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Where are all the bones?

Radrook

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The problem is that you wish to build a house upon nothing.
If a house has no foundation it cannot be constructed.
You wish to give credence to the floors of a building that can't exist.
As I keep pointing out but to no avail, your abiogenesis idea is pure conjecture.
It has never been observed in nature and can't be forced to happen in a lab.
Each floor in your foundationless building depends hypothetically on millions of astronomically statistically unlikely accidents. Not just one-but each one.

You see, the difference between us is that I don't give credence to fantastic claims of that nature when a far more likely, in fact-a compelling alternative is available. I don't pronounce the almost impossibly unlikely as a certainty simply because I can't stomach what the facts clearly indicate.

Yes! I said clearly!

I don't feign blindness to evident compelling phenomenon based on sheer unscientific bias.
Doing so would be quackery and I see absolutely no reason to practice quackery, pronounce it to be science, and then get angry when someone rightfully identifies it as such.

True, you predict and it might turn out that a prediction might appear as a confirmation of an idea. However you glibly reject all other viable possibilities and conclude common ancestry. In short, you aren't open to any suggestion that doesn't fit your atheistic inflexible view. That isn't what science is about.

Science isn't about tossing out cogent reasoning as if totally irrelevant to truth.
In fact, if indeed an idea demands that cogent reasoning be discarded in order to believe something-then that automatically places it in the category of quackery regardless of how vehemently you might say to the contrary.

Now you can respond with "Ï can't see!""
 
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Speedwell

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As I keep pointing out but to no avail, your abiogenesis idea is pure conjecture.
It has never been observed in nature and can't be forced to happen in a lab.
Why to no avail? Every reputable scientist in the field agrees.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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The problem is that you wish to build a house upon nothing.

No, the problem is that in one sentence you claim to not be a science denier and not make absurd claims against solid, well-evidenced and well-established scientific theories, while in the very next sentence you rant about evolution theory.

As I keep pointing out but to no avail, your abiogenesis idea is pure conjecture.

And as plenty of people have pointed out to you: the origins of life aren't withing the scope of evolution theory, which is a model that provides an explanation for how EXISTING life diversifies through reproduction with variation and the struggle for survival through competition for limited resources.

Get it into that brain of yours: abiogenesis and evolution are two different subjects, two different areas of study.

It has never been observed in nature and can't be forced to happen in a lab.

Yet.

Each floor in your foundationless building depends hypothetically on millions of astronomically statistically unlikely accidents. Not just one-but each one.
Literally EVERYTHING is the result of such "astronomical statistics".

Even your own existence. Consider your own bloodline, going back all those generations. YOU are the result of that enormous chain of events. Imagine the statistical improbability of ALL OF YOUR ANCESTORS meeting eachother and mating. Even withing a SINGLE event of conception, imagine the MILLIONS of sperm cells that lost the race - each on of wich would have produced a DIFFERENT human, which would have resulted in you NOT existing.

Your very own existance isn't actually the result of "millions" of such unlikely events. It is actualy the result of BILLIONS, if not TRILLIONS of such events.

And you know what? Each and every potentially possible outcome would have the exact same improbability.

Just like every pokerhand has the exact same improbability. Be it a 8-high hand or a royal flush.

This is the problem with people who don't understand probabilities. Only a chance of 0 means that something is "impossible" - and that's assuming you actually have all the required information to determine that the probability is 0, which simply is not the case when it concerns the origins of life.

In this universe, literally EVERYTHING THAT EXIST had a low probability of existing, when you actually run the numbers. But it's all meaningless.
Because calculating probabilities after the events have already occured, is a pointless undertaking.

You see, the difference between us is that I don't give credence to fantastic claims of that nature when a far more likely, in fact-a compelling alternative is available.

There is no alternative to evolution theory when it comes to explaining the diversity of living things and the pattern life falls into. Compelling or otherwise.

Your religious convictions have no relevance in evidence-based science.

I don't pronounce the almost impossibly unlikely as a certainty simply because I can't stomach what the facts clearly indicate.

Evolution is not only possible, it is inevitable.

Common ancestry of life is a genetic fact.
That life reproduces with variation is a fact.
That natural selection is at work in the struggle for survival and reproduction is a fact.

There's a reason why it's called the "most solid theory in all of science".
There's a reason why people like Francis Collins say that its truth cannot be rationally denied by any educated person.

To suggest otherwise is no more or less then a statement of extreme ignorance (or just a plain lie).


