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Where did all the C14 go?

TasManOfGod

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here are some relevant reads
page 3:
Has the C-14/C-12 ratio (equilibrium) always been constant?

page 4:

Factors that could have affected past C-14 levels
  • World Carbon Inventory
  • Cosmic Ray Intensity
  • Geomagnetic Field Intensity
  • Water Content of the Outer Atmosphere
page 5:


Is there any Data That Would Support the Above Assumptions of a global flood?
  • Anomalous fossil C-14 Dates
  • C-14 Age Profile of Ancient Sediment and Peat Accumulations
page 6:
Does Coal have a residual level of C-14 left from before the Flood?
 
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philadiddle

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here are some relevant reads
page 3:
Has the C-14/C-12 ratio (equilibrium) always been constant?
We know that it hasn't always been constant. We adjust it as such: File:Radiocarbon dating calibration.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The above link only goes back a little ways but the link below goes back 50,000 years.
http://researchcommons.waikato.ac.nz/bitstream/10289/3622/1/Hogg Intcal09 and Marine09.pdf

page 4:



Factors that could have affected past C-14 levels
  • World Carbon Inventory
  • Cosmic Ray Intensity
  • Geomagnetic Field Intensity
  • Water Content of the Outer Atmosphere
Of course these are already taken into consideration.
page 5:




Is there any Data That Would Support the Above Assumptions of a global flood?
  • Anomalous fossil C-14 Dates
  • C-14 Age Profile of Ancient Sediment and Peat Accumulations
C14 can form in the earth as well because of radioactive strata. Bacteria can also get into the earth and give C14 readings. The above 2 points mentioned have already been considered by scientists and taken into account. This is not evidence for a young earth.

I don't see an argument here for a young earth, I just see you trying to poke holes in well supported dating techniques. This doesn't make the earth young, if our dating methods are wrong maybe it's actually older than we think!?

What were the C14 levels before the flood? What predictions does that give us about what we are supposed to find? I'd like to know how the evidence supports and explains your view, not just how you think another view might be flawed.
 
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TasManOfGod

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We know that it hasn't always been constant. We adjust it as such: File:Radiocarbon dating calibration.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The above link only goes back a little ways but the link below goes back 50,000 years.
http://researchcommons.waikato.ac.nz/bitstream/10289/3622/1/Hogg%20Intcal09%20and%20Marine09.pdf

Of course these are already taken into consideration.
C14 can form in the earth as well because of radioactive strata. Bacteria can also get into the earth and give C14 readings. The above 2 points mentioned have already been considered by scientists and taken into account. This is not evidence for a young earth.

I don't see an argument here for a young earth, I just see you trying to poke holes in well supported dating techniques. This doesn't make the earth young, if our dating methods are wrong maybe it's actually older than we think!?

What were the C14 levels before the flood? What predictions does that give us about what we are supposed to find? I'd like to know how the evidence supports and explains your view, not just how you think another view might be flawed.
no definitive rebuttal there
Here is a diagram you might have missd from the above website:
refer here for details:Carbon 14 Dating: What assumptions should we take?

assumption.gif


or from another angle

AdjustedC14.gif


details here: http://www.creation-science-prophecy.com/C14e.htm
 
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philadiddle

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no definitive rebuttal there
Here is a diagram you might have missd from the above website:
refer here for details:Carbon 14 Dating: What assumptions should we take?

assumption.gif


or from another angle

AdjustedC14.gif


details here: Carbon 14 Dating: What assumptions should we take?
What evidence is there that either of those graphs are correct?

One of the many major errors in the link you provided is that there is residual C14 in fossils. Of course, fossils occur when the biological matter is replaced by minerals, so any C14 in the fossil would be unrelated to the live of the organism. Should I point out the other easy to spot errors?
 
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TasManOfGod

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What evidence is there that either of those graphs are correct?

