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Hi Mandy,Barack Hussein Obama might be the anti-christ (I've heard that from some friends who I trust) so it may be sooner than we think.
Rev12:17 says that Satan goes after the woman's remnant, who keep the commandments and have the testimony of JESUS CHRIST
That means they are Christians, being wathed on by Satan, and that is well after chapter 4
the trib, whether it is 7 years or not, is not the wrath of God...
it's Satan's wrath that God allows....
and Christians have a job to do during it...
they have to witness against the false Christ that is coming to conquer the world...
I listened to Impe for a few years too, but although I don't doubt his passion,
now I find that I disagree with just about everything he says
with regards to the rapture and end time events
Bro, many here agree with you, however i completely disagree.
Jesus warned us of false Christ(s) and most of us believe the bible depicts a specific one at the end
the bible is full of the signs that herald that time...
we as Christians that study the bible, should be able to see those signs.
why would God bother telling us of the trib, at all,
if we were not going to be here to experience it?
na, the bible says that the resurrection of the dead in Christ, is on the last day
and the bible says that the gathering to Christ (rapture) is after the resurrection of the dead in Christ
so pre trib must be wrong, for many reasons
Why do you think Revelation is even speaking of the future? Why isn't it speaking generally of all the 'Last Days' (which started 2000 years ago when Jesus was resurrected into his heavenly body, redeeming not just humanity but this entire creation for re-creation, and which started the Last Days. Acts 2 and Hebrews 1).This is one thing I don't understand. See in Revelation it speaks of the angels breaking seals and pouring out. I always understood that this WAS God pouring out his Wrath against unbelievers (again this is after [pre-trib] the legit and believing church is raptured up, so that we won't have to deal with it all and those who rejected God's word or didn't believe but knew the truth are left on the earth).
Why do you think Revelation is even speaking of the future? Why isn't it speaking generally of all the 'Last Days' (which started 2000 years ago when Jesus was resurrected into his heavenly body, redeeming not just humanity but this entire creation for re-creation, and which started the Last Days. Acts 2 and Hebrews 1).
Revelation isn't some specific description of a specific End Times time table that only we can understand with OUR specific newspaper headlines. Revelation is something that should have comforted all the saints in all generations. I don't understand why everyone here thinks it is only relevant to us, 2000 years later. John wanted HIS generation to hear and obey. That means it was about them and applied to them as much as us. I take it, because of his gospel focus in chapter 1, that the whole book is actually an apocalyptic statement of the gospel.
I find these endless debates about what Revelation means, and which timetable it supports, utterly depressing. So many cults start from this millennial stuff.
I did not say that the resurrection has already passed, just that the second coming and first horseman have already come to pass. The first resurrection occurs much later, in chapter 20, in our future.It is heresy because it is a belief that spreads like a cancer and undermines the faith of believers in the word of God.
17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.
2 Timothy 2:17
Stating that Jesus Christ has returned is to say that the resurrection is past as well.
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:20-23
and again -
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
and again -
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
The resurrection takes place when Jesus Christ returns!
To say that Jesus has returned, is to say the resurrection is past!
To say the resurrection is past is HERESY!
Those who promote HERESIES will not enter the kingdom of God!
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21
JLB
Zeke, you didn't offend me at all. I've always enjoy discussing and debating eschatology with friends and acquaintenances. I don't have alot where I live and my wife doesn't like me talking about it around her (then again that was primarily about 12-21-12, not sure how she feels since we've passed that now)
Sorry it's taken so long to get back, life and work have really been slamming me. If you don't mind again, I'd like to come back with a few comments and see what I get back from you and the community.
