When Will Christ Return?

zeke37 said:

the worlds a big place, and nations will exist in the Mill
he might be in "power" but things will have changed so much then,
that power will not be the same thing as it is today.

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What kind of changes?


That power will not be the same as today?.. Explain more please

dfw69 said:

Doubt it will offend the Jews ... They are like us... And hold to their faith...and god will deliver his promises to them

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He already did, God gave them (and us) his one and only Son, the Messiah, Jesus. There's no other way to be friends with God. All the promises of the OT are fulfilled in Jesus: no one else!

dfw69 said:

Eclipsenow... Jesus is going to end world government ... It's the end of the age... Or can there be world governments and the kingdom of Christ on earth?..... If Jesus came now... will Obama still be in office and Christ reign in Israel ?..

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????

Maybe you have too small a view of what exactly is going to happen when Jesus returns. No, there will be NO world governments left when the Lord returns!

Covenant Amils see 'Judgement Day' as this one, huge, inescapable and instantaneous day. From the explicitly clear statements in the New Testament about the Last Day we know that when Jesus returns, the dead are raised, all is revealed and judged, and sin, Satan, and death are done away with. Heaven meets earth in a glorious new reality where we will exist in perfect harmony with our Lord for all eternity! There's just no room for a "half eternal, half mortal" merely geopolitical reign of Jesus on earth. The language around the Lord's return is too dramatic and final for that.

1: BOTH BELIEVERS AND UNBELIEVERS ARE RAISED TOGETHER ON THE LAST DAY AND THEN SAVED OR JUDGED!
(not 1000 years apart)
John 6:39 = Christians are raised for eternal life on the LAST DAY. Not 1007 years before the last day: not before some 7 year 'tribulation' and 1000 year "Millennium". We are raised on THE LAST DAY!
John 11:24 = Martha knows Lazarus will rise on the LAST DAY
John 12:48 = Jesus Judges on the LAST DAY
John 5:28 = All raised together for either salvation or judgement
Luke 17:24-28 = Jesus return will be OBVIOUS and inescapable: like lightning across the sky. Will be like days of Noah, when they were either taken and saved or left behind and DESTROYED.
Or like Lot, who were either saved or DESTROYED. In none of these examples were those 'Left Behind' able to continue their lives for 7 years! They were judged immediately. Noah didn't enter the ark and then 1000 years passed before the flood!
Matt 25:31-46 = the sorting of the sheep and the goats.
Matt 13:24-29 = weeds judged and burned and wheat saved.
1 Thess 4:13-17 = Christians are raised and saved forever.
1 Thess 5 = the ungodly are immediately judged!
2 Tim 4:1 = judge the living and the dead
Acts 17:31 = Jesus resurrection is PROOF that He will be the judge. (Because, I take it, resurrection demonstrates God's power over death and also precedes the final judgement!)
Psalm 2: his judgement will be sudden and will destroy all God's enemies
Matt: 16:27 = "For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done."


2. SATAN AND HIS MINIONS ALSO JUDGED
Rev 20:10 = at the end of this age the Devil is destroyed.
(Millennium = Symobolic of the perfect amount of time between the gospel events of Jesus incarnation and Jesus return as judge).

3. DEATH BANISHED, ETERNITY USHERED IN
As we have already seen above we are raised and then Judged to be innocent in Christ or damned forever. Then we are eternal beings!
Mark 10:30 = "in the age to come eternal life."
1 Cor 15:26 = "The last enemy to be destroyed is death".

4. DAY OF LORD = NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH
2 Peter 3:10-13 = DAY OF LORD = like a thief = "a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells."

5. THIS *REALLY* MESSES WITH MILLENNIAL IDEAS - THERE IS NO NEED OF MARRIAGE OR BABIES!
Luke 20:35: "But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection of the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage,"
The Millennium cannot have both immortal resurrected Christians living alongside mortal sinners because:
* access to the age to come is via resurrection
* even if we 'smuggled them in' (so to speak) after a generation there would be no more mortals because there are no babies!

6. MORTAL BEINGS CANNOT ENTER THE 'ARRIVED' KINGDOM OF GOD!
(This is in contrast to the 'current' kingdom of God, the church, which is a spiritual kingdom 'not of this world'. When the kingdom actually arrives physically, mortality is put behind us).
1 Corinthians 15
"50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
* This means resurrection = changed into our immortal bodies = Death conquered at the SAME TIME as the Lord's return.

So what to do with the Millennium, and indeed, the whole book of Revelation?

My first recommendation would be Revelation Unwrapped by John Richardson. This is available from bookdepository.co.uk quite cheap, and is a short, clear book taking the Symbolist approach to Revelation. That is, unlike modern 'futurists', Revelation is full of biblical symbols and is not dependent on modern newspaper headlines and geopolitics to understand. It's all about the gospel, and is a cracker of a sermon encouraging all Christians in all ages that have ever had to live under suffering.

The next book I recommend is 'Apocalypse Now and then' by Dr Paul Barnett, which is a bit partial preterist and a bit Symbolist.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Apocalypse-now-then-reading-Revelation/dp/0949108421
Paul Barnett sees some things like the beasts of Revelation as being historical Roman Emperors, but again I'm a little reluctant to believe the book is only understandable with a Phd in History! But he is very helpful in most chapters and does interpret a lot of the bible's Symbolism.

