Where are we now in the book of Revelation?

Old Timer said:

IMO it's no different in your situation, my situation, any persons situation.. because not a single one of us is the standard of the truth.

We all see dimly through a glass... remember?

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You forgot James:

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

One time I did not see some Mark 16 verses being true in my life: the "signs" of the believer. So I began bugging God about those verses. I don't think I missed one day of bugging Him for about six months. That alone had to be the Holy Spirit helping me but I did not know it. One day on a prayer walk, as I began to ask Him, suddenly He spoke. I heard what sounded like an audible voice. I believe it was the Father, for He said, "Son, I did not mean believer the way you mean believer, as someone that just misses hell and makes it into heaven..." He went on to explain what HE meant by a "believer."

In every case when I have heard what sounds like the audible voice of God, my natural senses have been suspended and I am rendered speechless. God is speaking to my spirit, and my spirit man answers Him.

Once again, if you are not hearing from God, when the bible says you SHOULD BE, I would RUN to the nearest closet and begin asking God WHY. He is the SAME, yesterday, today and forever. He never changes. If He spoke to men in the book of Acts, He is SURELY speaking to men today. The problem is, we as the body of Christ in general, have drifted SO FAR from the book of Acts. God is calling us back.

LAMAD

Old Timer said:

Here's another simple question which I hope can further illustrate these things..

"What else" within chapters 4-20 of the revelation pertain to things which are either in the past or pertain to the present?

Is it just these first few verses of Rev 12 which must be put into the past.. or is there more?

I'd be willing to bet that there is nothing else besides these few verses in Rev 12 which must be placed into the past.. rather than allowed to be within the context of the things which shall be hereafter.

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How many times have I written here that the vision of the throne room, chatpers 4 & 5 were all a history lesson for John. It was history then and is history now. That part of the vision points to a time before Jesus was raised from the dead, then to a time after He rose, and finally when He ascended. I have explained this over and over on this forum.

I understand very well, preconceived glasses prevent people from understanding the truth. One could NEVER learn that 2 plus 2 equals 4 if they believed firmly that 2 plus 2 equaled 5. To come to the truth, they would have to UN-believe their error in thinking. For many people, this un-learning process is very painful. It hurts their pride. How could "they" have been wrong? One time a prophet told a pastor that he needed to get up in front of his congregation and tell them he had been wrong about something. The prophet told him if he did not, he would die. He told the prophet, "I'll die. I cannot tell them I have been wrong." And within a couple of months, he died. Some people cannot admit, even to themselves that they have been wrong.

People need to learn to read the scriptures with a OPEN SLATE, so to speak, and form their doctrine from what is written. This is why it is SO DIFFICULT to get someone out of a cult. They have firmly believed the lies, and demonic spirits help them confirm the lies as truth.

LAMAD

Old Timer said:

I hope that this illustrates the extreme importance of the example which Peter writes in the word of God concerning the scriptures being a more sure word of prophecy than if we were to hear the voice of God as he did on that mountain.

Because if the truth is reduced to what I hear versus what you hear.. then it's your word against mine.. although if all men are liars and His word alone stands.. then it's HIS word against ours.

Tremendous difference to say the least.

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Old Timer, do you not understand that this is EXACTLY what has happened in the churches today? HOW MANY different denominations do we have, each claiming to have the truth, yet with conflicting doctrines? The truth of this is, FEW PEOPLE know how to get the Holy Spirit to be their teacher.

Did you get that? The Holy Spirit will NOT teach one group one thing and another group another thing. For the most part, people that started denominations THOUGHT they had truth, when they did not.

Case in point: HOW MANY denominations skip over Acts 1 & 2 as if these two chapters were not in their bible? Old Timer, you know that YOU have skipped over these two chapters. When it is the Holy Spirit that is to lead us into all truth, and so many denominations IGNORE Him, is it no wonder the church is so split over doctrines? We ALL need to learn how to get the Holy Spirit to be our teacher, for it is very plain that for the most part, He is NOT.

LAMAD

Old Timer said:

Of course the Spirit of God leads us into all truth.. so is it now a matter of not having the baptism of the Spirit again?

Like you have it and I don't because you're in the spirit and I'm in the flesh?

Is that the problem?

How does this relate to what you believe about Rev 12?

Do you believe that it's impossible for you to be wrong in your thoughts about it because you've heard God tell you that it's in the past.. or is there the possibility that you can be wrong.. with of course myself included?

