Aron-Ra said:
Christian beliefs vary wildly from person to person, so you're supposed to clarify.
Christian teaching isn't determined by the opinions of men, but by scripture.
These things are not taught in scripture.
What do you mean 'most of them weren't Christians'?
By "most of them weren't Christians", I meant that most of them weren't Christians.
The Reverend Jim Jones; -did his suicide scene not indicate a sincere conviction to his proclaimed Christian belief?
I think you gotta be pretty well convinced before you go and do what he did, don't you? Are you really saying that David Koresh neither declared his Christianity nor lived it out?
Both Jim Jones and David Koresh preached a false gospel. In fact, both of these men proclaimed themselves to be the Christ, which shows us using both scripture and logic that they could not have been Christians. Where was the evidence of regeneration? Both of them lived ridiculously sinful lifestyles.
What about Martin Luther?
What about him?
Adolph Hitler declared his Christianity many times in his publications and his speaches, and even in private corrospondance to his friends. He felt he was "doing the Lord's work" remember?
He felt he was doing the Lord's work?
What does Matthew 7:21-23 say about that?
Hitler was not a Christian. He was an occultist. That Hitler was into the occult is one of the most widely known facts about him.
Dracula might not have still been a Christian upon his death, (but of course even Bram Stoker had no way to know that) so he likely was,
So then the fact that Dracula was not a Christian at the time of his death proves that he was a Christian?
Well, you certainly can't argue with that logic.
By the way, Bram Stoker's "Dracula" was not a biography.
and every one of the other people I listed as Christians did indeed proclaim themselves as such and continued to indicate that to the ends of their lives.
But were they? Did they live for Christ? Did they follow Christian teaching? Sadly, the answer for most of these people is no.
Did you even look at this list? Don't you know who any of these people were?
Yes, I know who they are.
The point is, Smith appeared to believe it easily as much as any other priest of any other denomination, and a whole bunch of other Christians believe that too. Over 12 million are active just in their clergy right now, and they all believe they are at least as Christian as you are, if not more so.
Simply believing in something does not make it so.
You can be sincere, yet be sincerely wrong.
The bottom line is that you can't say you follow Christ and then contradict His teachings.
Either you follow him or you oppose him.
Do you realize that you still don't know who (or what) "most" of them were?
No, I didn't realize that. I guess the fact that I know who they are confused me about not knowing who they are.
I'm pretty 'up' on my history, thank you.
Evidently not. You've gotten most of your historial "facts" wrong.
Some gun battle. Smith and his brother were unarmed. The jail had been swarmed by an exclusively Christian mob, and they were both murdered like shooting birds in a cage. Not only that, but Smith really was shot in the back.
Joseph Smith was not unarmed.
In fact, one of his own cellmates (and co-conspirators) tells in the book, "The Gospel Kingdom" (a
Mormon source, no less)...
"Elder Cyrus H. Wheelock came in to see us, and when he was about leaving, drew a small pistol, a six-shooter, from his pocket, remarking at the same time 'Would any of you like to have this?' Brother Joseph immediately replied, 'Yes, give it to me,' whereupon he took the pistol, and put it in his pantaloons pocket. The pistol was a six-shooting revolver, of Allen's patent; it belonged to me, and was one that I furnished to Brother Wheelock when he talked of going with me to the east, previous to our coming to Carthage" (The Gospel Kingdom, p.358).
My whole family, and most of the people I have ever known in my childhood are all Mormons, yet I am not.
So what? Most Mormons don't even know what Mormonism teaches. Ask a Mormon about the "Mountain Meadows Massacre" or why up until just a few years ago, they didn't even allow blacks to recive the priesthood and they won't know what you're talking about.
I researched that religion in-depth from outside, independant sources.
You may have but you didn't study the account at the Carthage jail.
What else could they have been? Muslim? Hindu? Do you think Smith was murdered by renegade Buddhists of the Old West?
So then, you don't know, you're just assuming?
They were mobs of mostly (if not exclusively) Protestant Christians,
How do you know? Your statement above seems to indicate that you're just guessing.
outraged by prejudicial propaganda that labeled Smith as a "heretic among heretics".
Do you believe that he was a heretic?
The indignation of other Christians over the Mormons lead Governor Lilburn Boggs of Missouri, (a Kentucky Christian himself)
Normally, I would take your word for this, but since most of the people you've listed as Christians actually
weren't Christians, how do we know that this man was a Christian?
And at the very least most of those mobs were Christians.
How do you know?
One who professes a belief in Jesus as the Christ, their personal saviour, and the son of God. How do you define it that you can exclude all these priests, monks, bishops, saints and warriors for the Lord?
I don't define it and I don't exclude anyone.
The Bible tells us that if we believe in our hearts and confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord, we will be saved. But don't be fooled into thinking that this is just lip service.
The Bible goes on to tell us that, if we have believed in our hearts, the heart will be regenerated by the Holy Spirit and that this will be evidenced by our lifestyles. This is why Jesus said, "by their fruits, you shall know them".
Most of the people you've listed did not live a lifestyle that showed regeneration by the Holy Spirit.
The truth is, that you would think that Hitler did says more about you than it does about Hitler.
So then, if the answer is no, what does the Bible say?
Not only that, but I said she was female, a respected scholar, and an advocate for reason in science education.
Oh, well, in that case, she couldn't possibly have been a Christian.
Yet you seem to think that is reason enough for your god to torture them forever without mercy.
No, I don't but then again, putting words in my mouth seems to be a regular thing with you.
Then it shouldn't be that hard for you to give us an example.
I've never said such a thing and if you're going to say that I have, then you need to back it up.
Then there's your answer.
That and Jesus isn't really in Heaven where everyone expects him to be. He's in Hell soaked in the blood of all the supposed sinners he squishes into his winepress all day.
Really? Where does the Bible say this?
Where does it say that Jesus "squishes [sinner] into his winepress all day".
How do you reconcile this with Rom 5?
You tell me that I should study history (despite the fact that I have minor in
history), yet, you don't know anything about the Christian teaching or Mormon history that you are commenting on.
Yes, He is a loving Saviour. So loving, in fact, that He went to heroic lengths - even to the point of laying down His own life - to reconcile us to God and to save us from Hell.
And what is the "sin" for most of these damned souls? They were able to reason. Well, I can reason too. So I guess Jesus is going to be crushing me forever.
Did you know that the Bible invites us to reason and to love God with all of our heart,
mind and soul?
Now, since the Bible is obviously dead-wrong about so much of what it says about this world, then I figure it must be wrong about the next one too. So what is the real criteria for Heaven and Hell, huh?
Well, since you've shown that you have absolutely no idea what the Bible says, could you please give us a couple of examples of it's errors about the world, citing chapter and verse, please?