Or if you don't have the time buy and read these books, try the free sermons at Sydney Anglicans. The following link has sermons listed by book of the bible. Scan down to the end and download the sermons. You'll be amazed at the consistency of reading Revelation with the REST of the New Testament!
Synod 2012 Bible Study Four | Audio | Sydneyanglicans.net

Or if you REALLY want to go deep, check out the free audio lectures by Dr Kim Riddlebarger. There's probably about 30 hours of material entitled "Amillennialism 101" on the down the right hand column here.
Riddleblog - The Latest Post

dfw69 said:

What kind of changes?


That power will not be the same as today?.. Explain more please

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today, Obama is considered the leader of the free world.
that won't be the case in the Mill.

I'm not amil... So how was I suppose to know how they see the end?

zeke37 said:

today, Obama is considered the leader of the free world.
that won't be the case in the Mill.

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I got my answer...

Amils spiritualize a lot of scripture... And so I was wondering now how amils see the new Jerusalem ...is it a real city reaching space (1500 miles up)... Or do y'all see this as a spiritual thing ?

If you pay as much attention to the world as you do Revelation, you can get a better idea of when the end times will come. This is my theory:

The year 2025 is a big year for mankind. Futurists gather that in that year, we will be in the preliminaries of a type 1 civilization.

A type 1 civilization is when we move away from fossil fuels, taking full advantage of solar and nuclear energy. We will learn how to control the weather, humans will carry universal devices that are their ID, cell phone, computer, and so on. Money will no longer be backed by gold, it will be a full on credit system.

This is the Earth of 2075 AD, and we will see it start to form in 2025 AD.

Between all this, there will be a time when governments will have to form together. There are seven heads on the Beast of the Earth:

1. North America
2. South America
3. Africa
4. Australia
5. North Asia
6. Europe
7. The Orient

The prime governments in these locations will converge, and the harlot of Babylon will ride this beast, whoever it may be

The world is doomed to end before 2075AD. I know in my heart, and by the Apocalypse of John, that we are dawning towards the end times.

dfw69 said:

Amils spiritualize a lot of scripture... And so I was wondering now how amils see the new Jerusalem ...is it a real city reaching space (1500 miles up)... Or do y'all see this as a spiritual thing ?

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To read pretty much anything from Revelation 'literally' is to misread it. Revelation is Apocalyptic Symbolism, and the images are theological keys, not specific, literal predictions. It's a sermon, not a timetable, and these images are general sermon illustrations and theological points, not specific predictions.

eclipsenow said:

To read pretty much anything from Revelation 'literally' is to misread it. Revelation is Apocalyptic Symbolism, and the images are theological keys, not specific, literal predictions. It's a sermon, not a timetable, and these images are general sermon illustrtions and theological points, not specific predictions.

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Sooo what is the city of god coming down from heaven 1500 miles up again?

It is not for us to know the time and dates that Christ has set by his own authority. Acts 1:7

eclipsenow said:

He already did, God gave them (and us) his one and only Son, the Messiah, Jesus. There's no other way to be friends with God. All the promises of the OT are fulfilled in Jesus: no one else!

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True... But there is more for the Jews when they accept Jesus in the end times...

dfw69 said:

Sooo what is the city of god coming down from heaven 1500 miles up again?

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City of God (which has all kinds of great theological imagery in and of itself) coming down to dwell with mankind? Are you kidding me? It represents the reverse of the curse, our Father returning to live with us again, the Trinity making his dwelling with mankind permanently in a better-than Edenic state.

It's in the new universe anyway. The symbols describe the reality of this universe breaking away to eternity: something fundamental has to change in the laws of physics to deal with entropy. But even though Revelation loosely describes the reality that God will renovate this entire universe, it does so in poetic symbolism.

21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.


(Sea = chaos, the chaos of pre-creation that God hovered over before he separated out the land from the sea).

The city is like a bride ready for us, the husband.

Yet we are the bride of Christ.

See how the imagery is constantly mixing it up, changing it around, depending on the importance of the moment?

eclipsenow said in post 903:

BOTH BELIEVERS AND UNBELIEVERS ARE RAISED TOGETHER ON THE LAST DAY AND THEN SAVED OR JUDGED!
(not 1000 years apart)

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When Jesus returns, only the church will be bodily resurrected and finally-judged (1 Cor. 15:21-23, Rev. 20:5, Ps. 50:3-5, cf. Mk. 13:27; Mt. 25:19-30, 2 Cor. 5:10, Lk. 12:45-48). The obedient part of the bodily resurrected church (including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist) will then reign on the earth with the returned Jesus for a thousand years (Rev. 19:7-20:6, 5:10, 2:26-29, Ps. 66:3-4, 72:8-11, Zech 14:3-21). Only sometime after the thousand years and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Rev. 20:7-10, Ezek. chs. 38-39) will the rest of the dead be bodily resurrected (Rev. 20:5) and finally-judged at the great white throne judgment (Rev. 20:11-15).

eclipsenow said in post 903:

John 6:39 = Christians are raised for eternal life on the LAST DAY. Not 1007 years before the last day: not before some 7 year 'tribulation' and 1000 year "Millennium".

