Where are the human bones and remains from the flood?

[KerrMetric]

Why must it be deceit? You behave as all there is to be known, is known. That anything beyond your understanding? Is impossible.

No not beyond understanding - it is contradicted by understanding. You can hide behind the "all there is to be known is not known" card but the fact is what would be required as changes to physics and geology for your "flood" to have happened would invalidate the predictive ability of all physics. The fact is physics works and the ridiculous things required for the Noachian Flood to have occurred and left us with what we see would make us incapable of modelling even the simplest of physical systems like billiard balls colliding or gases expanding. In other words the entire edifice of physics would collapse and experiments could not be predicted.

This is one of the fundamental weakmesses or amateurs proposing scientific models - they think it is OK to say that for instance the speed of light has changed to allow some particular YEC form of lunacy but they fail to grasp all the other consequences of such a change due to their lack of knowledge. They are blinkered by the problem at hand they are looking at due to, quite simply, not having a clue about science.

Some YEC arguments have bitten the dust because the absurdities were too obvious even for them and resulted in ridicule. A great example is the vapour/water canopy arguments which are complete nonsense from even physics at a middle school level which most (though embarrasingly some cling to it) Creationists don't use anymore.

But the run of the mill Creationists (i.e. the masses who accept it blithely) of which many on here fall into - merrily carry on with even the ridiculous arguments like vapour canopies and the like.

This is exactly what you get when you have a group of people pontificating about things they know nothing about and without the training or education in the subject to spot the nonsense.

 

[KerrMetric]

I'll be patiently waiting for your illumination that is dearly needed to begin to understand what is needed.

What you need more of is to pick up an introductory geology/geophysics text and take the time to understand it. That would prevent a good percentage of the waffling on here. There is no point in you claiming water came out of the Earth or from the sky to create great depths (or whatever else you want) without understanding the basic physics of heat, gas laws, classical mechanics etc. that invalidate the whole idea.

 

[GenemZ]

No not beyond understanding - it is contradicted by understanding. You can hide behind the "all there is to be known is not known" card but the fact is what would be required as changes to physics and geology for your "flood" to have happened would invalidate the predictive ability of all physics. The fact is physics works and the ridiculous things required for the Noachian Flood to have occurred and left us with what we see would make us incapable of modelling even the simplest of physical systems like billiard balls colliding or gases expanding. In other words the entire edifice of physics would collapse and experiments could not be predicted.

Are you saying that God must submit to the same law of Physics, as men do? I think you are saying that.

God can walk through walls, yet manifest himself in physical form. Can phyics replicate that in a repeatable experiment? If not? This passage, as you put it... is 'crap', too?

John 20:26-28 (New International Version)
"A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"


​

Jesus walked through walls!

Yet? You are demanding that God submit to his own creation? After all, God lives outside of 'time and space.' Yet? You demand that he submit at all times to his creation of time and space?

I do not think its a problem with the laws of physics (which will pass away). I think its a failure to correctly perceive who and what God is. It seems, you are demanding that God submit to the same laws as we must.

This is one of the fundamental weakmesses or amateurs proposing scientific models - they think it is OK to say that for instance the speed of light has changed to allow some particular YEC form of lunacy

Like I said? Your power of observance is revealing that you do not pay attention to the details. I am not YEC. I have told you this. Just as I have told you I am not an advocate of there being a universal Noahic flood. That is a troubling trait to have for someone who's discipline depends on astuteness and alertness to detail.

Some YEC arguments have bitten the dust because the absurdities were too obvious even for them and resulted in ridicule.

I agree!

But, why are you telling me this?

But the run of the mill Creationists (i.e. the masses who accept it blithely) of which many on here fall into - merrily carry on with even the ridiculous arguments like vapour canopies and the like.

Curious? How can you prove that at one time there was no such canopy? If it did? It only lasted a short time in history.

This is exactly what you get when you have a group of people pontificating about things they know nothing about and without the training or education in the subject to spot the nonsense.

I think you need to join YEC Anonymous? For, you are seeing YEC's where they do not exist.