True, you predict and it might turn out that a prediction might appear as a confirmation of an idea. However you glibly reject all other viable possibilities and conclude common ancestry.

There are no viable other possibilities.
Common ancestry is a genetic fact. Ignoring it will not make it go away. It won't change the facts. It won't change our collective genomes. It won't make all life not fall into a branching tree. A nested hierarchy. A demonstrable, verifiable family tree.

The exact same knowledge that is being used to determine if your parents are your actual biological parents.


In short, you aren't open to any suggestion that doesn't fit your atheistic inflexible view. That isn't what science is about.

Evolution has nothing whatsoever to do with atheism and everything with the evidence, as the many, many, many christian evolutionary biologists demonstrate everyday.

Go ask Ken Miller and Francis Collins about their work in biology as well as their religious views. Go ahead. I dare you.

Go ask them, then come back here and see if you can still keep a straight face, claiming the opposite.

Science isn't about tossing out cogent reasoning as if totally irrelevant to truth.

Science is about developing explanatory models that make testable predictions.
Which is exactly what evolution is about. It is also exactly what religious nonsense like ID is not.

In fact, if indeed an idea demands that cogent reasoning be discarded in order to believe something-then that automatically places it in the category of quackery regardless of how vehemently you might say to the contrary.

Now you can respond with "Ï can't see!""

The evolution model doesn't require the denial of verifiable facts. No matter how many times you wish to repeat it.
 
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Radrook

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No, the problem is that in one sentence you claim to not be a science denier and not make absurd claims against solid, well-evidenced and well-established scientific theories, while in the very next sentence you rant about evolution theory.



And as plenty of people have pointed out to you: the origins of life aren't withing the scope of evolution theory, which is a model that provides an explanation for how EXISTING life diversifies through reproduction with variation and the struggle for survival through competition for limited resources.

Get it into that brain of yours: abiogenesis and evolution are two different subjects, two different areas of study.



Yet.


Literally EVERYTHING is the result of such "astronomical statistics".

Even your own existence. Consider your own bloodline, going back all those generations. YOU are the result of that enormous chain of events. Imagine the statistical improbability of ALL OF YOUR ANCESTORS meeting eachother and mating. Even withing a SINGLE event of conception, imagine the MILLIONS of sperm cells that lost the race - each on of wich would have produced a DIFFERENT human, which would have resulted in you NOT existing.

Your very own existance isn't actually the result of "millions" of such unlikely events. It is actualy the result of BILLIONS, if not TRILLIONS of such events.

And you know what? Each and every potentially possible outcome would have the exact same improbability.

Just like every pokerhand has the exact same improbability. Be it a 8-high hand or a royal flush.

This is the problem with people who don't understand probabilities. Only a chance of 0 means that something is "impossible" - and that's assuming you actually have all the required information to determine that the probability is 0, which simply is not the case when it concerns the origins of life.

In this universe, literally EVERYTHING THAT EXIST had a low probability of existing, when you actually run the numbers. But it's all meaningless.
Because calculating probabilities after the events have already occured, is a pointless undertaking.



There is no alternative to evolution theory when it comes to explaining the diversity of living things and the pattern life falls into. Compelling or otherwise.

Your religious convictions have no relevance in evidence-based science.



Evolution is not only possible, it is inevitable.

Common ancestry of life is a genetic fact.
That life reproduces with variation is a fact.
That natural selection is at work in the struggle for survival and reproduction is a fact.

There's a reason why it's called the "most solid theory in all of science".
There's a reason why people like Francis Collins say that its truth cannot be rationally denied by any educated person.

To suggest otherwise is no more or less then a statement of extreme ignorance (or just a plain lie).




There are no viable other possibilities.
Common ancestry is a genetic fact. Ignoring it will not make it go away. It won't change the facts. It won't change our collective genomes. It won't make all life not fall into a branching tree. A nested hierarchy. A demonstrable, verifiable family tree.

The exact same knowledge that is being used to determine if your parents are your actual biological parents.




Evolution has nothing whatsoever to do with atheism and everything with the evidence, as the many, many, many christian evolutionary biologists demonstrate everyday.

Go ask Ken Miller and Francis Collins about their work in biology as well as their religious views. Go ahead. I dare you.

Go ask them, then come back here and see if you can still keep a straight face, claiming the opposite.



Science is about developing explanatory models that make testable predictions.
Which is exactly what evolution is about. It is also exactly what religious nonsense like ID is not.