The way that I'm hearing LAMAD right now is that there is no possible way that he can be wrong about Rev 12 being in the past.. because he claims that God told him that it is in the past.

How about your thoughts on that?

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Old Timer, there may well be level after level of truth in those 5 verses that I know NOTHING about. I only know what they SAY and What the Holy Spirit TOLD me about them. Please remember, the Holy Spirit did not just TELL me something. He pointed to SCRIPTURE and explained it.

LAMAD

Old Timer said:

What would you think the purpose of God speaking to our hearts and minds without that being directly linked to the scriptures?

My thoughts would be in the sense for people without scripture and being convicted of certain things perhaps.. but the point which I'm trying to center on is that God speaks through His written word, the holy scriptures which are able to make us wise unto salvation..

All other voices have a problem with being subjective don't they..



I agree that it's not a game breaker or anything like that although look at what has happened here in this thread.. it's a perfect example..

There's a person who says that Rev 12 is in the past because the LORD told him so apart from the scriptures..

All I'm saying is that I'm hearing the LORD within the confines of HIS WORD which is clearly saying that these are the things which shall be hereafter.

See any difference?

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Old timer, this is simply NOT TRUE. He EXPLAINED scripture. How could this be "apart from the scriptures?"

LAMAD

Old Timer said:

What would you think the purpose of God speaking to our hearts and minds without that being directly linked to the scriptures?

My thoughts would be in the sense for people without scripture and being convicted of certain things perhaps.. but the point which I'm trying to center on is that God speaks through His written word, the holy scriptures which are able to make us wise unto salvation..

All other voices have a problem with being subjective don't they..



I agree that it's not a game breaker or anything like that although look at what has happened here in this thread.. it's a perfect example..

There's a person who says that Rev 12 is in the past because the LORD told him so apart from the scriptures..

All I'm saying is that I'm hearing the LORD within the confines of HIS WORD which is clearly saying that these are the things which shall be hereafter.

See any difference?

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Old timer, how many times have I told you, John did NOT write, he would wrote ONLY of things hereafter. I know your preconceived glasses want an ONLY there, but it is not there. You need to read that verse in line with this one:

19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Old timer, does this verse not include things of HISTORY?

LAMAD

Old Timer said:

Here's how I see it broadly..

The Prophets speak of the coming DAY of the LORD..

The Apostles speak of the coming DAY of the LORD..

Revelation 4-20... IS the DAY of the LORD.. it is the miraculous detail of the events of that DAY.. which shall come as a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child..

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Old timer, this shows us that you have preconceived glasses on. WHO TOLD you that the Day begins in chapter 4? It is a fallacy!

Did you overlook where John wrote, "The Day of His wrath has come?" Why are you trying to move that two chapters earlier in John's book?

Do you really think that God would be ANGRY (wrath) at HIS ONE PEOPLE and cause them to be martyrs? Old Timer, the martyrs are Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. It would be completely silly to imagine that seal #5 is a part of God's wrath. The same goes for seal #1. Read that seal closely: you will not find ONE WORD that even hints of evil. Indeed, John used white 17 times in Revelation, each time to represent righteousness. The first seal is the CHURCH sent out to make disciples of all nations. Is that future? Of course it is not.

LAMAD

Old Timer said:

I agree that anything we hear must be according to the scriptures.. although I'm not sure you're grasping the magnitude of the point here..

What voice is more important? One that we hear in our mind or one that hear from the studying the scriptures?

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Old Timer, this is like asking, "what do you want: a piece of pie or a piece of cake? WHY CHOSE when I can have a piece of BOTH?

OF COURSE we can and should study scripture, but you are leaving out the helper: one who comes along side to HELP US understand. Of course I am speaking of the Holy Spirit. I am telling you as gracefully as I can that there are things about the Holy Spirit that you know NOTHING about, because in your walk with the Lord, you SKIPPED OVER Acts 1 and 2. Most people study the bible ONLY with their own understanding. It is a fact. It is truth. It is the very reason we have so many denominations, all disagreeing with each other. Old Timer, are you afraid of the Holy Spirit? He is GOD!

LAMAD

bibletruth469 said:

I agree for the most part. I do think that revelation 12 is an example of a vision that God wanted John to understand ( like a story that someone tells about the past ) Future things can then be understood better., before He moved on with the order of judgements that will follow. I believe that the book for the most part is in chronological order. God is very orderly and His time line does make sense. God does fill in the details along the way in the book, but these details happen in close proximity to the event that takes place.