In patience, GeneZ

 

[The Lady Kate]

Are you saying that God must submit to the same law of Physics, as men do? I think you are saying that.

CAN God break the laws of physics whenever He feels like it? Of course He can.

IS he in the habit of doing so without a reason? Not really.

God wants to flood the entire planet to wipe out the wicked... ok, fine, He's God. but why then leave no trace of the flood? Why hide it?

God can walk through walls, yet manifest himself in physical form. Can phyics replicate that in a repeatable experiment? If not? This passage, as you put it... is 'crap', too?

John 20:26-28 (New International Version)
"A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"



​

Jesus walked through walls!

Technically, no he didn't. All it says is that Jesus got in even though the doors were locked. If you want to add to Scripture, and insert a miracle, that's your business....

But maybe someone let Jesus in. Maybe he had a key. maybe he climbed in through the window. Maybe Jesus had some knowledge of Quantum Mechanics and was able to bypass "solid" matter.

You wanted a miracle, so you wrote one in where one was not explicitly mentioned... bypassing natural explanations, and going straight to the supernatural. Imagine the chaos if everyone did the same!

Yet? You are demanding that God submit to his own creation? After all, God lives outside of 'time and space.' Yet? You demand that he submit at all times to his creation of time and space?

He seems to "submit" far more often than He chooses not to. Shall he break the rules to satisfy you?

I do not think its a problem with the laws of physics (which will pass away). I think its a failure to correctly perceive who and what God is. It seems, you are demanding that God submit to the same laws as we must.

And you are demanding He break those laws to prove your own interpretation of the Bible to be correct.

God doesn't seem to have a problem with the laws of physics (which will pass away, but not yet)... Ybut you seem to.

Curious? How can you prove that at one time there was no such canopy? If it did? It only lasted a short time in history.

What canopy? Why do we need a canopy now?

 

[gluadys]

Are you saying that God must submit to the same law of Physics, as men do? I think you are saying that.

God made the physical laws for a purpose. To unmake them would mean God's purpose is also unmade. He would have to begin creation all over again every time he voided the laws of physics, because those laws are the basis of all physical reality. Without them, the universe does not exist.

God can walk through walls, yet manifest himself in physical form.

But did he ever walk through walls while in a physical form?

Yet? You are demanding that God submit to his own creation? After all, God lives outside of 'time and space.' Yet? You demand that he submit at all times to his creation of time and space?

God submits to His own will. That requires that He keep the laws of time and space in place, for to do otherwise would void His will to sustain creation.

 

[KerrMetric]

Genez,

I wasn't calling you a YEC. I was replying to some of your points but I was also addressing common aspects of YEC arguments.

As for a canopy - it cannot exist for even the briefest of time spans - it is inherently unstable dynamically and could only exist supernaturally. Now of course we can say God did that but then the question comes as to why did God even use a canopy at all.

This goes back to the conundrum Creationists using science always fall into. They want to use science as much as possible to show plausibility but then as soon as a tough problem arises in their hypothesising they resort to the "God did it that way because he can" argument. Fair enough - but then why use any science in the argument at all and just say God engineered it all by divine fiat. Of course - then we have the God is a deceiver problem since the evidence points to standard scientific interpretations.

Let's face it - the attempts to reconcile Genesis with reality are doomed to failure. Genesis as history is just wrong unless you want God to plant false evidence.

 

[Floodnut]

Oh please. Even if you date a flood at four to six thousand years ago, you find plenty of evidence of human proto-civilizations well before that time. Agriculture has been dated to at least 8000 years ago, and the beginnings of the Sumerian, Chaldean, Babylonian, etc. cultures goes back to this time. You can find tons of evidence of proto-cultures before that as well - hunter-gather cultures pretty much the world over.

And, by the way, there are plenty of remains of "proto-humans" as you say - Cro-Magnon, neanderthal, homo erectus, australopithecus... all of these are well known and well documented.

Oh Please. The dates by the unbelieving secularists are incorrect. The earth is only 6000 years old and the Flood occured about 4500 years ago. Unbelieving secularists also date the beginning of the human species at 2-3 million years ago and they are wrong on that too. There are not TONS of evidence that prove your incorrect point.

