When Were You "Saved"?

[jer3119]

that may be true , but the question isn't "when were you justified ?" ....... it was ...
When Were You "Saved"?

Precisely!

Thank you Cygnus.

In Christ's precious love,
jer3119

 

[jer3119]

"Quote :
Originally Posted by jer3119
Pink has a good piece on this...

Indeed he does and he agrees with me:"

No my poor confused friend, he does not. What you have quoted from in the prior post speaks a great deal about justification, as does the section you referred to from Gill in your previous pathetic attempt to avoid admitting your error.

I am quite aware of what justification is both in it's virtual existence in the mind and will of God at that great counsel in heaven between the Father, Son and Spirit, before the foundation of the world and what was most blessedly and assuredly agreed to and made certain by each member of the Trinity there in all of it's aspects, of which Justification, blessed though it is, is only one.

Therefore what you seem to be missing is that justification was only one aspect of this great counsel, and the means by which justification would be worked out in time to magnify the Glory of God was also made certain at that time, and those means are not to be slighted or confused with each other lest we do God's great wisdom and the Glory revealed therein, harm. All of those means fall under the term salvation, not jusfication.

Here, for the last time, once again, are Pinks words on this subject. You could and should have gone to my prior post on this matter and did not do so, so I have taken the trouble to put them before you here. Please read them:

"
Even when there is fundamental soundness in their views upon Divine salvation many have such inadequate and one-sided conceptions that other aspects of this truth, equally important and essential, are often overlooked and tacitly denied. How many, for example, would be capable of giving a simple exposition of the following texts: "Who hat/i saved us" (2 Tim. 1:9), "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling’ (Phil. 2:12), "Now is our salvation nearer than when we believed’ (Rom. 13:11). Now those verses do not refer to three different salvations, but to three separate aspects of one, and unless we learn to distinguish sharply among them, there can be naught but confusion and cloudiness in our thinking. Those passages present three distinct phases and stages of salvation: salvation as an accomplished fact, as a present process, and as a future prospect.
So many today ignore these distinctions, jumbling them together. Some contend for one and some argue against the other two; and vice versa. Some insist they are already saved, and deny that they are now being saved. Some declare that salvation is entirely future, and deny that it is in any sense already accomplished. Both are wrong. The fact is that the great majority of professing Christians fail to see that "salvation" is one of the most comprehensive terms in all the Scriptures, including predestination, regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification. They have far too cramped an idea of the meaning and scope of the word "salvation" (as it is used in the Scriptures), narrowing its range too much, generally confining their thoughts to but a simple phase. They suppose "salvation" means no more than the new birth or the forgiveness of sins. Were one to tell them that salvation is a protracted process, they would view him with suspicion; and if he affirmed that salvation is something awaiting us in the future, they would at once dub him a heretic. Yet they would be the ones to err.

You are doing precisely what Pink is describing here and you are doing so while you tell me you have read Pink and he agrees with you. I am forced to conclude that you are either unable to read, or more interested in proving you are right and avoiding the admission of error, because of your pride, than you are in learning and honoring God. Now which is it, sir? Which is it?

In Christ's love, my dear brother, hoping for your recovery from this grave blindness which seems to have enveloped you and removed your ability to reason clearly,
jer3119

 

[Iosias]

that may be true , but the question isn't "when were you justified ?" ....... it was ...
When Were You "Saved"?

But we are saved when we are justified! To be saved is to be justified and to be justified is to be saved hence soteriology is involved in issues of justification.

 

[Iosias]

You are doing precisely what Pink is describing here and you are doing so while you tell me you have read Pink and he agrees with you.

My comment was refering to the quote of Pink I posted not yours. In your opinion then what is the answer to your question of when we are saved?

I will stick with Gill:

Ephesians 2:8

Ver. 8. For by grace are ye saved[SIZE=+1],.... This is to be understood, not of temporal salvation, nor of preservation in Christ, nor of providential salvation in order to calling, and much less of being put in a way of salvation, or only in a salvable state; but of spiritual salvation, and that actual; for salvation was not only resolved upon, contrived and secured in the covenant of grace, for the persons here spoken to, but it was actually obtained and wrought out for them by Christ, and was actually applied unto them by the Spirit; and even as to the full enjoyment of it, they had it in faith and hope; and because of the certainty of it, they are said to be already saved; and besides, were representatively possessed of it in Christ their head: those interested in this salvation, are not all mankind, but particular persons; and such who were by nature children of wrath, and sinners of the Gentiles; and it is a salvation from sin, Satan, the law, its curse and condemnation, and from eternal death, and wrath to come; and includes all the blessings of grace and glory; and is entirely owing to free grace: for by grace is not meant the Gospel, nor gifts of grace, nor grace infused; but the free favour of God, to which salvation in all its branches is ascribed; as election, redemption, justification, pardon, adoption, regeneration, and eternal glory: the Syriac, Arabic, and Ethiopic versions read, "by his grace", and so some copies; and it may refer to the grace of all the three Persons; for men are saved by the grace of the Father, who drew the plan of salvation, appointed men to it, made a covenant with his Son, in which it is provided and secured, and sent him into the world to obtain it; and by the grace of the Son, who engaged as a surety to effect it, assumed human nature, obeyed and suffered in it for that purpose, and has procured it; and by the grace of the Spirit, who makes men sensible of their need of it, brings it near, sets it before them, and applies it to them, and gives them faith and hope in it: hence it follows,

through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God[SIZE=+1]; salvation is through faith, not as a cause or condition of salvation, or as what adds anything to the blessing itself; but it is the way, or means, or instrument, which God has appointed, for the receiving and enjoying it, that so it might appear to be all of grace; and this faith is not the produce of man's free will and power, but it is the free gift of God; and therefore salvation through it is consistent with salvation by grace; since that itself is of grace, lies entirely in receiving grace and gives all the glory to the grace of God: the sense of this last clause may be, that salvation is not of ourselves; it is not of our desiring nor of our deserving, nor of our performing, but is of the free grace of God: though faith is elsewhere represented as the gift of God, Joh 6:65 and it is called the special gift of faith, in the Apocrypha:

"And blessed is the eunuch, which with his hands hath wrought no iniquity, nor imagined wicked things against God: for unto him shall be given the "special gift of faith", and an inheritance in the temple of the Lord more acceptable to his mind.'' (Wisdom 3:14)[/SIZE][/SIZE]

 

[cygnusx1]

But we are saved when we are justified! To be saved is to be justified and to be justified is to be saved hence soteriology is involved in issues of justification.

keep digging ..............

 

[jer3119]

But we are saved when we are justified! To be saved is to be justified and to be justified is to be saved hence soteriology is involved in issues of justification.

No, we were not saved when we are justified.

Go back and read Pink again, my quote not yours, that's why I gave it to you, because your's was a misapplication of the point being made.

And before you do, I strongly suggest that you get down on your knees and ask God to show you the truth of this matter, confessing to him your abominable pride and foolishness (I do it all the time, many times a day, it doesn't hurt like your flesh and the devil tell you it will, indeed if you do it sincerely, rather than just mouth the words, it will be accompanied by His peace and forgiveness, and will be a great relief to you, not to mention that He will open your understanding to such matters as this and many others that you have need of) and also ask Him to give you light and understanding and to take away the spirit of hastiness, and impulsivity, the same thing that plagued Peter. Remember, He will not correct these things in any of us, until and unless, we recognize, confess, and ask for deliverance from them.

Christianity is much more than the doctrines you keep pointing too; indeed it is more important that you MORTIFY YOUR FLESH, for until you do this, you will not only make yourself, but everyone you come in contact with, miserable. What I have described to you above is simply one of the ways we do this all important thing called mortification.

One last thing, you know that little smiley you have as a part of your description? The one where you describe yourself as "hyper"? Well, you need to get rid of that, not just the smiley, because as of this time it is true, and you are indeed "hyper" and it is reflected in all you do on this forum and in life in general. Right? Well, what you need to do is get rid of what is making you hyper, and you need to replace it with a calm, quiet, gentle spirit, full of love and understanding and compassion and wisdom. God will help you do this if you ask Him to. He wants too and is just waiting for you to ask Him. But He won't do so until you follow His method for doing so.

I'm praying for you in this.

Now heres the Pink quote one more time:

The fact is that the great majority of professing Christians fail to see that "salvation" is one of the most comprehensive terms in all the Scriptures, including predestination, regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification. They have far too cramped an idea of the meaning and scope of the word "salvation" (as it is used in the Scriptures), narrowing its range too much, generally confining their thoughts to but a simple phase.

Notice how Pink says salvation includes justification. It is like a chocolate cake. A chocolate cake is not just coccoa, but also salt, flour, sugar, eggs, butter, baking powder, and perhaps one or two other things including an hour or so in the oven. So a chocolate cake is made up of several ingredients, mixed in the right proportions over a period of time, and then baked for a while at relatively high heat. It is both ingredients and process. The same is true of salvation. Salvation describes the WHOLE PROCESS and the individual INGREDIENTS. Not just one aspect of it which is justification. No one will be completely saved, in the scriptural meaning of the term, until he is finally glorified.