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In Jn. 6:39-40 and Jn. 12:48, the original Greek word translated as the last "day" (hemera, G2250) doesn't have to mean the last 24-hour day, but can be used figuratively to refer to a much longer period of time (for example, see the Greek of 2 Cor. 6:2, 2 Pet. 3:8, and Jn. 8:56). Jn. 6:39-48 and Jn. 12:48 will occur in the last period of time of this present earth, but they won't occur on the same 24-hour day (Rev. 20:5).

Similarly, the last "days" began in the first century AD with Jesus' first coming (Hebrews 1:2) and the Holy Spirit's pouring out at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:16-17). The last days are the last three roughly thousand-year "days" (2 Peter 3:8) of the seven roughly thousand-year "days" from the creation of Adam in roughly 4,000 BC to the future end of the present earth and the creation of the new earth (Revelation 21:1) in roughly 3,000 AD. So the last days are the roughly 3,000 years from Jesus' first coming to sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), which will be part of the last roughly thousand-year "day".

eclipsenow said in post 903:

Luke 17:24-28 = Jesus return will be OBVIOUS and inescapable: like lightning across the sky. Will be like days of Noah, when they were either taken and saved or left behind and DESTROYED.

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Lk. 17:27,29, Mt. 24:39 doesn't mean all unsaved people will be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming, for Lk. 17:34-36, Mt. 24:40-41 goes on to show some unsaved people will be left alive at that time (Zech. 14:16-19). So in Lk. 17:26-30, Mt. 24:37-39, the point of the comparison isn't that all unsaved people will be killed at the 2nd coming, but that none of them will be expecting to be killed, but will be eating & drinking without worry right up to the day of the 2nd coming.

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Lk. 17:34-36, Mt. 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zech. 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Rev. 2:26-29, 5:10, 20:4-6, Ps. 2, 66:3, 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium is over into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Rev. 20:7-10, Ezek. chs. 38-39).

The 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Mt. 24:37) & "the days of Lot" (Lk. 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the temporal (i.e. not the eternal) judgment of the Flood, & Lot went out from Sodom before its temporal (i.e. not its eternal) judgment, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (Mt. 24:30-31, 2 Thes. 2:1, 1 Thes. 4:17, Rev. 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming temporal (i.e. not the eternal) judgment of the unsaved world alive at that time (Rev. 19:11-20:3, Lk. 17:26-30, Mt. 24:37-39).

eclipsenow said in post 903:

Matt 25:31-46 = the sorting of the sheep and the goats.

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Mt. 25:31 doesn't mean that Mt. 25:32-46 (just as 2 Pet. 3:10a doesn't mean that 2 Pet. 3:10b) will happen immediately at Jesus' 2nd coming, only that it will happen sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming, at the great white throne judgment (Rev. 20:11-15), after the future millennium & subsequent events are over (Rev. 20:7-15). Mt. 25:32-46 refers to the "nations" being judged by their works at the great white throne judgment (Rev. 20:12-13), whereas at the 2nd coming, Jesus will judge only those in the church (Ps. 50:3-5, cf. Mk. 13:27; Mt. 25:19-30). Also, Mt. 25:41,46 refers to the unsaved being sent (at the time of Mt. 25:41,46) into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire at the great white throne judgment (Rev. 20:15), whereas at the 2nd coming, only the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) & his False Prophet will be cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 19:20).

The saved "sheep" at the sheep/goat judgment would include those who became believers during the millennium (Isa. 66:19-21). Mt. 25:34 refers to obedient believers inheriting the kingdom of the Father on the new earth in New Jerusalem, the Father's house (Rev. 21:1-7, Jn. 14:2).

eclipsenow said in post 903:

Matt 13:24-29 = weeds judged and burned and wheat saved.

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Regarding the weeds/tares, Mt. 13:38's good seed are the elect, and the weeds/tares are the nonelect, who can't believe in Jesus (Jn. 8:42-47). Mt. 13:40-42 refers to the great white throne judgment (Rev. 20:11-14), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Rev. 20:7-10), when the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:15). Mt. 13:43's kingdom of the Father is after the great white throne judgment, when a new earth will be created and God the Father will descend from heaven in New Jerusalem to live with the church on the new earth (Rev. 21:1-3).

eclipsenow said in post 903:

1 Thess 5 = the ungodly are immediately judged!

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Are you referring to 1 Thes. 5:3? If so, it doesn't require that the eternal judgment of the unsaved (Rev. 20:11-15) will occur immediately at Jesus' second coming.