One of the many major errors in the link you provided is that there is residual C14 in fossils. Of course, fossils occur when the biological matter is replaced by minerals, so any C14 in the fossil would be unrelated to the live of the organism. Should I point out the other easy to spot errors?

Perhaps you missed this bit:

Since the counting process does not seem to be the source of the "contamination", lets assume that the "contamination" is somehow a characteristic of the sample itself. There are three possibilities for the presence of the C-14 in the sample.
  1. Source contamination with modern Carbon
  2. in situ formation of C-14
  3. Residual activity from the time of burial (resulting from the Global Flood)
To consider a source contamination of all states of fossil carbon (coal, oil and natural gas) we would have to have a worldwide exchange involving at least 50% of the entire Biosphere with all types of fossil carbon to give the level of C-14 that we see in samples. In addition that worldwide exchange would have to be so pervasive that similar levels of C-14 would be present in all type of fossil carbon regardless of the state.
This level of contamination is hard enough to believe with oil and gas, but would be extremely incredible with coal!
In situ formation of C-14 has been ruled out by others in the field. "Subsurface production of radiocarbon is negligible (Zito et al. 1980) (Florkowski et al. 1988)
The only other possibility is the presence of residual activity. Fossil carbon would then have to be quite young. If this result holds up over time, it would mathematically eliminate the whole evolutionary time scale. There would be no possible way for the geologic column to be 60 - 600 million years old.

Hey why dont you just face both truth (as in the Word of God) and facts (the unadulterated results of proper scientific study )
 
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philadiddle

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Perhaps you missed this bit:

Since the counting process does not seem to be the source of the "contamination", lets assume that the "contamination" is somehow a characteristic of the sample itself. There are three possibilities for the presence of the C-14 in the sample.
  1. Source contamination with modern Carbon
  2. in situ formation of C-14
  3. Residual activity from the time of burial (resulting from the Global Flood)
To consider a source contamination of all states of fossil carbon (coal, oil and natural gas) we would have to have a worldwide exchange involving at least 50% of the entire Biosphere with all types of fossil carbon to give the level of C-14 that we see in samples. In addition that worldwide exchange would have to be so pervasive that similar levels of C-14 would be present in all type of fossil carbon regardless of the state.
This level of contamination is hard enough to believe with oil and gas, but would be extremely incredible with coal!
In situ formation of C-14 has been ruled out by others in the field. "Subsurface production of radiocarbon is negligible (Zito et al. 1980) (Florkowski et al. 1988)
The only other possibility is the presence of residual activity. Fossil carbon would then have to be quite young. If this result holds up over time, it would mathematically eliminate the whole evolutionary time scale. There would be no possible way for the geologic column to be 60 - 600 million years old.

Hey why dont you just face both truth (as in the Word of God) and facts (the unadulterated results of proper scientific study )
The red emphasis above is mine. It's amazing that the writer of this article is unaware of the fact that C14 isn't only made in the atmosphere. There is a direct correlation between the C14 in coal seams and the level of radioactivity in nearby strata. C14 can be made in the earth as well, in very small quantities, but not in a way that is useful enough to be a dating method. That is why coal isn't dated with carbon dating. The "only other possibility" that they mention isn't actually the only other possibility.
 
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7angels

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what if the earth is over millions of years old? maybe even a 100 million years or more? there is a possible biblical reason. what if we are just too narrow minded to believe it possible? science should be able to explain how God accomplished what he did. but the wall we run up against with science being able to explain is maybe we do not have the revelation needed in order to put all the pieces together which makes it look like there is a contradiction. people say the bible is full of contradictions but as you study the bible you find that everything seems to flow and be in harmony. maybe we are having the same problem with science.
 