Hermeneutics 101 tells all students of scripture that in order to construct a doctrine of ANY subject in the Bible, like salvation, you must reconcile all the verses on the subject and make them all agree. This is why Paul told the Ephesians that the very key to his ministry was that "HE DID NOT SHRINK BACK FROM DECLARING THE WHOLE COUNSEL OF THE WORD OF GOD", ACTS 2027. This is what is meant by the phase "Scripture interprets scripture", and the "analogy of the faith". It is the only thing that will keep you or anyone from error in interpretation. The only way to do this with salvation, as Pink has done, is to recognize that salvation includes all of the terms used in scripture that deal with this issue from regeneration to glorification, of which justification is only one element.

Your failure to recognize this is the same failure that plagues you in other areas, so the sooner you deal with it the sooner you will find peace.

Again, I am praying for your victory in this matter.

Now take a deep breath, slow down, and go think and pray about it and don't post on it again until you have done what I have suggested, perhaps a number of times. The peace and joy and insight you will discover will be a great relief to you.

Much Christian love,
in Him,
jer3119

 

[christianmomof3]

Salvation describes the WHOLE PROCESS and the individual INGREDIENTS. Not just one aspect of it which is justification. No one will be completely saved, in the scriptural meaning of the term, until he is finally glorified.

Yes, I have heard something like this.
I am rotten with remembering sayings so I will probably get it wrong.
But it is something like:
I have been saved, I am saved and I am being saved.

As was stated, salvation is a process.

When people refer to when they were saved, they generally are referring to when they were regenerated.

Some groups or individuals apparantly don't believe that there is a "moment in time" that one is saved.
Do ya'll share that belief?
Or do you feel that there is a "moment in time" that we initially are saved?

I realize that for some people who grow up in Christian households, they may not remember an exact moment of salvation. That does not mean they did not have one or that other people don't.

I personally was Jewish the first 27 years of my life, so I sure did have a "moment in time" that I was saved - regenerated - born-again - whatever people chose to call it. Before that moment I did not accpet that Jesus Christ was God and at that moment I prayed to Him by name and He came into my life and began to reveal Himself to me and began transforming me into His image.
I am not fully transformed into His image and will not be until I receive a glorified body after He returns. But, He is growing in me daily and transforming me daily and that is my daily salvation.

 

[jer3119]

Yes, I have heard something like this.
I am rotten with remembering sayings so I will probably get it wrong.
But it is something like:
I have been saved, I am saved and I am being saved.

As was stated, salvation is a process.

When people refer to when they were saved, they generally are referring to when they were regenerated.

Some groups or individuals apparantly don't believe that there is a "moment in time" that one is saved.
Do ya'll share that belief?
Or do you feel that there is a "moment in time" that we initially are saved?

I realize that for some people who grow up in Christian households, they may not remember an exact moment of salvation. That does not mean they did not have one or that other people don't.

I personally was Jewish the first 27 years of my life, so I sure did have a "moment in time" that I was saved - regenerated - born-again - whatever people chose to call it. Before that moment I did not accpet that Jesus Christ was God and at that moment I prayed to Him by name and He came into my life and began to reveal Himself to me and began transforming me into His image.
I am not fully transformed into His image and will not be until I receive a glorified body after He returns. But, He is growing in me daily and transforming me daily and that is my daily salvation.

Before regeneration one is spiritually dead, and one is not alive to God and His word. But when the Holy Spirit gives life at regeneration, which is a point in time event in each person's life in this time state, "all things are made new" spiritually, not physically or naturally. A principle of spiritual life is now the posession in the "inner man".

Some as you observe, particularly some in Christian homes, though this is not by any means always the case, do not recall the point in time. Others such as T. Goodwin, J. Edwards, and A W Pink, who were raised in very godly homes do remember the point in time precisely. I believe this is for a variety of reasons and in Edwards and Goodwin's cases they thought about and studied the issue extensively, and they also had very real, palpable, and extraordinay conversion experiences, which made the study easier.

The better the teaching one has on the issue the better for sorting it all out, and the more one thinks about it, the more signs and evidences one will discover. The scriptures are full of them and we are told to "be all the more diligent to make our calling and election sure" and to "examine ourselves to see if we be in the faith". The more clearly one sees this and understands it doctrinally and experientially the stronger a Christian they will be and thus will tend to glorify God the more perfectly fulfilling the exhortation "whether you eat or drink or what ever you do, do it all to the Glory of God".