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Many times in writing today we see parenthesis (something set apart with punctuation marks to show it is an explanation) in the writing, but the Greeks had no such marks. Indeed, John USED parenthesis as we know it today, but there are no marks to delineate them. The first 5 verses of chapter 12 are a parenthesis that has NO BEARING on John's chronology.
Another parenthesis that most people miss is 11:4-13.


LAMAD

Old Timer said:

Like what.. speaking in tongues, that sort of thing?

TO me it's sad that people resort to this type of commentary.. you don't have the Spirit of God and I do.. sort of thing..

Really?

No need to answer lamad.. I probably won't be able to understand your elite spirituality.

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Don't be coy. Just follow the word of God. Do I need to get into it and help you? I grew up in a church that did not teach ANYTHING about the Holy Spirit and skipped preaching about Acts 1, 2, 8, 10, and 19. That God a young lady without a ride to church got me introduced to the Holy Spirit. I have never been the same.

Acts 1:
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Was this a suggestion or a command? Can you use this scripture for doctrine?

Many will say, yes, but they were born again in Acts 2....nothing more that being born again. Many are wrong. THIS is where they were born again:

John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

So what happened in Acts 2?

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.


I did not bring up tongues, you did. WHY? Because you KNEW it was in scripture. So what happened? They received just what Acts 1 told them to WAIT FOR: the mighty baptism with the Holy Spirit. Did you ever notice what this experience did to Peter? It CHANGED him. It gave him boldness. It gave him wisdom.


Now see how Peter described this event:

Acts 11
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Do you see it? This is NOT the Holy Spirit within, as in regeneration or born again - this is the Holy Spirit UPON or ON. It is the anointing for ministry. Jesus COMMANDED them to wait for it. But today, churches ignore it. WHY? You can be SURE the devil is behind it. He is SCARED of the anointing, and will do ANYTHING to keep Christians from learning anything about it. Now, notice how Peter Himself said this experience was the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Acts 8
5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
8 And there was great joy in that city.

WHY was there great joy in the city? It is easy: MANY had received Jesus and were born again, and obtained "joy unspeakable." This is when they got the Holy Spirit WITHIN.

2 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

This was water baptism. This tells us that they all were born again. Philip would not baptize with water unless they BELIEVED.

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
WHY? Was Philip not doing a good job? Many were entering the church and the body of Christ. Well, Luke TELLS Us why:

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were [water] baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Notice, they were first born again, then water baptized, and finally had hands laid on them and they received this mighty baptism with the Holy Spirit.

If you study this, there must have been something VISIBLE happened, for Simon SAW or HEARD something so he knew people had received the Holy Spirit. without much doubt, they prayed in tongues as is shown in the other texts.

So, Old Timer, here it is in black and white: SCRIPTURE showing that people in the early church received the baptism of the Holy Spirit AFTER they were born again. Now, I want you to ask yourself, HOW can I fulfill this scripture UNLESS I receive this baptism as they in the early church received?

Jude
20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

1 Cor. 14
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Make no mistake, when Paul speaks of praying in the Spirit, he is talking about praying in tongues:

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

WHO prays? It is the human SPIRIT praying. No one can fulfill these scriptures unless they first receive the mighty baptism with the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues, so they CAN pray in the Spirit.

So it is up to the readers: will you continue on as DISOBEDIENT Christians and RESIST the Holy Spirit? Or you will begin to investigate and receive this great gift? Always remember, you are OUTSIDE the perfect will of God until you received this great gift of the Holy Spirit upon you. Some go so far as to say disobedient Christians will not go up in the rapture. I have never said this, but it could be possible.

LAMAD

Old Timer said:

SO you speak in tongues..

How super spiritual you are.. maybe someday all Christians can be like you and tell others as gracefully as possible what they're missing.

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Don't be ridiculous. We are both members of the ONE BODY of our Lord Jesus Christ. We should both strive to be last in this life, so we can be first in the next. By the way, I did not write the book of Acts. I only pointed you to it.

You can go through life as a Christian WITHOUT the anointing; untold millions have done it before you. But WHY? What is it about Acts 1 and 2 that you don't wish to follow? Will you go so far as one famous TV preacher (a baptist) and get pushed so far into a corner that you will say, "we just can't use the book of Acts for doctrine!" I wonder how that will work for him at the judgment seat of Christ?

What will YOU say when Jesus asks you, "why did you not receive my mighty baptism with the Holy Spirit?"

It is your life. I just hope you will make wise decisions. Will you tear the book of Acts out of your bible? Or will you begin to desire what they had?

LAMAD