The evolution model doesn't require the denial of verifiable facts. No matter how many times you wish to repeat it.

My belief in an ID isn't dependent on religion. So you are again employing strawman.

I never claimed that evolution and abiogenesis are identical. Another strawman.

No one is claiming that varied of species doesn't occur. So that is also a strawman.

It is the degree of that variation to the point of eventually turning a fish into a human that is being challenged.

No one is challenging natural selection. Another strawman.

I studied Environmental Science and know that natural selection takes place and how it takes place and don't need anyone lecturing me on the subject. Again, it is the degree or th4e consequences of the natural selection that is being challenged and not its existence.

The race among sperm cells analogy is a false analogy.
Sperm cells will race toward an ovum and only one or two will manage to get their first.
But the improbability of that isn't comparable to the improbability of the billions of happy accidents necessary to produce a living thing. They are qualitatively different. It is like comparing the chances of one horse winning a race with the probability of the emergence of life from nonliving things. One merely requires a chance of location and position or stamina all converging. The other requires infinitely much more.

Say what? LOL!
EVERYTHING is not a matter of astronomically improbable statistics. You seem to be unfamiliar with inductive reasoning and how it is used to determine probability in science. Inductive reasoning's degree of certainty depends on the frequency of an event. For example, the sun will arise tomorrow is inductively justifiable conclusion based on the observation of the billions of years that it has been doing so nonstop. It is this certainty based on inductive reasoning which makes many diverse things very probable and cancels out your idea of everything depends on the astronomically improbable occurrences. That is an essential part of the scientific method and it surprises me that a person who vehemently defends science so much should seem so totally unaware of it.


BTW

Verifiable fact?

According to my extensive investigations idea common evolutionary ancestry is a predetermined conclusion which ignores all other counterevidence simply because the counterevidence offends the taste of the atheist researchers. Once more, that goes completely contrary to the scientific method's modus operandi because it blatantly involves a biased approach and bias is completely incompatible with genuine scientific investigation.

Evolutionists have the habit of finding fossils and stringing them in imaginary sequences to fit preconceptions of what is IMAGINED to be common descent. All other possibilities, regardless of how compelling they might be, are mindlessly shunted aside unceremoniously as of ridiculously no account.
They have been known to totally ignore anything which contradicts their claims.

Furthermore, I find that evaluative criteria is zealously applied when convenient to the atheist agenda and smugly ignored when not convenient to the atheist agenda. No problem. However, that is where cause and effect comes in. You see, unfortunately for atheists, and as the Bible points out, one reaps what one sows which in this case happens to be a deep and justifiable mistrust of those who are claiming to be scientifically objective and serious doubt on all anti-creation claims they might be chancing to glibly make.

Simply stated, it is unrealistic to be demanding trust of proven hoaksters and habitual liars. In order to remedy such a situation of mistrust, I suggest that those claiming to be scientists commence to give proper attention to what deserves to be given proper scientific attention. You know, to things such as the cogent reasoning that is the foundation of true science via acknowledging the strong probabilities which nature displays of an ID instead of repeatedly cancelling previous criteria and suddenly claiming an inability to reason properly. If indeed they continue in ridiculously ill concealed displays of arrogant denials than they deserve absolutely no credit nor any trust for any of the pro-atheistic- anti-ID claims that they make.
 
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Subduction Zone

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My belief in an ID isn't dependent on religion. So you are again employing strawman.

Since there is no scientific evidence for ID it seems that he is not. The problem may be that you do not understand what scientific evidence is.

I never claimed that evolution and abiogenesis are identical. Another strawman.

Then why do you constantly refer to abiogenesis. And your inability to understand a subject does not mean that it is highly unlikely. There have been those that have argued that life is highly likely based on the odds.

No one is claiming that varied of species doesn't occur. So that is also a strawman.

Here is a helpful hint, the way that you responded to him makes his supposed "strawman" arguments impossible to see. You keep claiming that but I can't see any in the post that you responded to. Put a little effort into your reply and break up your response as I have in this post.

It is the degree of that variation to the point of eventually turning a fish into a human that is being challenged.

And there you go using misleading terminology. A fish did not "turn into a human". Some of the descendants of specific fishes continued to evolved until we were the product of that. And that concept is well supported by the scientific evidence, meanwhile you have no scientific evidence at all for your beliefs.

No one is challenging natural selection. Another strawman.

Again, when you don't break up the argument no one can see the supposed "strawman" are you sure that you are using the term correctly?

