Where are all of these "feminists" anyway?

[LOVEthroughINTELLECT]

It seems like there is always at least one thread on the first page of the Singles Ministry forum in which someone is complaining about and/or bashing "feminists" and "feminism". If one was gauging by this one forum alone he would conclude that "feminists" and "feminism" are as common in today's world as Pepsi and Coca-Cola.

Speaking of Pepsi and Coca-Cola, I can name all of the "feminists" I have known faster than a vending machine can dispense a bottle of my favorite soft drink.

It is interesting that whenever Christians criticize "feminists" and "feminism" they are almost always talking about women. Do these critics have the same opinion of men who are "feminists"? If not, then why the double standard? Or do they not know that "feminists" includes men?

Anyway, from both women and men I can name a grand total of one person I have known who even came close to outspokenly being a "feminist". And I have attended church, worked, gone to school, done volunteer work, etc. with many different people from many different backgrounds.

"Feminism" is not even on anybody's radar screen in most of my interactions with people. No "feminism". No anti-"feminism". People do not even appear to have ever thought about "feminism". The only place where I hear people thinking about "feminism" is on Christian internet discussion boards like this one. I almost never see "feminists" or "feminism" even in the mainstream media--one has to search to find such authors/speakers and such viewpoints.

I have almost nothing against "feminism". I do not even think about "feminists" or "feminism" much. But apparently a lot of other Christians have a lot against "feminism"--I hear about it almost every time I interact with Christians. So where are all of these "feminists" who give Christians so many opportunities to complain and attack?

 

[fishstix]

They occasionally show up on news talk shows or running for office.

 

[Echoespeak006]

They occasionally show up on news talk shows or running for office.

Or in the higher education classroom giving a biased point of view of certain situtations without offering the other side of the argument.

In all fairness though, the word feminism and the concept of feminism has changed so much between the 1800s and now, that you would need an awfully big brush to paint with to describe all the differing facets. For example, the ideologies of black, Christian feminists such as Ida B. Wells and Maria Stewart (whose concerns included working for the rights of all women in the 1800 and 1900s and combating racism) are very different from modern radical feminists such as Mary Daly who want an entire overhaul of the current world order.

However, I do suspect that individuals are referring to "feminists", they are envisioning the stereotypical man-hating, radical /Marxist women's rights activist.

 

[Aceybee]

I think it might be intimidating, and a difficult topic to work through all the related issues. Its easier not to.

 

[Judy02]

It seems like there is always at least one thread on the first page of the Singles Ministry forum in which someone is complaining about and/or bashing "feminists" and "feminism". If one was gauging by this one forum alone he would conclude that "feminists" and "feminism" are as common in today's world as Pepsi and Coca-Cola.

Speaking of Pepsi and Coca-Cola, I can name all of the "feminists" I have known faster than a vending machine can dispense a bottle of my favorite soft drink.

It is interesting that whenever Christians criticize "feminists" and "feminism" they are almost always talking about women. Do these critics have the same opinion of men who are "feminists"? If not, then why the double standard? Or do they not know that "feminists" includes men?

Anyway, from both women and men I can name a grand total of one person I have known who even came close to outspokenly being a "feminist". And I have attended church, worked, gone to school, done volunteer work, etc. with many different people from many different backgrounds.

"Feminism" is not even on anybody's radar screen in most of my interactions with people. No "feminism". No anti-"feminism". People do not even appear to have ever thought about "feminism". The only place where I hear people thinking about "feminism" is on Christian internet discussion boards like this one. I almost never see "feminists" or "feminism" even in the mainstream media--one has to search to find such authors/speakers and such viewpoints.

I have almost nothing against "feminism". I do not even think about "feminists" or "feminism" much. But apparently a lot of other Christians have a lot against "feminism"--I hear about it almost every time I interact with Christians. So where are all of these "feminists" who give Christians so many opportunities to complain and attack?

There isn't I don't think, a clear cut definition of a feminist anymore. The equality of men and women is pretty much a well established norm in the West today.

Changes in the West, also disputed and went again traditional interpretations of the scriptures as well established patterns of behaviour in the world and the Church at large. The 'Church' used to influence, particularly the country of the UK, a lot more than it does now, and it maintained a sexist agenda. Women not working, women being subject to male bosses etc.