 

[gluadys]

Oh Please. The dates by the unbelieving secularists are incorrect. The earth is only 6000 years old and the Flood occured about 4500 years ago. Unbelieving secularists also date the beginning of the human species at 2-3 million years ago and they are wrong on that too. There are not TONS of evidence that prove your incorrect point.

What makes you think that only "unbelieving secularists" subscribe to these dates? Plenty of scientists who are believers agree with them. In fact much of the dating was originally established by believers.

 

[Jase]

Oh Please. The dates by the unbelieving secularists are incorrect. The earth is only 6000 years old and the Flood occured about 4500 years ago. Unbelieving secularists also date the beginning of the human species at 2-3 million years ago and they are wrong on that too. There are not TONS of evidence that prove your incorrect point.

Unbelieving secularists? What about the Christian scientists who come up with the same dates?

 

[The Lady Kate]

Oh Please. The dates by the unbelieving secularists are incorrect. The earth is only 6000 years old and the Flood occured about 4500 years ago. Unbelieving secularists also date the beginning of the human species at 2-3 million years ago and they are wrong on that too. There are not TONS of evidence that prove your incorrect point.

All of this based solely on your say so... Why am I not convinced?

 

[steen]

Oh Please. The dates by the unbelieving secularists are incorrect.

What an odd, incorrect and bizarre claim. Lots of Christians agree with the science.

The earth is only 6000 years old and the Flood occured about 4500 years ago.

Hmm, I take it that you utterly ignored the very real evidence provided that showed this to be outright false? There are living plants that are older than that, after all. I guess merely keeping replying "no it aint" while plugging your ears is convenient for you, but at least have the decency to NOT make claims about evidence, then.

Unbelieving secularists...

There is that nonsense, false claim again.

..also date the beginning of the human species at 2-3 million years ago and they are wrong on that too.

Ah, another "just because I claim so" postulation.

There are not TONS of evidence that prove your incorrect point.

Huh? Do you mean to say that there is a lot of evidence for your claim? Then by all means provide it.

 

[GenemZ]

No not beyond understanding - it is contradicted by understanding. You can hide behind the "all there is to be known is not known" card but the fact is what would be required as changes to physics and geology for your "flood" to have happened would invalidate the predictive ability of all physics.

Matthew 14:25-27 (New International Version)
"During the fourth watch of the night Jesus went out to them, walking on the lake. When the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified. "It's a ghost," they said, and cried out in fear.

But Jesus immediately said to them: "Take courage! It is I. Don't be afraid."
​

It seems to me that you are deifying physics if you admit it, or not. That God did not exalt physics above all things.

Psalm 138:2 niv
"I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name for your love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word."
​

The fact is physics works and the ridiculous things required for the Noachian Flood to have occurred and left us with what we see would make us incapable of modelling even the simplest of physical systems like billiard balls colliding or gases expanding.

Hmmmm......

If you say so..... (why argue?)

In other words the entire edifice of physics would collapse and experiments could not be predicted.

God is sovereign. God can alter what ever he pleases.

Numbers 22:27-28 (New International Version)
"When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD, she lay down under Balaam, and he was angry and beat her with his staff. Then the LORD opened the donkey's mouth, and she said to Balaam, "What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?"

​

Well, there goes the neighborhood! The Lord made a donkey to speak! What will become of all the animals, now? He ruined everything! We can never trust an animal again!

This is one of the fundamental weakmesses or amateurs proposing scientific models -

What model? I was not proposing a scientific model! Last time I checked? This is a Christian Forum. I think the Scientific forum is three doors down to the right.

Revisited, GeneZ

 

[GenemZ]

Let's face it - the attempts to reconcile Genesis with reality are doomed to failure. Genesis as history is just wrong unless you want God to plant false evidence.

May we engrave those words on your tomb?

I hope not. For you will not be saying that after you leave this life.

Why have you given up the search? Why have you called it quits, and tell us, that if scientific theory contradicts God's Word? Then, God's Word must be wrong?