I studied Environmental Science and know that natural selection takes place and how it takes place and don't need anyone lecturing me on the subject. Again, it is the degree or th4e consequences of the natural selection that is being challenged and not its existence.

It seems that the lesson did not take hold.

The race among sperm cells analogy is a false analogy.
Sperm cells will race toward an ovum and only one or two will manage to get their first.
But the improbability of that isn't comparable to the improbability of the billions of happy accidents necessary to produce a living thing. They are qualitatively different. It is like comparing the chances of one horse winning a race with the probability of the emergence of life from nonliving things. One merely requires a chance of location and position or stamina all converging. The other requires infinitely much more.

Analogies try to simplify arguments for educational purposes. Once again it appears that you did not learn the lesson.

Say what? LOL!
EVERYTHING is not a matter of astronomically improbable statistics. You seem to be unfamiliar with inductive reasoning and how it is used to determine probability in science. Inductive reasoning's degree of certainty depends on the frequency of an event. For example, the sun will arise tomorrow is inductively justifiable conclusion based on the observation of the billions of years that it has been doing so nonstop. It is this certainty based on inductive reasoning which makes many diverse things very probable and cancels out your idea of everything depends on the astronomically improbable occurrences. That is an essential part of the scientific method and it surprises me that a person who vehemently defends science so much should seem so totally unaware of it.

He did not claim that, so now you are the one making a strawman argument. There are countless events with odds so high against them that according to creationist standards they are "impossible". We could take your birth as an example. All we need to do is to consider what the odds were of the one sperm cell that made you got through, and then take that back over as many generations as necessary to get as high of a number as needed, and that is looking at just one small chain of events that led to you. If we figure in all of the odds the odds against your birth will get infinitely large.

BTW

Verifiable fact?

According to my extensive investigations idea common evolutionary ancestry is a predetermined conclusion which ignores all other counterevidence simply because the counterevidence offends the taste of the atheist researchers. Once more, that goes completely contrary to the scientific method's modus operandi because it blatantly involves a biased approach and bias is completely incompatible with genuine scientific investigation.

What "counterevidence"? I have yet to see a creationist that actually understands the nature of evidence.

Evolutionists have the habit of finding fossils and stringing them in imaginary sequences to fit preconceptions of what is IMAGINED to be common descent. All other possibilities, regardless of how compelling they might be, are mindlessly shunted aside unceremoniously as of ridiculously no account.
They have been known to totally ignore anything which contradicts their claims.

There are no other theories out there that I know of. There are no other explanations that have not been thoroughly refuted. Once again, do you have any actual evidence that backs up your claims?

Furthermore, I find that evaluative criteria is zealously applied when convenient to the atheist agenda and smugly ignored when not convenient to the atheist agenda. No problem. However, that is where cause and effect comes in. You see, unfortunately for atheists, and as the Bible points out, one reaps what one sows which in this case happens to be a deep and justifiable mistrust of those who are claiming to be scientifically objective and serious doubt on all anti-creation claims they might be chancing to glibly make.

LOL!! There is no "atheist agenda". The theory of evolution is not an atheistic claim, it is a scientific one. I am willing to bet that there are far more Christians that accept both the fact and theory of evolution than there are atheists that accept it.

Simply stated, it is unrealistic to be demanding trust of proven hoaksters and habitual liars. In order to remedy such a situation of mistrust, I suggest that those claiming to be scientists commence to give proper attention to what deserves to be given proper scientific attention. You know, to things such as the cogent reasoning that is the foundation of true science via acknowledging the strong probabilities which nature displays of an ID instead of repeatedly cancelling previous criteria and suddenly claiming an inability to reason properly. If indeed they continue in ridiculously ill concealed displays of arrogant denials than they deserve absolutely no credit nor any trust for any of the pro-atheistic- anti-ID claims that they make.

Now you are merely describing professional creationists. And once again you don't seem to realize that there is no scientific evidence for ID. That is why scientists laugh at the rather foolish idea. And of course that lack is due only to the fact that the few that support ID are both incompetent in their ID work and cowardly in their manner of presentation.

You really need to work on understanding what scientific evidence is. Here is a simple question for you:

What reasonable evidence would show ID to be wrong?
 
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Radrook

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Since there is no scientific evidence for ID it seems that he is not. The problem may be that you do not understand what scientific evidence is.



