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I was doing confirmation lessons in order to be able to take part in communion. I was about 13. And I realised that everyone was taking it all literally.When did you come to become an Atheist. We’re you a Christian and then transitioned to become an Atheist?
No, It's not. I don't ask for personal details. I'll pass on some limited information about myself to let people know that I have personal experience of any given matter. But it will remain limited. And when I say that no more will be forthcoming, I expect that to be understood and respected.It’s funny that you don’t give details, but demand details from others. Isn’t it ironic?
On a scale of 1 to 10, how difficult is it for you to argue with one person that all this is nonsense and no-one should be doing it. And then arguing with another that there are best practices which should be followed when doing it?No Finland was not the example I first used. I used Europe as the example and included countries who have moved away from Wpath affirmative model. Finland was one of them. They were not THE example but one of many. I don't know what you didn't say Sweden was THE example I originally used.
Well I do actually because Sweden doesn't agree with you. So you can't use them.
But let's look at Finland shall we? Finland continued to allow kids with early childhood dysphoria to have the possibility of medicalization. This despite the fact that their research showed dubious results of it. And they are doing it against the findings of their own reviews. They realize they are EXPERIMENTING on a VERY SMALL subset of children who claim dysphoria. They fully accept that what they are doing is experimenting on kids as research and not because they have come to some conclusion this is the right thing to do. So even they do not agree with you on this.
Unless you are claiming it's being done in Australia and the US as an research experiment on a tiny majority of kids in an experimental clinic.
Ok. Understood, but show others the same respect. I did the exact same thing, but you demanded details from a personal story from me. Hmm sounds like the pot calling the kettle black.No, It's not. I don't ask for personal details. I'll pass on some limited information about myself to let people know that I have personal experience of any given matter. But it will remain limited. And when I say that no more will be forthcoming, I expect that to be understood and respected.
Well let me enlighten you. Jesus says take my bread-my body and eat. We as believers do take it literal. Communion the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Do this in remembrance of me. Does that sound familiar. Whosoever eat my flesh and drink my blood has eternal life. Do your believe in the afterlife? Don’t you want eternal life? Most men do.I was doing confirmation lessons in order to be able to take part in communion. I was about 13. And I realised that everyone was taking it all literally.
Moving into Fowler Stage 4. Congratulations.I was doing confirmation lessons in order to be able to take part in communion. I was about 13. And I realised that everyone was taking it all literally.
I understood you to have been arguing that trans activists were claiming that someone biologically male, could actually become biologically female (or vice versa). I was arguing, in contrast, that trans activists were claiming that the categories of "men" and "women" should be flexible enough to admit trans people, not that they were claiming that a male person literally becomes, biologically, a female person.I "conceded" that they were trying to change the biological meaning of woman or man. That's the wordplay they've engaged in.
We can shape culture, though. We do that all the time, and it's not inherently wrong to do.You can't control people's thoughts....nor should you seek to.
I wasn't speaking only of Australia. But we're still working on equal pay for equal work, so...What rights don't women have to Australia?
We've made more progress here than in some places, but we still have a long way to go.So feminism has no need to exist in your nation?
Abolishing slavery was bad?Take a look at what your faith based ideology has wrought here in the US. It's only hurt everything it's tried to improve.
That doesn't mean it's hypocritical if we disagree.But you cannot both be correct.
I understood you to have been arguing that trans activists were claiming that someone biologically male, could actually become biologically female (or vice versa). I was arguing, in contrast, that trans activists were claiming that the categories of "men" and "women" should be flexible enough to admit trans people, not that they were claiming that a male person literally becomes, biologically, a female person.
If that's not what you were arguing, then I'm afraid your position was unclear. But I still don't think they've changed the biological meaning
We can shape culture, though. We do that all the time, and it's not inherently wrong to do.
I wasn't speaking only of Australia. But we're still working on equal pay for equal work, so...
We've made more progress here than in some places, but we still have a long way to go.
Abolishing slavery was bad?
(NB: there is plenty of American Christianity and its ideology which is quite foreign to my sense of what the church's mission is about. So I'm not going to uncritically agree with everything every Christian does. But I don't buy that there have been no improvements along the way).
As for Marxism, I'm not promoting socialism (despite the American tendency to use that word for anything government-funded), nor am I particularly taking any economic positions, so no, I'm really not taking on board the idea that I'm "serving" Marx.
Again, that was not what I understood you to be saying.They absolutely are arguing against the biological meaning.
Having experienced it myself, I certainly do.So lol there's really no one who believes in the gender pay gap.
To reshaping our society for the full participation and flourishing of women (as well as men).A long way to go at what?
