazarus's soul in his body when he died? was he taken back from heaven and hell when he was ressurected, or did it only appear that he died?

He never said a word about it---neither did any of about 12 people in total that were resurrected in the OT and NT.

Psa_115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Ecc_9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

 

[ewq1938]

Lazarus is a living soul, he does not have a soul.

Every human has a soul and a spirit inside of their bodies.

1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

a speaker at my church (dean braxton actually) once said that people die when the soul leaves the body, not the other way around. was lazarus's soul in his body when he died? was he taken back from heaven and hell when he was ressurected, or did it only appear that he died?

Lazarus' soul left his body and went to the "Abaraham's bosom" portion of Sheol, where the faithful dead ALL went before the Ressurection. Since his SIN was still on him, heaven couldn't be entered, until his SIN was cleansed by Jesus' Sin OFFERING on Calvary. Obviously, then, he was called back from Sheol.