Then why do you constantly refer to abiogenesis. And your inability to understand a subject does not mean that it is highly unlikely. There have been those that have argued that life is highly likely based on the odds.



Here is a helpful hint, the way that you responded to him makes his supposed "strawman" arguments impossible to see. You keep claiming that but I can't see any in the post that you responded to. Put a little effort into your reply and break up your response as I have in this post.



And there you go using misleading terminology. A fish did not "turn into a human". Some of the descendants of specific fishes continued to evolved until we were the product of that. And that concept is well supported by the scientific evidence, meanwhile you have no scientific evidence at all for your beliefs.



Again, when you don't break up the argument no one can see the supposed "strawman" are you sure that you are using the term correctly?



It seems that the lesson did not take hold.



Analogies try to simplify arguments for educational purposes. Once again it appears that you did not learn the lesson.



He did not claim that, so now you are the one making a strawman argument. There are countless events with odds so high against them that according to creationist standards they are "impossible". We could take your birth as an example. All we need to do is to consider what the odds were of the one sperm cell that made you got through, and then take that back over as many generations as necessary to get as high of a number as needed, and that is looking at just one small chain of events that led to you. If we figure in all of the odds the odds against your birth will get infinitely large.



What "counterevidence"? I have yet to see a creationist that actually understands the nature of evidence.



There are no other theories out there that I know of. There are no other explanations that have not been thoroughly refuted. Once again, do you have any actual evidence that backs up your claims?



LOL!! There is no "atheist agenda". The theory of evolution is not an atheistic claim, it is a scientific one. I am willing to bet that there are far more Christians that accept both the fact and theory of evolution than there are atheists that accept it.



Now you are merely describing professional creationists. And once again you don't seem to realize that there is no scientific evidence for ID. That is why scientists laugh at the rather foolish idea. And of course that lack is due only to the fact that the few that support ID are both incompetent in their ID work and cowardly in their manner of presentation.

You really need to work on understanding what scientific evidence is. Here is a simple question for you:

What reasonable evidence would show ID to be wrong?

Since there is no scientific evidence for ID it seems that he is not. The problem may be that you do not understand what scientific evidence is.



There is NOTHING unscientific in reaching a conclusion via inductive reasoning. If indeed you believe that absurdity then you need to study the scientific method’s foundation which is based solidly on such inductive reasoning which leads to a deductive premise which leads to a conclusion. Didn't they teach you that in HS?





Then why do you constantly refer to abiogenesis. And your inability to understand a subject does not mean that it is highly unlikely. There have been those that have argued that life is highly likely based on the odds.



Because atheistic evolutionists depend on it and it is atheistic evolutionists to whom I AM SPEAKING.

Here is a helpful hint, the way that you responded to him makes his supposed "strawman" arguments impossible to see. You keep claiming that but I can't see any in the post that you responded to. Put a little effort into your reply and break up your response as I have in this post.



Unable to see again? Well, I can't help you there. However, I am almost sure that organizing my responses won't be of any help.


And there you go using misleading terminology. A fish did not "turn into a human". Some of the descendants of specific fishes continued to evolved until we were the product of that. And that concept is well supported by the scientific evidence, meanwhile you have no scientific evidence at all for your beliefs.



I did not say that a fish immediately turned into a man. That is strawman argument.

There is absolutely no need to go through the whole method of testing in a lab in order to draw a valid conclusion about a basic fact involving reality.

Your whole concept is flawed.


Again, when you don't break up the argument no one can see the supposed "strawman" are you sure that you are using the term correctly? It seems that the lesson did not take hold.

Since I easily aced my logic class I know what I am talking about. Do you?


Analogies try to simplify arguments for educational purposes. Once again it appears that you did not learn the lesson.

I am not criticizing his attempt at simplification. I am criticizing the nature of the analogy itself. They are too qualitatively different to be compared..

He did not claim that, so now you are the one making a strawman argument. There are countless events with odds so high against them that according to creationism standards they are "impossible". We could take your birth as an example. All we need to do is to consider what the odds were of the one sperm cell that made you got through, and then take that back over as many generations as necessary to get as high of a number as needed, and that is looking at just one small chain of events that led to you. If we figure in all of the odds the odds against your birth will get infinitely large.

The chain of events are qualitatively different. You are comparing apples and oranges.

What "counter evidence"? I have yet to see a creationist that actually understands the nature of evidence.There are no other theories out there that I know of. There are no other explanations that have not been thoroughly refuted. Once again, do you have any actual evidence that backs up your claims?