Changes in the West, made a reexamination of the scriptures imperative, and displayed publicily the evils and wrongs of our society that had gone on for so long. Some Christians who still hold onto such interpretations, and are suspicious of any kind of change, might see some 'feminists' whoever they are, as threatening their biblical interpretations, so they like to polorise themselves against them, because these terrible people pointed out that 'the Church might not have always got everything right, and sometimes there may actually be sin existing amongst some Christians too!'

 

[Margim]

Feminism as a term generally applied means belief in equal rights in identity between men and women.

Negatively, it is used by those in positions of power to disparage women who try to 'step above their place'.

Postively, it refers to those who try to make attempts to step beyond a predominantly androcentric/patriachal worldview, whose ideas of equality are still biased towards males, even subtly.

Unhelpfully, feminism has been tied directly to affirmative action which I believe tends to isolate and antagonise males, which doesn't help for balance between the genders.

On the other hand, without affirmative action, old patterns, like men getting the better paid jobs, women being given inferior places in ministry, and men generally ruling the workplace/political scenes, will be perpetuated.

In one sense, I'd say that I'm a feminist. I strongly believe that skilled, talented women should be able to pursue their skills and talents to the same place an equally skilled and talented man should his. Society doesn't seem geared that way, and we should help it along.

Each time someone sets there mind towards equality of the genders - including offering alternative ways of reading texts, doing business, and ordering a household - they are, in effect, becoming feminist.

In this sense, I would like to think I'm a feminist of sorts, and proud of the fact. I'd hope that there would be far more than just me going this way as well...

 

[Irascible]

As a percentage, there aren't many truly devout militant feminists. However, they come up quite often because their ideology infects every corner of society including the church. For example, this antiquated fallacy lives on:

...women should be able to pursue their skills and talents to the same place an equally skilled... man should his. Society doesn't seem geared that way... (emphasis mine)

Women have every bit of opportunity that men do. It is their decisions and priorities that create the differences in outcome. You can refute that linked article with a parade of studies coming from leftist professors. However, common sense dictates that focusing on family and home comes at a price in the workplace.

I'm very glad that traditionally minded women desire to do that. The typical "high powered couple" that focus on career has a cold and barren house compared to the house where one spouse focuses on making it truly a home.

 

[Sketcher]

They're a lot more visible on college campuses. Since most of us on the Singles forum are college age, we're going to experience more feminist filth than most other people.

Besides, did you get a new job or something? I remember a few months ago when you were constantly complaining about feminists and feminism because of your coworkers.

 

[LOVEthroughINTELLECT]

...However, I do suspect that individuals are referring to "feminists", they are envisioning the stereotypical man-hating, radical /Marxist women's rights activist.

So where are they?

Keep in mind the context here: "Feminists" and "feminism" as discussed in the Singles Ministry forum at Christian Forums. In other words, "feminists" and "feminism" are complained about and attacked with respect to the dating scene.

Do I just live in a city and state that are free of "feminists" and "feminism"?

Where are there so many "feminists" that people can come here and frequently complain about and attack them when discussing the topics of dating and marriage?

 

[LOVEthroughINTELLECT]

...Besides, did you get a new job or something? I remember a few months ago when you were constantly complaining about feminists and feminism because of your coworkers.

Where in Christian Forums have I ever complained about "feminists", let alone "constantly"?

What I have complained about and criticized are the anti-"feminist" attitudes of fellow Christians.

 

[Echoespeak006]

So where are they?

Keep in mind the context here: "Feminists" and "feminism" as discussed in the Singles Ministry forum at Christian Forums. In other words, "feminists" and "feminism" are complained about and attacked with respect to the dating scene.

Do I just live in a city and state that is free of "feminists" and "feminism"?

Where are there so many "feminists" that people can come here and frequently complain about and attack them when discussing the topics of dating and marriage?

They are out there. As twisted said, higher education definitely has its fair share. I've seen and known quite a few while I was in college. Of course, sociology was also one of my majors which is traditionally on the more liberal end of the social sciences/humanities spectrum.

I've known several kinds of feminists - from your run of the mill, general equality type to radical sexual politics type to even some conservative right wing ones.

The reason I singled out the radical feminism is because they tend to be the prototype of what many people dislike about feminism.