1 Thes. 5:3 could include reference to when, near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24, at the death of the two witnesses, the unsaved world will rejoice and make merry, because it will then be free from the tormenting plagues from the two witnesses (Rev. 11:10,6). But little will the unsaved world realize that the plagues of the seven vials of God's (temporal) judgment and wrath will then be poured out upon it (Rev. 16), and then Jesus will return and bring the second-coming (yet still temporal) judgment and wrath of God (Rev. 19:11 to 20:3). Between the temporal judgment and wrath of Rev. 19:11 to 20:3 and the eternal judgment and wrath of Rev. 20:11-15 will occur the millennium and subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Rev. 20:4-10, Ezek. chapters 38-39).

eclipsenow said in post 903:

2 Tim 4:1 = judge the living and the dead

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2 Timothy 4:1 can include both of the future final-judgments, for Jesus will finally-judge only the church immediately at his future appearing (second coming) (Psalms 50:3-5, compare Mark 13:27), whereas the unsaved will not be finally-judged until the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), which can be thought of as the third and final stage of the physical aspect of Jesus' kingdom, the first stage being Jesus' post-second coming thousand-year reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:3-21), and the second stage being after the thousand years are over, when the Gog/Magog rebellion and its defeat will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

eclipsenow said in post 903:

Psalm 2: his judgement will be sudden and will destroy all God's enemies

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Are you referring to Psalms 2:9? If so, just as when we figuratively "break" a horse, we don't destroy it, but force it to submit to us, so Ps. 2:9 doesn't mean that the unsaved people left alive at Jesus' second coming (Mt. 24:39b-40) will be destroyed by him. Instead, it refers to them figuratively being "broken" by him so that they will submit to his worldwide reign during the millennium (Ps. 2:10-12, 72:8-11, 66:3, Zech. 14:9,16-19). That's why other verses say that Jesus and the bodily resurrected church will "rule" the nations with a rod of iron (Rev. 19:15, 2:26-29, 5:10, 20:4-6), not kill them. And why after the millennium there will still be nations (ethnos) alive on the earth who will be deceived by Satan into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Rev. 20:7-10, Ezek. chs. 38-39).

Psalms 2:1-3 refers to this time of the Gog/Magog rebellion (Rev. 20:7-10, Ezek. chs. 38-39). For it will be during the future millennium that the kings of the earth will have been placed under the bands/cords (Ps. 2:3), that is, the physical rule, of the returned Jesus (Ps. 2:6, 72:8-11, 66:3).

eclipsenow said in post 903:

Matt: 16:27 = "For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done."

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Matt. 16:27 doesn't require that the final judgment of every man will occur immediately at Jesus' second coming. All it requires is that every man will be judged by him sometime subsequent to his second coming.

eclipsenow said in post 903:

Mark 10:30 = "in the age to come eternal life."

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Mark 10:30 does not mean that obedient believers will not be in immortal bodies during the current age's final stage, that is, the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), just as Mark 10:30 does not mean that believers do not have eternal life in a spiritual sense currently (1 John 5:13).

eclipsenow said in post 903:

1 Cor 15:26 = "The last enemy to be destroyed is death".

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1 Cor. 15:26 refers to when the first death will be cast into the second death, the lake of fire, at the great white throne judgment (Rev. 20:11-15). The resurrection at the great white throne judgment is the resurrection at "the end" (1 Cor. 15:24), and will include everyone who wasn't part of the first resurrection (Rev. 20:5), the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' second coming (1 Cor. 15:23, Rev. 19:7-20:6).

eclipsenow said in post 903:

2 Peter 3:10-13 = DAY OF LORD = like a thief = "a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells."

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Regarding 2 Peter 3:10-13, in the day of the Lord will occur the destruction of heaven (the first heaven: the sky, the atmosphere) and the earth (the surface of the earth) at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11, Revelation 21:1). And this will be followed by the creation of a new atmosphere and surface for the earth (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1) onto which New Jerusalem, the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3), will descend from the third heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). But the day of the Lord will not immediately bring the destruction of earth's atmosphere and surface, for the day of the Lord will begin at Jesus' second coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8) as a thief (2 Peter 3:10a, Revelation 16:15). And after his second coming, he will establish his kingdom physically on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for a thousand years (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21).

And after the thousand years, the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). And after its defeat at least seven more years will occur (Ezekiel 39:9b) before the earth's atmosphere and surface are destroyed at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11). All these events, from Jesus' second coming to the great white throne judgment, will be part of the day of the Lord, for it is not a 24-hour day, but to God is like a thousand-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8).

eclipsenow said in post 903:

Luke 20:35: "But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection of the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage,"

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Luke 20:35 doesn't mean that there won't be mortal, married, unresurrected, unsaved people in the current age's final stage, i.e. the future millennium (e.g. Zech. 14:16-19).

eclipsenow said in post 903:

1 Corinthians 15
"50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

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1 Cor. 15:50 refers to people in mortal/corruptible flesh and blood bodies, as opposed to people in immortal/incorruptible, resurrection "flesh and bone" bodies (possibly without blood as we know it) like Jesus was resurrected into (Lk. 24:39, 1 Cor. 15:21-23,51-53, Philip. 3:21, Rom. 8:23-25). 1 Cor. 15:50 means that people in mortal/corruptible flesh and blood bodies won't inherit the eternal (as opposed to the millennial) aspect of the kingdom of God, which will be on the new earth in the descended New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:1-22:15) after the future millennium and subsequent events are over (Rev. 20:7-22:15). For the elect Jews who won't become believers until Jesus' second coming (Rom. 11:25-29, Zech. 12:10-14) could inherit the millennial kingdom (Zech. 14:5-21, Mt. 19:28, Lk. 22:30) in their mortal bodies. For the resurrection/changing of believers into immortal bodies (1 Cor. 15:21-23,51-53) could be experienced only by those who had become believers before the second coming.