Something tells me that you have not been shown what certain words in Genesis says in the Hebrew. When left undefined, it leaves one with ambiguity and can be misleading like you appear to have been.

In Christ, GeneZ

 

[KerrMetric]

Genez,

The Bible is not Gods Word. (Note the capital W)

 

[RealityCheck]

genez -

I'll ask you the question that I would ask anyone who believes as you do.

You clearly believe that the Bible is God's word, accurate as written and infallible.

Now, most Christians accept that it is simple, personal faith that directs them to seek truth in the Bible, but also accept that there is nothing that actually proves the contention that the Bible is the word of God, that God literally dicated every word of it, or anything similar to those lines. Yet this is what you apparently are claiming. Every post where you ask "are you saying God lied" is expressing your belief that the words in the Bible must be true because God spoke or wrote those words.

But what leads you to this belief? I can accept that you've simply decided that it must be so, but you'll also then have to accept that this is your personal faith and belief - there is nothing logical or rational to this belief, because you did not logically or rationally reach this conclusion (see my tag line).

But if you've somehow come to this conclusion logically, rationally, and with some sort of proof - please demonstrate this proof to us.

 

[shernren]

Oh Please. The dates by the unbelieving secularists are incorrect. The earth is only 6000 years old and the Flood occured about 4500 years ago. Unbelieving secularists also date the beginning of the human species at 2-3 million years ago and they are wrong on that too. There are not TONS of evidence that prove your incorrect point.

Which unbelieving secularists are you talking about? Agassiz, or Cuvier?

 

[GenemZ]

Technically, no he didn't. All it says is that Jesus got in even though the doors were locked. If you want to add to Scripture, and insert a miracle, that's your business....

But maybe someone let Jesus in.

Then why mention they were locked?

Maybe he had a key.

Then why even mention the doors were locked? Why make that an issue?

maybe he climbed in through the window. Maybe Jesus had some knowledge of Quantum Mechanics and was able to bypass "solid" matter.

Just maybe? He is God? Just, maybe?

You wanted a miracle, so you wrote one in where one was not explicitly mentioned... bypassing natural explanations, and going straight to the supernatural. Imagine the chaos if everyone did the same!

Whhhhhhhhoooooooooo! Chaos! What a mess we would have!

This is how it really happened.



Jesus knocked on the door. One of the Disciples flipped open the face hatch. Jesus, whispered... "The Father sent me." So? Someone let him into the spiritual speakeasy. Not a miracle.



Amused...
GeneZ

 

[RealityCheck]

Jesus knocked on the door. One of the Disciples flipped open the face hatch. Jesus, whispered... "The Father sent me." So? Someone let him into the spiritual speakeasy. Not a miracle.

This is probably not too dissimilar to how the early church gatherings actually met.

 

[GenemZ]

This is probably not too dissimilar to how the early church gatherings actually met.

The early church had not yet begun. It was yet the age of the Jews. The Church age began after Jesus ascended and was glorified. The Day of Pentecost was Day One of the Church age.

Besides? Why even mention the dooors were locked?

I think this is funny! Like the kid who gets caught with hand in cookie jar. What will he say?

Would make for a good TV show! Instead of "Kids say the Darndest Things?" There should be a new one. "Kids caught with their hand in the Cookie Jar."

The doors were locked.

No one could get in.

But Jesus had a spare key.

So the doors were locked....

Who cares, if that were the case?

In the mean time?

All the points I have made in this thread have been diverted away from.

Observing their ability to observe..... GeneZ

 

[GenemZ]

Which unbelieving secularists are you talking about? Agassiz, or Cuvier?

Hillary Clinton claims to be a believer. John Kerry, too. So?

Agassiz and Cuvier both did not know the following to be known about our faith.

http://www.creationdays.dk/withoutformandvoid/1.html


Being a believer in Jesus Christ, does not guarantee one will become a believer in Christ beyond anything other than the Cross that saved them. Grace shows no favoritism.

Acts 16:31a niv
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved."
​

Grace and peace, GeneZ