In addition, once again, I think the meaning of feminism is so convuluted that first the dissenting parties are going to have agree first what they define as what is general agreed upon census about feminism AND THEN begin to debate the virtues and merits of it.

 

[Irascible]

They are out there. As twisted said, I've seen and known quite a few while I was in college.

The focus of the OP's question as well as your reply seems to be on defining and then finding the person we call feminist - specifically the maligned version that is brought up often at CF. The implication seems to be (not from you ES) that if we can't find the radical feminist around us in number, then the complaints against them are exaggerated. This line of reasoning misses the mark IMO.

It is the ideology of the radical feminist that surrounds us and gives rise to complaints. I don't know that I've ever seen a truly radical feminist post to CF. But it’s apparent to me that a huge percentage of both men and women are infected with at least one if not a fist full of radical feminist ideas.

I've read many times on this forum in recent weeks women who've said the equivalent "I won't accept that coming from a man.", as though the sex of a person validates or invalidates an idea. I've seen time and again male bashing that ranged from subtle to flagrant. And the victimology? Wow. The very existence of the radical feminist movement depends on women believing themselves to be helpless victims. That’s a very dominant theme on CF. But few recognize it because radical feminism has so infected the culture that it has become normal to think that way.

As for the radical feminists themselves? It’s obvious they need not exist in great numbers to infect the population with their ideas.

 

[LOVEthroughINTELLECT]

The focus of the OP's question as well as your reply seems to be on defining and then finding the person we call feminist - specifically the maligned version that is brought up often at CF. The implication seems to be (not from you ES) that if we can't find the radical feminist around us in number, then the complaints against them are exaggerated. This line of reasoning misses the mark IMO.

It is the ideology of the radical feminist that surrounds us and gives rise to complaints. I don't know that I've ever seen a truly radical feminist post to CF. But it’s apparent to me that a huge percentage of both men and women are infected with at least one if not a fist full of radical feminist ideas...

Okay, people are not complaining about "feminists". Instead, people are complaining about feminist ideology. But when Christians complain about feminist ideology they almost invariably are complaining about women. In other words, they are complaining about feminist ideology manifested in women.

Rephrasing my question: Where are all of these women who manifest feminist ideology?

...I've read many times on this forum in recent weeks women who've said the equivalent "I won't accept that coming from a man.", as though the sex of a person validates or invalidates an idea...

What you describe is sexism, not feminism.

...I've seen time and again male bashing that ranged from subtle to flagrant...

Again, that is sexism, not feminism.

Some feminist thought is sexist. And it has been my observation that anti-feminists highlight the relatively small part of feminism that is sexist and then say that based on that small part that feminism should be rejected wholesale.

...And the victimology? Wow. The very existence of the radical feminist movement depends on women believing themselves to be helpless victims. That’s a very dominant theme on CF. But few recognize it because radical feminism has so infected the culture that it has become normal to think that way...

Even if we assume that what you say is correct, is it a rational reason to dismiss "feminism" wholesale? That is exactly what most Christians I encounter seem to do.

...As for the radical feminists themselves? It’s obvious they need not exist in great numbers to infect the population with their ideas.

But where are there so many people who have been "infected" that Christians can come here and frequently complain about and attack them specifically with respect to life as a Christian single?

 

[LOVEthroughINTELLECT]

...Unhelpfully, feminism has been tied directly to affirmative action which I believe tends to isolate and antagonise males, which doesn't help for balance between the genders.

On the other hand, without affirmative action, old patterns, like men getting the better paid jobs, women being given inferior places in ministry, and men generally ruling the workplace/political scenes, will be perpetuated...

I see people thinking of affirmative action in one of two ways:


1.) A woman or a member of a minority who is less able to do the job than male and non-minority candidates is awarded a job/contract.

2.) Out of the candidates for a job/contract who are equally able to do the job the job/contract is awarded to a woman or a member of a minority.


Which view do you think is what is actually practiced? Do you think that the practice of 2.) isolates and antagonizes males?

 

[AveMaria]

Where are all these mythical feminists?

Well, I'm one. And I'm sure I'm not the only one on these forums. (And I know plenty in real life. Many of them are Christian or Jewish, incidentally).