Now you are deploying the "I cain't see!"" INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE STRATEGY AGAIN.


LOL!! There is no "atheist agenda".

Tell that to the atheist educators which strive might and main to keep the ID explanation from being offered as a viable option in the public schools. Tell it to the atheist college faculties which threaten to fire any professor who dares to express his ID view to his students.

The theory of evolution is not an atheistic claim, it is a scientific one. I am willing to bet that there are far more Christians that accept both the fact and theory of evolution than there are atheists that accept it.

That’s a matter of opinion. Christians who say what? Ummm, well, those persons whom you claim are willing to call Jesus deluded aren't Christians at all. Jesus quoted the creation account and believed in it as was written. You can't go around disrespecting Jesus nd claiming to be followers and expect to be taken seriously.









Now you are merely describing professional creationists. And once again you don't seem to realize that there is no scientific evidence for ID. That is why scientists laugh at the rather foolish idea. And of course that lack is due only to the fact that the few that support ID are both incompetent in their ID work and cowardly in their manner of presentation.



What others have said or done in reference to an ID is really if no import to me.

You wish to divorce cogent reasoning from the scientific method and to me that only demonstrates that your notion of what the scientific method demands is seriously truncated. Ironically you you glibly discard the foundation of the scientific method and proceed to build a house of ideas without it in the same manner that you build your abiogenesis concepts. That is fallacious reasoning and fallacious reasoning ad and the scientific method are totally incompatible.





You really need to work on understanding what scientific evidence is. Here is a simple question for you:



Wrong! If I did not understand what scientific evidence involves I would have failed the courses I took which demanded that I understand what scientific evidence is.







What reasonable evidence would show ID to be wrong?



You need to convince me why my conclusion based on the observation of organization towards a purpose doesn't indicate mind. You also need to explain why it does always indicate mind to atheists otherwise. I haven't met an atheist yet who has directly addressed those issues. Instead they shift to other irrelevant subjects or simply chant that they can't see.



In short, there are just too many self contradictory ways in which you folks argue and too may ways in which you blatantly choose to ignore compelling facts by claiming inability to see.

Sorry but i fid your whole approach extremely unscientific because of it’s total disregard for the basis of the scientific method which is cogent reasoning. Furthermore, your constant misrepresentation of what other people say indicates what might be a habitual dishonesty or at least an inability or perhaps an unwillingness to understand simple statements. Or maybe an attempt to annoy by feigning incomprehension. Whatever it is it doesn’t encourage discussion.
 
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Speedwell

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Tell that to the atheist educators which strive might and main to keep the ID explanation from being offered as a viable option in the public schools. Tell it to the atheist college faculties which threaten to fire any professor who dares to express his ID view to his students.
Perhaps because the only ID proposal which they are aware of is that of the Discovery Institute which has been exposed as a Trojan Horse for the magic Bible God. And so it is not just an atheist agenda.



That’s a matter of opinion. Christians who say what? Ummm, well, those persons whom you claim are willing to call Jesus deluded aren't Christians at all. Jesus quoted the creation account and believed in it as was written. You can't go around disrespecting Jesus and claiming to be followers and expect to be taken seriously.
And what's this? One of the most popular arguments employed by proponents of the magic Bible God in favor of a literal interpretation of Genesis--the "You're calling Christ a liar" argument. Perhaps it's just a coincidence that we find it here.


You need to convince me why my conclusion based on the observation of organization towards a purpose doesn't indicate mind. You also need to explain why it does always indicate mind to atheists otherwise. I haven't met an atheist yet who has directly addressed those issues. Instead they shift to other irrelevant subjects or simply chant that they can't see.
Perhaps because you have not distinguished between organization towards function and organization towards purpose. Purpose requires mind. Function may not.
 
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Subduction Zone

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There is NOTHING unscientific in reaching a conclusion via inductive reasoning. If indeed you believe that absurdity then you need to study the scientific method’s foundation which is based solidly on such inductive reasoning which leads to a deductive premise which leads to a conclusion. Didn't they teach you that in HS?

Where did you get that crazy idea from? You seem to be dodging the fact that there is no scientific evidence for your beliefs. And you need to watch the personal attacks. So far you are the one that has demonstrated ignorance about this topic.



Because atheistic evolutionists depend on it and it is atheistic evolutionists to whom I AM SPEAKING.

But atheism is not dependent upon evolution. All that atheism relies on is the fact that reliable evidence for a god is lacking.

