GrinningDwarf
Just a humble servant
(cont.)
The argument usually starts right here, at the point of salvation. And thats the wrong place to start the discussion. The are several underlying assumptions to both points of view of salvation, and all of those assumptions need to be understood, or else well be talking right past each other and never understand one another, let alone come to any kind of an agreement.
The first and biggest assumption of evangelicals is that at the point of decision, we choose to decide for Christ before our spirit has been regenerated. Many scriptures call upon us to choose.
In order to believe that, weve already got some assumptions about the fall of man. If we believe that we are capable of saving faith before we are regenerated, we must also believe that whatever effect the Fall had upon man, we still have the capacity to choose for Christ in our unregenerate state. Its a simple matter of definitions. Unregenerate means not regenerated, or not made new. If we have to choose for Christ before we are born again, in fact, so that we can be born again, then we make that choice in our unregenerate state.
Lets go back to the fall of man and examine the effects of the fall on the will of man.
All Christians agree that the Fall of Man introduced sin and brought separation between man and God. All Christians agree that the effects of sin upon man today are pervasive. Where Christians differ is over how pervasive the effects of sin are. The typical evangelical view is that because of sin, our minds are closed to the things of God until He brings us to the point where we see the truth of the Gospel¼the depth of our sin and the need for Christs substitutionary atonement. At that point, still unregenerate, the evangelical view says that we have a choice to either receive Gods grace or reject it. The ball is in our court, so to speak. In fact, the evangelical view says that the ball has to be in our court to have any meaning.
The Reformed view says that sin is even more pervasive in our nature. The Reformed view says that we do indeed have free will¼but sin so pervades our nature that left to our own, we will never choose God. Even though man is free to make choices, mans lack of desire for Christ will mean he never, of his own free will, and in his unregenerate state, chooses Christ. Jonathan Edwards defined Free Will as the ability to choose what we want. Edwards also says The will always chooses according to its strongest inclination at the moment. Left with our sin nature intact, our strongest inclination will always be away from God; therefore, an unregenerated man will never choose God.
Lets take a look at what scripture has to say about man in an unregenerate state.
Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me. Psalm 51:5
Even from birth the wicked go astray;
from the womb they are wayward and speak lies. Psalm 58:3
The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done. Gen 8:21
(This is not a hypothetical evil that may be in some mens hearts. God says here that every inclination of all mens hearts are evil from childhood.)
This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead. Ecclesiastes 9:3
The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it? Jeremiah 17:9
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. John 3:19
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14
(Notice, the man without the Spirit...or an unregenerate man...does not accept the things of God.)
So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more. Ephesians 4:17-19
To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. *** 1:15
...the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. Romans 8:7-8
(The King James and New King James versions phrase this the carnal mind is enmity towards God. Think about that the next time you hear the phrase carnal Christian.)
Lets think about this for a minute. The unregenerate person is sinful, wayward, lying, having every inclination towards evil, mad, loving of darkness, rejecting of the things of God, considering the things of God as foolishness, hardened, insensitive, corrupt, and hostile towards God. Why would such a person even want anything to do with God?
Many Scriptures will support this: Gen. 6:5, 8:21; Ecc. 9:3; Jer. 17:9; Mk. 7:21-23; Jn. 3:19; Ro. 3:9-12, 8:7-8; 1 Cor. 2:14; Eph. 4:17-19, 5:8; ***. 1:15, and others.
(An interesting note is that non-Reformed people use these verses all the time to indicate fallen mans state, but they dont take the pervasiveness as far as the Scriptures indicate.)
Non-Reformed views say that once we have decided for Christ, God regenerates our spirit and we are born again. They say faith precedes regeneration. Then there is a split here between those who think this salvation can be lost and those who say this salvation is secure forever. To be honest, I dont see how those who have the typical evangelical view can see that salvation is ever secure on this side of heaven. If salvation ultimately comes down to our choice for God or not, they say it is an irrevocable decision. But if our freedom of choice is so vital in the process, why would that choice get taken away after weve decided for God? The view of UCES (or what my non-Reformed AG missionary friend calls UnConditional Eternal Security, and what everybody else calls Once Saved, Always Saved) is one of the most inconsistent views in Christendom, in my opinion. If someone is coming from the worldview that Mans Freedom and Free Will are so paramount that God, even in His Sovereignty, will not 'violate' them, then they are going to read scripture through that lens, and they will find all kinds of scriptural support for their position that a Christian can lose his salvation.
The Reformed view says we will never choose Christ until God has regenerated our spirit. It says that regeneration precedes faith. This is why in the Reformed view a truly saved person will never fall away. God has taken our heart of stone and replaced it with a heart of flesh (Ez. 36:26). This is also why the Reformed view says that someone who walks away from the Lord and lives the rest of his life in unrepentant sin was never saved to begin with¼because when God replaces your heart of stone with a heart of flesh, it works every time. God is able to save absolutely those he has chosen and regenerated.
Lets go back to our friend Hal. Remember that at one point in the conversation, he became aware of the truth of the message and saw his lost state and his need for the Savior? The Reformed view says that the only reason Hal has reached this point is because of a work that God has just done in his heart. An unregenerate Hal would never have reached this point. An unregenerate Hal would, of his own free will and by his own choice, have cheerfully gone on denying God. When God changed Hals heart, Hal was now able, of his own free will and by his own choice, to see his need and surrender to the Savior.