Of course, there are a reasons why I typically avoid the Singles' forum - all the comments about women being fat, independent women being unattractive/wounded,and unkind remarks about "feminist filth".

In short, it's not a very welcoming place to some of us.

 

[LOVEthroughINTELLECT]

Where are all these mythical feminists?

Well, I'm one. And I'm sure I'm not the only one on these forums. (And I know plenty in real life. Many of them are Christian or Jewish, incidentally).

Of course, there are a reasons why I typically avoid the Singles' forum - all the comments about women being fat, independent women being unattractive/wounded,and unkind remarks about "feminist filth".

In short, it's not a very welcoming place to some of us.

I am sure that you do not keep track of my posts, but is there anything that I have ever said that you felt made the Singles Ministry forum or Christian Forums unwelcoming in the way that you describe? I ask this specifically with respect to women's concerns.

 

[Irascible]

Rephrasing my question: Where are all of these women who manifest feminist ideology? …where are there so many people who have been "infected" that Christians can come here and frequently complain about and attack them… ?

They’re all around. As I say, a majority of the people in the church subscribe to a few and often times the majority of the ideas in radical feminist ideology. You just have to read the threads to see it, if you can see it. Most don’t recognize it because, as I said before, it’s viewed as normal by a lot of people.

Again, that is sexism, not feminism. Some feminist thought is sexist.

Without its inherent sexism, radical feminism would not exist. They are inseparable. It is radical feminism that guys generally complain about.

Note the ever present modifiers of “radical”, “extremist” or “militant”. Our society as well as the church at large have no objections to the original goals of feminism. To believe otherwise is to focus on an irrelevant minority of Neanderthals. It is the corrupted extremist branch that dominates the headlines that is at issue. Whether they choose to believe it or not, the “reasonable feminists” (however you wish to define them) do not set feminist agenda today. It is the radicals that garner attention. Hence, few of us that take issue with radical feminism bother to put in modifiers like “militant”. “Radical feminist” and “feminist” have become one in the same in many circles.

 

[Irascible]

Where are all these mythical feminists? Well, I'm one. I typically avoid the Singles' forum... it's not a very welcoming place to some of us.

A natural consequence of the demographic I think.

-Singles tend to be younger. Young people tend to be more outspoken. (Yes, yes. There's a million old farts like me here too.)
-As people age and mature they tend to either relax their stringent views or at least become more soft spoken about them.
-And most importantly, these are single men we're talking about. Most don't have significant others to worry about. Women in healthy romantic relationships have tremendous influence on their guys. Some of the guys that might yell "Down with radical feminists!" become the same ones that speak softly "Yes dear." once they get attached. I can't say I blame them. I'll probably do the same.

 

[Echoespeak006]

Again, that is sexism, not feminism. Some feminist thought is sexist.

Without its inherent sexism, radical feminism would not exist. They are inseparable. It is radical feminism that guys generally complain about.

Note the ever present modifiers of “radical”, “extremist” or “militant”. Our society as well as the church at large have no objections to the original goals of feminism. To believe otherwise is to focus on an irrelevant minority of Neanderthals. It is the corrupted extremist branch that dominates the headlines that is at issue. Whether they choose to believe it or not, the “reasonable feminists” (however you wish to define them) do not set feminist agenda today. It is the radicals that garner attention. Hence, few of us that take issue with radical feminism bother to put in modifiers like “militant”. “Radical feminist” and “feminist” have become one in the same in many circles.

Basically, what I was trying to say, but better..lol.

 

[mina]

I don't think i'm a feminist. I think that God never puts down women for being women and Jesus treated women rather nicely in the Bible. I think women and men need to respect one another. I think there are different but equally important "roles" for men and women. I don't like having to have a career and having to work at my career all the time. However, I am thankful for the women who risked a lot to be able to vote. I'm thankful that I'm able to choose a lot of things that I might not be able to have done.I like wearing pants in public. But at the same time I want to choose marriage and motherhood, but am not able to make that choice currently. What I hate is people assuming that I am against marriage or traditional roles b/c I'm a 27 year old unmarried woman with an education and career.

I don't think God ever intended for men and women to bash one another or try to be better than each other or trample on each other or lord over each other. It unfortunately happened because sin distorts. I think we need each other. Which makes things incredibily hard for some singles. JMO