Also, the people left alive at the second coming (Mt. 24:39b-40) who won't get saved at that time will also enter the millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies, but without inheriting it, for they will be its forced subjects (Zech. 14:16-19, Ps. 66:3), ruled over with a rod of iron by Jesus and the church (Rev. 2:26-29, Rev. 5:10, Rev. 20:4-6, Ps. 2).

Also, regarding the third-heaven aspect of the kingdom, just as people on the earth can be brought into someone's house and stay there for awhile without inheriting that house, so people in their mortal bodies can be taken up to the third heaven and stay there for awhile without inheriting the third heaven. For at the time of Rev. 11:11-12, the two witnesses will be in resuscitated mortal bodies (like, for example, the resuscitated mortal bodies of Lazarus and Tabitha: Jn. 11:43-44, Acts 9:36-40). For the resurrection of believers into immortal bodies won't happen until Jesus' second coming (1 Cor. 15:21-23,52-53, 1 Thes. 4:15-16, Rev. 19:7-20:6), which won't happen until after the entire future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24 is over (Mt. 24:29-31, Rev. 19:7-20:6). Also, Rev. 11:12 doesn't say that when the two witnesses will ascend "up" to the third heaven in their mortal bodies they will inherit the third heaven, just as when Paul says he at one point during his lifetime could have been taken to the third heaven in his mortal body (2 Cor. 12:2-7), he doesn't say that he inherited the third heaven, and just as when Enoch and Elijah were taken to the third heaven in their mortal bodies (Heb. 11:5, 2 Kin. 2:11), it doesn't say that they inherited the third heaven.

eclipsenow said in post 903:

Revelation is full of biblical symbols and is not dependent on modern newspaper headlines and geopolitics to understand.

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What Biblical symbols are you referring to?

Also, futurism considers today's headlines regarding such things as geopolitics and technology, in order to help believers consider different ways for how exactly the never-fulfilled, yet still understandable, and almost entirely literal, highly-detailed prophecies in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 might be fulfilled in our future. For example, Christians at any time in the past could understand that Revelation 6:4-8 refers to a horrible, literal war which will start the tribulation, and which, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, will end up killing a fourth of the world. They could understand this without having to know, for example, what nation will start the war, or what weapons will be employed in the war. All futurism does is consider these things.

For another example, Christians at any time in the past could understand that Revelation 13:14-15 refers to a literal image (Greek: "eikon", something made in the likeness) of the Antichrist, which will appear to be alive, which will speak, and which people will have to worship or be killed. Christians in the past could understand this without having to know, for example, whether the image will be two-dimensional or three-dimensional (or both), or what it will be made of, or how it will be made to speak and appear to be alive. All futurism does is consider these things.

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eclipsenow said in post 892:

It's all an exercise in justifying what virtually no Revelation scholar I'm aware of thinks, that Revelation is literal. It's not.

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How has it been shown not to be almost entirely literal? It has been shown that Revelation is almost entirely literal because it is unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning that it should not be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it is written: chronologically and almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (for example, Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12). And Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (for example, Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (for example, Daniel 7:4-7,17). Just as Jesus' second coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the millennium in Revelation 20 will be literal, and will begin after Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11). After that, the events of Revelation 20:7 to 22:5 will occur literally.

eclipsenow said in post 892:

For my part, I'm resting on the credentials of Dr Paul Barnett's historical and theological career, and his commentary on Revelations that says there were more than seven churches across Asia Minor at the time.

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How many more? And in what cities were they located?

eclipsenow said in post 892:

It's just nonsense . . .

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How has the statement that Revelation is almost entirely literal been shown to be nonsense?

eclipsenow said in post 892:

I've addressed your 'arguments' in that paragraph repeatedly for the last year, showing how just because Revelation contains the gospel promise of Jesus eventual return does NOT make it a literal timetable of the last decades of human history.

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How have Revelation chapters 6-22 been shown to not be a timetable? It has been shown that they are a timetable, insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the second through sixth seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the sixth seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the seventh seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's seven trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first six trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the seventh trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the seventh trumpet's heavenly temple opening will come the seven plagues of the seven vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the seven vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the seventh vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the unsaved world (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3), and he will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

eclipsenow said in post 892:

It's just a fact that 7 is symbolic and that John is using most of the numbers in his book symbolically.

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Regarding "7 is symbolic", any symbolic uses of seven in the Bible do not require that all uses of seven in Revelation or elsewhere in the Bible are symbolic. For example, just as the seven deacons in Acts 6:3-6 were literally seven people, so the seven churches in Revelation 1:11 were literally seven churches.

eclipsenow said in post 892:

It's just a fact that 7 is symbolic and that John is using most of the numbers in his book symbolically.

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Regarding "John is using most of the numbers in his book symbolically", how has that been shown? Why can't all the numbers he uses be literal?

eclipsenow said in post 892:

Anyway, the few possible literal uses of 1000 you tossed at me ignore the vast majority of times 1000 is most definitely symbolic.