This is one thing I don't understand. See in Revelation it speaks of the angels breaking seals and pouring out.
the latter days leading up to the end, will not be God's wrathI always understood that this WAS God pouring out his Wrath against unbelievers
fantasy(again this is after [pre-trib] the legit and believing church is raptured up, so that we won't have to deal with it all and those who rejected God's word or didn't believe but knew the truth are left on the earth).
the foundation of my specific dogma, was taught to me by Pastor Arnold Murray,Who do you listen to or get your info now? I'm trying to keep an open mind for the different beliefs.
sure was, and that would be a waste if we were gone, wouldn't it?I always believed that the warnings and fore-tellings of the false Christ and signs was literally to warn us of what was to come and to spread the word of what was to come.
huh? I don't understand your point?I agree that those Christians who read the bible should know what to look for and watch for, but those who don't and those non-christians would either have no clue or would hear some 5th-party telling of the warnings that none of it would make since or sound so foolish that they would steer away from the church.
we see things so differently, it's not funny.That way once we are gone in that blink of an eye and the entire world is in chaos and scared, those who didn't fully believe would be then recognizing what happened. Thus they start spreading the word and ministering, but they have to deal with the 21 judgements.
where? there are not two resurrections of the dead in Christ.Thought that related to the 2nd resurrection and not the first. Since there is two resurrections of the dead.
most Christians see Revelations as a look at the final end of the world because completely woven into the Revelation story is judgement day and the second coming of Jesus,
you can not separate these facts from the Revelation, saying the Revelation has occured already (fall of Jerusalem 70ad) yet void of the second coming and judgement would be the greatest hermeneutical mistake
hi the seals are not the specific wrath of God that we are not appointed to. God's wrath begins when Christ gets here, which is at Judgement and the time of the dead (same timing as 1Thes4's rapture , which is post trib)
see Rev11's 7th trump and Rev19
the latter days leading up to the end, will not be God's wrath
The trib is Satan's wrath according to Rev12
God's wrath is a whole lot worse and follows Satan's wrath. see Rev20
sure was, and that would be a waste if we were gone, wouldn't it?
the warnings are for "us" to recognize the season,
'cause everyone else but us who remain faithful will be in the dark
and not see the signs that point to The Light
huh? I don't understand your point?
that's the way it is TODAY
we see things so differently, it's not funny.
there is no pre trib rapture. it's fantasy.
the signs are for YOU and me, if we live to see them,
and the test is for YOU and me, if you live to see that hour of testing.
where? there are not two resurrections of the dead in Christ.
all righteous dead are brought from heaven and raised here at His Coming, which happens on the last day according to John 6 and 11
and the rapture is after that, according to 1Thes4
I believe the last day, is the Millennium or 1000 years, so the righteous are "raised" at it's beginning
but the rest of the dead (unrighteous) are raised at the end of the 1000 year long last day for destruction
I'm starting to understand where you're coming from on this topic.
The pretense I was trying to use (forgive me if it came out confused (was and still am running on low sleep due to work and holidays) was (again assuming there was a pre-trib rapture) as if we warned the people around us and we're taken up and they're left, but there are those who didn't believe fully and do believe, after the rapture happens. Good example is the movie "Left Behind".
that's all I can ever ask, personally.We may see things differently now, but after I do my own research and seeking, I might agree with you or I might continue on with my beliefs.
I don't think you can find biblical support for a pre trib Resurrection of the deadI cannot go against this statement right now, where I thought I was referencing is incorrect and did not say it. What I thought was that the first resurrection was just before the (pre-trib) rapture and then the second is at the beginning of the millennium.
let me know if u doI understand what you're saying here. Again, I can't advise against this statement due to I can't remember where my reference was. Once I find it, ill let you know.
completely, however I used to be a pre tribber once upon a time,By your statements, I take it your post-trib?
It means the conditions up to and including AD70 did not last forever. They come back, now and then, which is the whole point of the cyclic persecution breaking out in Revelation (in groups of 7).I thought I would re-awaken this thread with a few interesting questions:
1. In Matthew 24:22, by the days being cut short does Christ mean a literal shortening of the 24 hour day, or a shortening of some future period of time?
Again, Revelation is the most symbolic book in the bible so trying to read any future timetable into it is really unwise.A literal shortening of the 24-hour day may be mentioned in the book of Revelation in chapter 8, where "the day shone not for the third part of it, and the night likewise."
2. Mt. 24:23-26 - Will people really believe that Jesus Christ has returned? Christ says that they will say "Here is Christ" or "There" - this must be quite some deception if people really believe Jesus Christ has returned.