Unable to see again? Well, I can't help you there. However, I am almost sure that organizing my responses won't be of any help.

Now now, I am not the blind one here. Since you can't identify your supposed strawman arguments it seems that they do not exist.

I did not say that a fish immediately turned into a man. That is strawman argument.

Please, your quote is still there. You said this:

"It is the degree of that variation to the point of eventually turning a fish into a human that is being challenged."

You used improper terminology. I made no strawman argument. It seems that you do not know what is meant by that term.

There is absolutely no need to go through the whole method of testing in a lab in order to draw a valid conclusion about a basic fact involving reality.

Since your logic is extremely flawed I don't see how you are going to validate your claims.
Your whole concept is flawed.

Now you are simply projecting your flaws upon others.

Since I easily aced my logic class I know what I am talking about. Do you?

I really doubt that because you keep making very basic logical errors here. How many years ago was that? And where did you study it?[/quote]



I am not criticizing his attempt at simplification. I am criticizing the nature of the analogy itself. They are too qualitatively different to be compared..

Analogies are always qualitatively different. "To qualitatively different" is just a matter of opinion. You could have asked for a better analogy.

The chain of events are qualitatively different. You are comparing apples and oranges.[/quote

Hardly. You complain about others not being able to see and yet you seem to be keeping yourself willingly blind.


Now you are deploying the "I cain't see!"" INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE STRATEGY AGAIN.

Wrong again. Creationists of all stripes tend to have a very poor understanding of the concept of evidence. Instead of posting this nonsense why didn't you post some of this supposed evidence? You don't seem to realize the reason that when ID went on trial one of the big reasons it lost in Dover was because there was no valid evidence supporting the concept. Judges may not be experts on science, but they do tend to be experts on evidence.



Tell that to the atheist educators which strive might and main to keep the ID explanation from being offered as a viable option in the public schools. Tell it to the atheist college faculties which threaten to fire any professor who dares to express his ID view to his students.


Once again that is because your side has no evidence. That is why you lost the Dover trial.


That’s a matter of opinion. Christians who say what? Ummm, well, those persons whom you claim are willing to call Jesus deluded aren't Christians at all. Jesus quoted the creation account and believed in it as was written. You can't go around disrespecting Jesus nd claiming to be followers and expect to be taken seriously.

You are in no position to judge who is and who is not a Christian. And no one has gone around disrespecting Jesus in this matter. And Jesus used teaching tools all of the time. He never endorsed the creation story itself. Disagreeing with your errant view is not disrespecting Jesus.


What others have said or done in reference to an ID is really if no import to me.

Fine. Then let's see if you can support that failed idea at all.

You wish to divorce cogent reasoning from the scientific method and to me that only demonstrates that your notion of what the scientific method demands is seriously truncated. Ironically you you glibly discard the foundation of the scientific method and proceed to build a house of ideas without it in the same manner that you build your abiogenesis concepts. That is fallacious reasoning and fallacious reasoning ad and the scientific method are totally incompatible.

What? What makes you think that is what I want to do? You keep coming up with these false claims about me. Technically that is a breaking of the no personal attack rules. I made a correct statement about the so called scientists that support ID and rather than trying to show that I am wrong you launch a personal attack.


Wrong! If I did not understand what scientific evidence involves I would have failed the courses I took which demanded that I understand what scientific evidence is.

Which courses were those? And that was in the past. In this debate so far you have demonstrated an ignorance of the topic.




You need to convince me why my conclusion based on the observation of organization towards a purpose doesn't indicate mind. You also need to explain why it does always indicate mind to atheists otherwise. I haven't met an atheist yet who has directly addressed those issues. Instead they shift to other irrelevant subjects or simply chant that they can't see.

What makes you think that there is a purpose in the first place? As I said, you don't seem to understand what scientific evidence is at all. If you want to claim there is some purpose then the burden of proof for that lies upon you.

In short, there are just too many self contradictory ways in which you folks argue and too may ways in which you blatantly choose to ignore compelling facts by claiming inability to see.

Yet you have failed at showing one supposed contradiction. And if anyone is ignoring facts it seems to be you. What facts are ignored by those on the evolution side?
Sorry but i fid your whole approach extremely unscientific because of it’s total disregard for the basis of the scientific method which is cogent reasoning. Furthermore, your constant misrepresentation of what other people say indicates what might be a habitual dishonesty or at least an inability or perhaps an unwillingness to understand simple statements. Or maybe an attempt to annoy by feigning incomprehension. Whatever it is it doesn’t encourage discussion.