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How has that been shown for the vast majority of times? (That is, you might consider the vast majority to be symbolic when in fact the vast majority could be literal.)

eclipsenow said in post 892:

(But your verses many not be evidence of literal uses of 1000, as I didn't have time to check all your 'quotes' and have found you to be unreliable when quoting in the past).

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Can you give some examples of what you considered to be unreliable references in the past?

eclipsenow said in post 892:

John is obviously writing in the apocalyptic genre which is not literal (if you bothered to read any scholars you would know this!) and so therefore...

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Regarding "the apocalyptic genre", Revelation itself can be almost entirely literal because, as scripture, it's not bound by any man-made ideas regarding any made-made categories for writings in general. Revelation, like other scripture, was written by the inspiration of God (2 Timothy 3:16), meaning that it was not written by the will of man, but written by a holy man as he was moved by the Holy Spirit to write it (compare 2 Peter 1:21), so that the words of Revelation are what the Holy Spirit himself spoke (compare Acts 1:16, Acts 28:25b). And nothing about these words requires that Revelation can't be almost entirely literal.

Regarding the scholars you're referring to, you will need to provide in this thread quotes (or paraphrases in your own words) of their specific arguments based on the scriptures themselves (compare Isaiah 8:20b), and not on any man-made ideas (compare 1 Corinthians 1:20).

eclipsenow said in post 892:

The style of symbolism with Jesus having 7 horns and 7 eyes is symbolic, right?

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Yes, but parts of Revelation 5:6 are literal (God's throne in heaven, the four beasts, the twenty-four elders, Jesus having been slain, the seven Spirits of God, the earth) and parts of Revelation 5:6 are symbolic (Jesus being a lamb, his having seven horns, his having seven eyes).

Also, in Revelation 5:6, while the horns and eyes are symbolic, they can represent literal things, so that the number seven can refer literally to seven things. The seven horns of the Jesus lamb in Revelation 5:6 could represent Jesus holding literally seven positions of power at the same time (compare Jesus wearing many crowns at the same time in Revelation 19:12). These seven positions of power could be, for example, Jesus' power as the Son of God (Revelation 2:18), his power as the Word of God (Revelation 19:13), his power as the King of kings (Revelation 19:16), his power as the Lord of lords (Revelation 19:16), his power as High Priest (Hebrews 3:1), his power as the King of Israel (John 12:13), and his power as the Lamb of God (John 1:29).

And Revelation 5:6 tells us what the seven eyes of the Jesus lamb represent: "the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth". These can literally be seven Spirits of God, which could be: the Spirit of the Lord, the Spirit of wisdom, the Spirit of understanding, the Spirit of counsel, the Spirit of might, the Spirit of knowledge, and the Spirit of the fear of the Lord (Isaiah 11:2).

dfw69 said in post 910:

Sooo what is the city of god coming down from heaven 1500 miles up again?

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New Jerusalem is a literal city 1,500 miles cubed (Rev. 21:16), with literal pearly gates and literal streets of gold (Rev. 21:21). It's God the Father's house in the third heaven (Rev. 21:2-3, cf. 2 Cor. 12:2b,4, Rev. 2:7b, 22:2,14), in which house Jesus left to prepare a place for the church (Jn. 14:2). All those in the church, both Jews and Gentiles, have figuratively come to New Jerusalem by coming under the New Covenant (Heb. 12:22-24, Gal. 4:24-26), which is made only with Israel (Jer. 31:31-34), and which only the church comes under by believing in Jesus' New Covenant death on the Cross for our sins (Mt. 26:28, 1 Cor. 11:25, 2 Cor. 3:6, Heb. 9:15), the very heart of the gospel (1 Cor. 15:1-4). The church looks for Jesus' return from heaven (Philip. 3:20) and his setting up of his millennial kingdom on the earth with the bodily resurrected church (Rev. 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29). New Jerusalem won't descend from the third heaven to the earth until after a new earth (i.e. a new surface of the earth) has been created (Rev. 21:1-4), sometime after the millennium and subsequent events are over (Rev. 20:7-15). The church will physically live and reign in New Jerusalem with God the Father and Jesus on the new earth (Rev. 21:1-22:5).

Rev. 21:2,9-10 means that the physical structure of the literal city of New Jerusalem is a picture of the church. Something can be literal and at the same time symbolically picture something else. For example, Mt. 21:19's fig tree was literal and at the same time its being without fruit symbolically pictured unbelieving Israel being without fruit (Mt. 21:43).

Just as New Jerusalem's literal wall foundations have the names of the twelve apostles on them (Rev. 21:14), so the church's foundation is the apostles (Eph. 2:20). And just as New Jerusalem's literal pearly gates have the names of Israel's twelve tribes on them (Rev. 21:12,21), so the church consists of Israel's 12 tribes.

For all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Rom. 11:1, Acts 4:36), & all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Rom. 11:17,24, Eph. 2:12,19, Gal. 3:29), & so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezek. 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Rev. 21:9,12). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Mt. 26:28, 1 Cor. 11:25, 2 Cor. 3:6, Heb. 9:15), & the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jer. 31:31-34, Jn. 4:22b). Jn. 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Cor. 12:13, Eph. 4:4-6, Rev. 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray & ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, & he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Mt. 21:22), without any wavering (cf. Jas. 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Rom. 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Rom. 2:29, Philip. 3:3, Col. 2:11-13).