RO 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
The argument usually starts right here, at the point of salvation. And thats the wrong place to start the discussion. The are several underlying assumptions to both points of view of salvation, and all of those assumptions need to be understood, or else well be talking right past each other and never understand one another, let alone come to any kind of an agreement.
The first and biggest assumption of evangelicals is that at the point of decision, we choose to decide for Christ before our spirit has been regenerated. Many scriptures call upon us to choose.
In order to believe that, weve already got some assumptions about the fall of man. If we believe that we are capable of saving faith before we are regenerated, we must also believe that whatever effect the Fall had upon man, we still have the capacity to choose for Christ in our unregenerate state. Its a simple matter of definitions. Unregenerate means not regenerated, or not made new. If we have to choose for Christ before we are born again, in fact, so that we can be born again, then we make that choice in our unregenerate state.
Lets go back to the fall of man and examine the effects of the fall on the will of man.
All Christians agree that the Fall of Man introduced sin and brought separation between man and God. All Christians agree that the effects of sin upon man today are pervasive. Where Christians differ is over how pervasive the effects of sin are. The typical evangelical view is that because of sin, our minds are closed to the things of God until He brings us to the point where we see the truth of the Gospel¼the depth of our sin and the need for Christs substitutionary atonement. At that point, still unregenerate, the evangelical view says that we have a choice to either receive Gods grace or reject it. The ball is in our court, so to speak. In fact, the evangelical view says that the ball has to be in our court to have any meaning.
The Reformed view says that sin is even more pervasive in our nature. The Reformed view says that we do indeed have free will¼but sin so pervades our nature that left to our own, we will never choose God. Even though man is free to make choices, mans lack of desire for Christ will mean he never, of his own free will, and in his unregenerate state, chooses Christ. Jonathan Edwards defined Free Will as the ability to choose what we want. Edwards also says The will always chooses according to its strongest inclination at the moment. Left with our sin nature intact, our strongest inclination will always be away from God; therefore, an unregenerated man will never choose God.
Lets take a look at what scripture has to say about man in an unregenerate state.
Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me. Psalm 51:5
Even from birth the wicked go astray;
from the womb they are wayward and speak lies. Psalm 58:3
The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done. Gen 8:21
(This is not a hypothetical evil that may be in some mens hearts. God says here that every inclination of all mens hearts are evil from childhood.)
This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead. Ecclesiastes 9:3
The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it? Jeremiah 17:9
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. John 3:19
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14
(Notice, the man without the Spirit...or an unregenerate man...does not accept the things of God.)
So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more. Ephesians 4:17-19
To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. *** 1:15
...the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. Romans 8:7-8
(The King James and New King James versions phrase this the carnal mind is enmity towards God. Think about that the next time you hear the phrase carnal Christian.)
Lets think about this for a minute. The unregenerate person is sinful, wayward, lying, having every inclination towards evil, mad, loving of darkness, rejecting of the things of God, considering the things of God as foolishness, hardened, insensitive, corrupt, and hostile towards God. Why would such a person even want anything to do with God?
Many Scriptures will support this: Gen. 6:5, 8:21; Ecc. 9:3; Jer. 17:9; Mk. 7:21-23; Jn. 3:19; Ro. 3:9-12, 8:7-8; 1 Cor. 2:14; Eph. 4:17-19, 5:8; ***. 1:15, and others.
(An interesting note is that non-Reformed people use these verses all the time to indicate fallen mans state, but they dont take the pervasiveness as far as the Scriptures indicate.)
Non-Reformed views say that once we have decided for Christ, God regenerates our spirit and we are born again. They say faith precedes regeneration. Then there is a split here between those who think this salvation can be lost and those who say this salvation is secure forever. To be honest, I dont see how those who have the typical evangelical view can see that salvation is ever secure on this side of heaven. If salvation ultimately comes down to our choice for God or not, they say it is an irrevocable decision. But if our freedom of choice is so vital in the process, why would that choice get taken away after weve decided for God? The view of UCES (or what my non-Reformed AG missionary friend calls UnConditional Eternal Security, and what everybody else calls Once Saved, Always Saved) is one of the most inconsistent views in Christendom, in my opinion. If someone is coming from the worldview that Mans Freedom and Free Will are so paramount that God, even in His Sovereignty, will not 'violate' them, then they are going to read scripture through that lens, and they will find all kinds of scriptural support for their position that a Christian can lose his salvation.
The Reformed view says we will never choose Christ until God has regenerated our spirit. It says that regeneration precedes faith. This is why in the Reformed view a truly saved person will never fall away. God has taken our heart of stone and replaced it with a heart of flesh (Ez. 36:26). This is also why the Reformed view says that someone who walks away from the Lord and lives the rest of his life in unrepentant sin was never saved to begin with¼because when God replaces your heart of stone with a heart of flesh, it works every time. God is able to save absolutely those he has chosen and regenerated.
Lets go back to our friend Hal. Remember that at one point in the conversation, he became aware of the truth of the message and saw his lost state and his need for the Savior? The Reformed view says that the only reason Hal has reached this point is because of a work that God has just done in his heart. An unregenerate Hal would never have reached this point. An unregenerate Hal would, of his own free will and by his own choice, have cheerfully gone on denying God. When God changed Hals heart, Hal was now able, of his own free will and by his own choice, to see his need and surrender to the Savior.
RO 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
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