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TasManOfGod

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what if the earth is over millions of years old? maybe even a 100 million years or more? there is a possible biblical reason. what if we are just too narrow minded to believe it possible? science should be able to explain how God accomplished what he did. but the wall we run up against with science being able to explain is maybe we do not have the revelation needed in order to put all the pieces together which makes it look like there is a contradiction. people say the bible is full of contradictions but as you study the bible you find that everything seems to flow and be in harmony. maybe we are having the same problem with science.
Maybe the problem is with the scientific folk themselves rather than with the science
 
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TasManOfGod

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The red emphasis above is mine. It's amazing that the writer of this article is unaware of the fact that C14 isn't only made in the atmosphere. There is a direct correlation between the C14 in coal seams and the level of radioactivity in nearby strata. C14 can be made in the earth as well, in very small quantities, but not in a way that is useful enough to be a dating method. That is why coal isn't dated with carbon dating. The "only other possibility" that they mention isn't actually the only other possibility.

What realy is amazing is how you missd this bit:
In situ formation of C-14 has been ruled out by others in the field. "Subsurface production of radiocarbon is negligible (Zito et al. 1980) (Florkowski et al. 1988)
 
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shernren

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Perhaps you missed this bit:

Since the counting process does not seem to be the source of the "contamination", lets assume that the "contamination" is somehow a characteristic of the sample itself. There are three possibilities for the presence of the C-14 in the sample.
  1. Source contamination with modern Carbon
  2. in situ formation of C-14
  3. Residual activity from the time of burial (resulting from the Global Flood)

Notice that this list does not include contamination during the measurement process, which is in fact the exact reason for these radiocarbon dates.

From this link: RATE's Radiocarbon - Intrinsic or Contamination? we obtain the following important piece of information:
“The oldest 14C age equivalents were measured on natural diamonds which exhibited the highest current yields” [4]. This important observation provides evidence about the source of the radiocarbon.

If the radiocarbon were intrinsic to the sample, there would be no change in the radiocarbon ratio with sample current. The 14C, 13C, and 12C would change in unison. However, if the radiocarbon were coming from ion source memory or elsewhere in the accelerator, it should give a count rate independent of ion source current. Normalizing the radiocarbon count rate to the ion source current, which is predominantly 12C, would result in higher radiocarbon content for lower source currents, as observed. This data provides clear evidence that at least a significant fraction of the radiocarbon detected by Taylor and Southon in diamond measurements did not come from the diamonds themselves and thus could not be “intrinsic radiocarbon.”

The lower values for unprocessed diamond and the current-dependent behavior find no explanation in Baumgardner’s “intrinsic radiocarbon” model. But these results fit well with the Taylor and Southon evidence that instrument background (specifically ion source memory) is material-dependent, with diamond exhibiting significantly less ion source memory than graphite. The radiocarbon detected in natural, unprocessed diamond measurements seems to be nothing more than instrument background.​

Let me just explain in layman terms:

C-14 sticks on the walls of the spectrometer and is re-emitted during measurement; this forms a measurement background that must be subtracted from the reading. The RATE team refused to subtract this background in claiming their C-14 results. But we can't blame them: maybe this whole sticky C-14 thing is a bogus evolutionist cover-up, right?

Enter the evidence shown above. Basically, "current" measures how quickly material is being ejected from the sample onto the measurement device. A higher current means the diamond is spitting more carbon (C-12, C-13 and C-14) in the same amount of time. If the C-14 we were detecting came from the diamond, then we would expect the C-14/C-12 ratio to be the same regardless of source current: you might get 3 C-14 to 30 C-12 instead of 1 C-14 to 10 C-12, but that would still give the same apparent age.

But suppose the diamond were pure C-12, and there was C-14 coming from the instrument. The key here is that the rate at which the instrument leaks C-14 does not depend on the source current. Suppose that 1 C-14 atom were leaking from the instrument in a certain period of time: it would be that same 1 atom whether the diamond was spewing 10 or 100 C-12 atoms. In that case, one would expect that as the current increases, the apparent age goes down: a lower current would have a ratio of 1 C-14 to 10 C-12, but a higher current would have a ratio of 1 C-14 to 100 C-12.

And that is exactly what we see. Note once again that this result directly contradicts the results we should expect if the C-14 is coming from the diamonds themselves.
 
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