Conversion, salvation, is the greatest imperative, the only imperative, for a lost soul, a mortal soul. Nothing else is important. Nothing else matters. It is madness to be concerned about anything but this, and this is of course why such confusion exists on the subject, because Satan, as "the ruler of this world" and the "author of confusion" would have it so.

Just because others don't remember their salvation don't let that detract from the beauty and wonder of your own. Satan will use any and every means to discourage and dismay. The more you study the subject in the light of scripture, especially reading the faithful older authors, the more you will be encouraged and strengthened. I would encourage you also, as your post and testimony indicate that you do, not to rest on what has been done, exclusively, though, but to seek to be:

"strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
That Christ may dwell in your heart by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might filled with all the fulness of God." (Eph 3:16b-19)​

If this along with the prayer Paul prayed for his Ephesian friends in Eph 1 for a "spirit of wisdom and Revelation" in the "true knowledge of Him" is what the great apostle to the gentiles wished for his Ephesian brothers and sisters, surely it is what he would wish for us also.​

Much Christian love to you,
in Him,
jer3119​

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[Iosias]

Notice how Pink says salvation includes justification.

Thank you for your post. What then is your own position? How would you answer the following question? "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" (Act 16:30). How are we saved?

 

[cygnusx1]

Thank you for your post. What then is your own position? How would you answer the following question? "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" (Act 16:30). How are we saved?

*first of all find out if you are elect , then you can be sure God wants to save you and not damn you ........ * .....

 

[jer3119]

*first of all find out if you are elect , then you can be sure God wants to save you and not damn you ........ * .....

I couldn't have said it better myself Cygnusx1!!

Oh well, I tried. I can do no more.

Much Christian love, "sigh",

In Him,
jer3119

 

[Iosias]

Oh well, I tried. I can do no more.

You have not answered my questions! What then is your own position? How would you answer the following question? "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" (Act 16:30). How are we saved?

 

[Salamon]

I must say AV1611 is asking a question that you should be able to answer very easily! I don't think he is trying to give you a hard time just looking for what you think is the way to be saved. Every Christian if posed with this question should be able to answer it for it is a personal message of what has happened in their life. Now I realize it appears he is asking a certain person but if you don't want to answer I can! (Raises hand)

 

[jer3119]

I must say AV1611 is asking a question that you should be able to answer very easily! I don't think he is trying to give you a hard time just looking for what you think is the way to be saved. Every Christian if posed with this question should be able to answer it for it is a personal message of what has happened in their life. Now I realize it appears he is asking a certain person but if you don't want to answer I can! (Raises hand)

My dear friend.

Have I not answered the question already? Is it not laid out clearly, precisely, consecutively and comprehensively in Pinks work on this subject, wherein he rightly points out that while there is a "simple" aspect to it as you state, there is also, taking in all of scripture, as the analogy of the faith requires us to do in matters of doctrine, a much more complicated one. And that is the one that is being dealt with in this thread. It was started for the very reason to set aside the simplistic, partial, erroneous and misleading concepts that surround this most important and vital of all subjects for every mortal soul.

Have you read Pinks work on the subject?

Have you read the whole thread? Have your read all the pertinent scriptures that use the term "saved", such as "am saved", "have been saved", "am being saved"? Have you attempted to put them together in your mind so that they do not contradict one another, as the tenses used in each term seem to on first glance, and do harm to those scriptures in much the same way one does with respect to the issue of the use of the term "the world" in Jn 3:16 if he does not consider how this word is used in various contexts, and what God's Spirit would have us know and understand by using these words in various ways and contexts?

Finally, I would note that you are one who has said he appreciates that great saint John Bunyan's work, "The Holy War".

You are perhaps, I hope, then also familiar with his more widely known work "The Pilgrims Progress". Taking that work, at what point would you say that "Christian" was saved? To get you started on your answer, and I encourage you not to be hasty in your reply, as I did AV1611, please consider the following verse, spoken by the Lord Himself, when comparing all the pertinent verses:

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name&#8217;s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."​

Taking God's Word lightly, which one does when he considers not the "Whole Counsel of the Word of God" leads to many grave errors and we are told in Proverbs "Every Word of God is pure". Never forget, scripture interprets scripture.​

Much Christian love,
In Him,
jer3119

 

[Rick Otto]

He even gives ya the chapter & verse.
Give him what he asks;
Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.