Show me where Matt 24 actually defines Titus actions as those of the AntiChrist and then I'll believe that 2 TH 2 has anything to do with it.Is it possible that the antichrist is the fake Jesus Christ - the fake Second Coming (maybe described in 2 Th. 2?).
This just explains, all the more, how self-contradictory the various futurist schemes really are. That's a perceptive question you are asking: there is no answer. None that justifies these contradictions. That's one of the reasons I'm Amil.If so, why does the antichrist open his mouth in blasphemy against God? Wouldn't it seem odd that "Christ" is opening his mouth in blasphemy against God? Or perhaps people get God mixed up with Satan - e.g., it is simply a redefinition of words. God becomes Satan and Satan becomes God?
There's nothing 'enigmatic' or mysterious about it. We will NOT know when he is coming back! Jesus is talking about 2 things to answer the disciples questions: the end of the temple (these things) and the fact that no false Christ shoudl trick them because THAT DAY will be unmistakable. These things V THAT DAY. Check it out, they are 2 different times.3. What does Christ mean when he makes the enigmatic statement that he is coming at an hour we do not expect (Mt. 24:44)?
This is a very interesting passage which I have pondered over for quite some time...any ideas on it? What would be an hour that we (the disciples) would not expect?
It means the conditions up to and including AD70 did not last forever. They come back, now and then, which is the whole point of the cyclic persecution breaking out in Revelation (in groups of 7).
It's a warning about the many false military messiah's that are documented to have tried to kick out the Romans. These uprisings ironically caused the eventual destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.
This just explains, all the more, how self-contradictory the various futurist schemes really are. That's a perceptive question you are asking: there is no answer. None that justifies these contradictions. That's one of the reasons I'm Amil.
In 5 seconds or 50,000 years. That's the point. We will NOT expect it!
Just remember, it was the disciples, not Jesus, who assumed that the destruction of God's temple must mean the end of the age...Hello there ecplise,
Your insights are definitely interesting. However, I remain unsure about the whole Matthew 24 - AD 70 idea. I have studied commentaries where that idea is set forth, but I am just not sure that it is actually true. I will address this a little later in this post.
This sounds plausible, but if you look at Paul's discussion in 2 Th. 2 he specifically says the antichrist will come with false signs/wonders. This totally confirms what Christ tells us in Mt. 24:24 about the false Christs/false prophets who shall show great signs/wonders. .
Just remember, it was the disciples, not Jesus, who assumed that the destruction of God's temple must mean the end of the age...
Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?
But the question before us is: "24For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.25See, I have told you beforehand.26So, if they say to you, Look, he is in the wilderness, do not go out. If they say, Look, he is in the inner rooms, do not believe it.27For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."
Historians tell us there were many false Messiah's and many 'miracle worker's' back then. So many, that they eventually caused uprisings to kick out the Romans which ultimately brought down the wrath of Rome and fulfilled the verses above!
I thought I would re-awaken this thread with a few interesting questions:
1. In Matthew 24:22, by the days being cut short does Christ mean a literal shortening of the 24 hour day, or a shortening of some future period of time?
A literal shortening of the 24-hour day may be mentioned in the book of Revelation in chapter 8, where "the day shone not for the third part of it, and the night likewise."
2. Mt. 24:23-26 - Will people really believe that Jesus Christ has returned? Christ says that they will say "Here is Christ" or "There" - this must be quite some deception if people really believe Jesus Christ has returned.
Is it possible that the antichrist is the fake Jesus Christ - the fake Second Coming (maybe described in 2 Th. 2?). If so, why does the antichrist open his mouth in blasphemy against God? Wouldn't it seem odd that "Christ" is opening his mouth in blasphemy against God? Or perhaps people get God mixed up with Satan - e.g., it is simply a redefinition of words. God becomes Satan and Satan becomes God?
3. What does Christ mean when he makes the enigmatic statement that he is coming at an hour we do not expect (Mt. 24:44)?
This is a very interesting passage which I have pondered over for quite some time...any ideas on it? What would be an hour that we (the disciples) would not expect?
4. What is the significance of "midnight" in Mt. 25:6 and what is the "midnight cry?"
Perhaps the midnight cry is the resurrection of the two witnesses? But what is the significance of the fact that the bridegroom comes at midnight?
Any ideas?
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