IvinViljoen said in post 911:

It is not for us to know the time and dates that Christ has set by his own authority. Acts 1:7

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Acts 1:7 could mean that it was not for the apostles to know at that time the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' second coming. Acts 1:7 does not require that no believers will ever come to know the date of the second coming before it happens. Similarly, Matthew 24:36,42,44 does not require that.

For Matthew 24:36,42,44 also refers to Jesus' 2nd coming (Mt. 24:37,42,44), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Mt. 24:29-31). So in Mt. 24:42,44, Jesus could mean that only if believers don't watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the tribulation, the 2nd coming will happen at an hour they don't know/think not (cf. the if principle of Rev. 3:3b). In the context of Mt. 24:36,42,44, Jesus suggests it's possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Mt. 24:43-44a, 1 Thes. 5:4). Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Mt. 24:36), he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it's possible at some point in the future some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of the 2nd coming before it happens. Also, if we mistakenly think Jesus can come today or tomorrow (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-trib and symbolicist views), then how can we also claim he will come when nobody thinks he will (Mt 24:44)?

Also, compare the following: "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Mt. 24:36), "the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Cor. 2:11). If we claim the first verse means no man will ever know the date of the 2nd coming until it happens, then to be consistent we would have to also claim the 2nd verse means no man, not even believers, can know the things of God until the 2nd coming. But who would say that? For the Holy Spirit can currently reveal to believers the things of God (1 Cor. 2:12-13), he can currently guide them into all truth and show them what will happen in the future (Jn. 16:13), including the date of the 2nd coming. For, again, Jesus suggests it's possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Mt. 24:43-44a, 1 Thes. 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the 2nd coming: Surely God the Father won't send Jesus back without having first revealed to some believers the secret of the date of the 2nd coming. It could occur on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a 3rd Jewish temple (Dan. 12:11-12, Rev. 16:15, Dan. 11:31,36, Mt. 24:15).

I don't know, because the Bible says we don't know. And because I believe that we are to be spreading the gospel of Jesus salvation, not future tellers of Jesus return. It is very important to read and study the Bible, but it should be for the purpose of becoming better servants and Christians...not future tellers and code breakers.

God Bless

Bible2 said:

How has it been shown not to be almost entirely literal? It has been shown that Revelation is almost entirely literal because it is unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning that it should not be difficult for saved people of any time to understand

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Got ya!

Go back and read post 892.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7473593-90/#post62706837

Did I, or did I not, ask you never to repeat this paragraph again because I've addressed it multiple, multiple, multiple times? Here it is for you, quoted. You copied and pasted your standard rubbish (in bold) and then I replied.I'm not interested in reading this paragraph ever again. You've 'shared' it with me (forced it down my throat) about 30 or 40 times in our conversations over the last year. It just shows what an internet troll you are that you do this! This is your standard copy and paste, and so I'm ignoring it as it contains no new information. It's just nonsense, repeated and repeated and repeated. (See there, I just repeated the word repeated three times which is a Jewish symbol. But you wouldn't recognise thrice repeated words or numbers as symbolic, would you?)

If you repeat it here you're just proving what an internet troll you really are. I've addressed your 'arguments' in that paragraph repeatedly for the last year, showing how just because Revelation contains the gospel promise of Jesus eventual return does NOT make it a literal timetable of the last decades of human history. That's a preposterous claim, and if applied to other parts of the New Testament that discuss the gospel promise of Jesus return in judgement, turning them also into a timetable of the Last Decade, it would render them useless and unreadable mumbo-jumbo.

What Biblical symbols are you referring to?

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What do you think? All of them.

But even if I were not referring to all of them, you at least know how the scholars I read view Revelation 20 and the symbol of the Millennium, where they explain how Judgement Day was in fact looked at from a number of different angles in the previous few chapters.

Symbols like Jesus having 7 eyes and 7 horns and John writing to the 7 churches (when there were far more than 7 in Asia Minor) and the number of plagues and bowls etc all being SEVEN show that John is using the number in Jewish symbolism, as God's perfect number. These are NOT literal numbers, because John's use of the number in describing Jesus eyes and horns also shows us how he uses it in the rest of the book. The scholars I refer to also back up that this would have been the way the original church received it.

If you can't follow this then you are an internet troll with learning difficulties and I'm not corresponding with you any more.

How has that been shown for the vast majority of times? (That is, you might consider the vast majority to be symbolic when in fact the vast majority could be literal.)

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You don't even read my posts, do you? I listed the majority of times 1000 was used and showed how they were clearly metaphorical. EG: "God owns the cattle on 1000 hills..." What about all the other hills? You just ignore these OBVIOUS points and ask your silly questions again! "How has that been shown for the vast majority of times?" Because we READ, don't we?

Can you give some examples of what you considered to be unreliable references in the past?

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I already did that when I went back and showed that none of your verses indicated that there was a Sevenfold Holy Spirit, which you justify because you want all the numbers in Revelation to be LITERAL. They're not. Just asking "How has it been shown they are not literal?" does not make the last YEAR of our conversation go away. I'm not going to artistically tabulate every single conversation we ever have, and refer back to them chapter and verse. I can't help it if you have a difficulty with both comprehension and memory!