Please, don't pull my leg with that nonsense. You seem to think that others are misinterpreting you all of the time. You claim "strawman" when there is none. It is rather apparent that the flaws are within you. Perhaps you should attempt to narrow your focus on each of your replies. That way you can fully explain what you mean and there will be less room for misinterpretation.
 
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Radrook

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[Staff edit]

Explain THIS with something more substantial than the usual inability to see declarations::



Sorry but I don't buy your mindless universe explanation nor you sudden inability-to-see chanting replies as convincing.
 
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Subduction Zone

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[Staff edit]

Explain THIS with something more substantial than the usual inability to see declarations::[/quote]

Nope, not going to waste my time. if you cannot properly state what I said then there is no point in watching videos that were probably made by idiots. Try again with a response where you don't try to change what I said.

Sorry but I don't buy your mindless universe explanation nor you sudden inability-to-see chanting replies as convincing.

Now see these personal attacks are what will get people to ignore the nonsense that you post. Try again politely and properly if you want a discussion.
 
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MasonP

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Explain THIS with something more substantial than the usual inability to see declarations::
Just how would you go about showing that your God was responsible for any of that? you could just as easily have said it was the jolly green giant because it would have carried just as much weight.
How do you make the leap from DNA to a God? or the jolly green giant for that matter? does just saying it make it true for you?
 
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Radrook

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Just how would you go about showing that your God was responsible for any of that? you could just as easily have said it was the jolly green giant because it would have carried just as much weight.
How do you make the leap from DNA to a God? or the jolly green giant for that matter? does just saying it make it true for you?
STRAWMAN. As I said, I am making the leap to ID not to any specific being. LOL! This would be getting to be funny if it weren't so pathetic!

It isn't just the DNA you also have to glibly explain away the Fibonacci.

How do I make the leap? Easy. In the same way you make the leap with any other thing which you tag as evidence of mental activity towards a purpose.

BTW
If you have to ask that question then you are asking us to believe that for all practical purposes you are virtually brain dead.
 
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Subduction Zone

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STRAWMAN. As I said, I am making the leap to ID not to any specific being. LOL! This would be getting to be funny if it weren't so pathetic!

It isn't just the DNA you also have to glibly explain away the Fibonacci.

How do I make the leap? Easy. In the same way you make the leap with any other thing which you tag as evidence of mental activity towards a purpose.

BTW
If you have to ask that question then you are asking us to believe that for all practical purposes you are virtually brain dead.
Did you see the title of the videos that you linked for me? What three letter word was prominent in both of them?
 
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Speedwell

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How do I make the leap? Easy. In the same way you make the leap with any other thing which you tag as evidence of mental activity towards a purpose.
How do you know it's the same?
 
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Radrook

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How do you know it's the same?
Because the criteria for determining the activity of mind as it reveals itself remains the same,.
Arbitrarily changing that criteria involves the fallacy of inconsistency of policy.
If indeed you are changing that criteria, then you need to explain why.
Can you?
 
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Speedwell

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Because the criteria for determining the activity of mind as it reveals itself remains the same,.
Arbitrarily changing that criteria involves the fallacy of inconsistency of policy.
If indeed you are changing that criteria, then you need to explain why.
Can you?
I have.
But if I apply the same criteria in all situations, how am I being inconsistent?
You can't call me inconsistent just because I do not apply the same criteria as you do.
 
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mark kennedy

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Bible says the earth is about 6000 years old.
Evolution religion says earth is billions of years old and man came about 5 million years ago.

We know in the last 300 years, human population has grown exponential. If man came about millions of years ago, the population count would be an astronomical figure.

If archeologi$t$ keep finding dino$aur bones, how come there don't find billions and billions and billions of human bones?
The earth probably is billions of years old but life was created 6000 years ago. Most of the fossils are concentrated in certain areas but what you should realize is they are sifting through nature's trash can to deny God as Creator.
 
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HitchSlap

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The earth probably is billions of years old but life was created 6000 years ago. Most of the fossils are concentrated in certain areas but what you should realize is they are sifting through nature's trash can to deny God as Creator.
Of course, the mountains of evidence the world over, says otherwise.
 
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mark kennedy

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Of course, the mountains of evidence the world over, says otherwise.
Then there's good ole begging the question of proof. Not as popular as ad hominem but not as fatal either
 
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