Anyway, as you went on to 'mark' my Judgement Day post which was actually directed to someone else, I'll remind you that I'm done trying to discuss the genre of Revelation with you as you've repeatedly refused to answer the points here.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7473593-90/#post62706837

Bible2:

I'm done trying to discuss the genre of Revelation with you as you've repeatedly refused to answer the points here.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7473593-90/#post62706837

You also showed yourself to be a copy and paste shill in this post, where you coped and pasted your infamously silly "It has been shown that Revelation is almost entirely literal because it is unsealed.." paragraph, which makes no sense of the genre and misapplies the 'unsealed' description to mean 'literal' (which it doesn't), and for for the many reasons I've outlined in our year of conversation and the summary of which is here.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7473593-92/#post62719062

Sorry Bible2 but there's absolutely no point discussing what Revelation says and means with you any more.

We do no agree on the basic genre, the basic 'rules of engagement' with this book, so I don't know why you insist on blurting out the obsessively detailed rubbish 'timetables' you indulge in so much? I'm not going to read them ever again! We cannot agree on what the literary rules are when reading this book, so why would I waste my time even bothering to read your endless ranting about Android Images of the Antichrist or whatever other rubbish you spam all over this forum?

I'm not going to debate your precious, sidetracking *details* when you cannot cite one scholar that agrees that Revelation should be read literally. If you cannot find credible reasons to read it literally, why would I take anything you say seriously? Just as I would not get into a car with a driver who did not have the correct prescription glasses on, I cannot engage anything you say about Revelation because you've got the wrong 'prescription' glasses on. You think it's literal. You think the fact that is is 'unsealed' tells us what genre of writing it is, and the fact that it promises the return of Jesus tells us what kind of writing it is. That's deluded. These 2 facts have no impact whatsoever on how to engage this book.

You cannot even provide a list of bible scholars who have stated that they agree Revelation is *literal*. It's not!

Here are the scholars I have mentioned previously who all teach Revelation is symbolic apocalyptic writing, *not* literal.

Dr Paul Barnett
Dr Leon Morris
John Richardson
Dr Greg Clarke and Dr John Dickson (Authors of 666 and all that)
Archbishop of Sydney Dr Peter Jensen
Dean of Sydney Anglican Cathedral Dr Philip Jensen
Countless staff and faculty at Moore College
Dr Kim Riddlebarger
And many, many more.

Give up Bible2, because I'm not actually reading you any more.

Bible2 said:

New Jerusalem is a literal city 1,500 miles cubed (Rev. 21:16), with literal pearly gates and literal streets of gold (Rev. 21:21). It's God the Father's house in the third heaven (Rev. 21:2-3, cf. 2 Cor. 12:2b,4, Rev. 2:7b, 22:2,14), in which house Jesus left to prepare a place for the church (Jn. 14:2). All those in the church, both Jews and Gentiles, have figuratively come to New Jerusalem by coming under the New Covenant (Heb. 12:22-24, Gal. 4:24-26), which is made only with Israel (Jer. 31:31-34), and which only the church comes under by believing in Jesus' New Covenant death on the Cross for our sins (Mt. 26:28, 1 Cor. 11:25, 2 Cor. 3:6, Heb. 9:15), the very heart of the gospel (1 Cor. 15:1-4). The church looks for Jesus' return from heaven (Philip. 3:20) and his setting up of his millennial kingdom on the earth with the bodily resurrected church (Rev. 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29). New Jerusalem won't descend from the third heaven to the earth until after a new earth (i.e. a new surface of the earth) has been created (Rev. 21:1-4), sometime after the millennium and subsequent events are over (Rev. 20:7-15). The church will physically live and reign in New Jerusalem with God the Father and Jesus on the new earth (Rev. 21:1-22:5).

Rev. 21:2,9-10 means that the physical structure of the literal city of New Jerusalem is a picture of the church. Something can be literal and at the same time symbolically picture something else. For example, Mt. 21:19's fig tree was literal and at the same time its being without fruit symbolically pictured unbelieving Israel being without fruit (Mt. 21:43).

Just as New Jerusalem's literal wall foundations have the names of the twelve apostles on them (Rev. 21:14), so the church's foundation is the apostles (Eph. 2:20). And just as New Jerusalem's literal pearly gates have the names of Israel's twelve tribes on them (Rev. 21:12,21), so the church consists of Israel's 12 tribes.

For all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Rom. 11:1, Acts 4:36), & all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Rom. 11:17,24, Eph. 2:12,19, Gal. 3:29), & so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezek. 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Rev. 21:9,12). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Mt. 26:28, 1 Cor. 11:25, 2 Cor. 3:6, Heb. 9:15), & the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jer. 31:31-34, Jn. 4:22b). Jn. 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Cor. 12:13, Eph. 4:4-6, Rev. 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray & ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, & he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Mt. 21:22), without any wavering (cf. Jas. 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Rom. 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Rom. 2:29, Philip. 3:3, Col. 2:11-13).

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Yes I believe that it's a actual city ... But i was asking eclipes of the amil version of what the city meant to them...