You talked about a faith based ideology, and my faith based ideology is Christianity, and that had a lot to do with abolishing slavery.That's a wild idea....wokism didn't abolish slavery.
It's been a mixed bag. As long as it sees its political imperatives as being about responding to human need, transforming injustice, and so on, it tends to do well. When it starts seeing its political imperatives as being about enforcing personal morality or the like, it tends to get far messier.If you want to claim that Christianity has largely been a positive political force, you've been arguing on the wrong side of the discussion on this thread.
I would have thought Marxism would have been defined by the writings of Marx.Marxism changes depending upon the person promoting it.
Again, that was not what I understood you to be saying.
Having experienced it myself, I certainly do.
To reshaping our society for the full participation and flourishing of women (as well as men).
You talked about a faith based ideology, and my faith based ideology is Christianity, and that had a lot to do with abolishing slavery.
It's been a mixed bag. As long as it sees its political imperatives as being about responding to human need, transforming injustice, and so on, it tends to do well. When it starts seeing its political imperatives as being about enforcing personal morality or the like, it tends to get far messier.
I would have thought Marxism would have been defined by the writings of Marx.
I thought you were claiming that trans activists were claiming that a person could actually become biologically a person of the other sex. If that's not what you meant, I'm sorry, but it really wasn't clear.Which clearly demonstrate the desire to deny biological sex.
Of course I didn't, because I knew the backlash would be worse than putting up with it.I'm sure it's illegal to pay a woman less in your nation just because you're a woman. What happened when you filed a lawsuit?
Feminism - or at least, several schools of feminism, and certainly those I lean towards - would argue that dismantling patriarchy ultimately benefits men as well.Feminism doesn’t care about men and "flourishing" is too vague and subjective a term to mean anything.
Ah, similar to how Calvin wasn't a Calvinist. I would be interested to read a Marxist take on social capital, actually, but right now would consider myself far too ignorant on that front to accept the label "Marxist."Marx famously said "I am not a Marxist". You'd need to understand Das Capital and how Capital can refer to more than money according to later Marxists.
You are either misinterpreted what I by accident or deliberately. Not sure which.On a scale of 1 to 10, how difficult is it for you to argue with one person that all this is nonsense and no-one should be doing it. And then arguing with another that there are best practices which should be followed when doing it?
Just curious...
understood you to have been arguing that trans activists were claiming that someone biologically male, could actually become biologically female (or vice versa). I was arguing, in contrast, that trans activists were claiming that the categories of "men" and "women" should be flexible enough to admit trans people, not that they were claiming that a male person literally becomes, biologically, a female person.
Here's the thing: people who do all those things know - in a bone-deep, gut-deep way that perhaps none of the rest of us know, since we don't live with the physical toll of it - that they can only approximate the biology of the other sex; and that they do so, not so that they "become" the other sex, but so that their bodies are more congruent with their own sense of identity.What do you think they are doing? When a trans person takes hormones what are they trying to become? How about when they obtain surgeries what are they trying to become? When they cut off their penis create a vagina what are they trying to become? When they sew on a fake penis and cut their breast off what are they trying to become?
Logical. Personally I as a male have always shuddered at the thought of intimacy with a male yet I still have good male and female friends. It is in my nature to feel so since I was old enough toknow about such things. Who is to say it is any different for those who (in their inner nature) shudder at the thought of intimacy with the opposite gender? As to why some gender swap (many men are happy to remain effeminate without a thought of homosexuality and the reverse for women holds true) must somehow be connected to more than just aligning with their feminine or butchy inner selves, even though some who swap may still pursue what previously was their own sex. There is a lot more to this than what appears on the surface. I wonder if they will find happiness when the body is no longer an issue?Here's the thing: people who do all those things know - in a bone-deep, gut-deep way that perhaps none of the rest of us know, since we don't live with the physical toll of it - that they can only approximate the biology of the other sex; and that they do so, not so that they "become" the other sex, but so that their bodies are more congruent with their own sense of identity.
I have sometimes wondered how things will be different for them in the resurrection. Clearly the distress will be gone, but apart from that...?I wonder if they will find happiness when the body is no longer an issue?
If I asked and you wished not to divulge any personal details then that's an end to it.Ok. Understood, but show others the same respect. I did the exact same thing, but you demanded details from a personal story from me. Hmm sounds like the pot calling the kettle black.
Yeah, how will they identify then when all that is gone? Perhaps the focus should be on that for all of us now. We are not our vessels.I have sometimes wondered how things will be different for them in the resurrection. Clearly the distress will be gone, but apart from that...?
That's very interesting. I hadn't come across that before.Moving into Fowler Stage 4. Congratulations.
Stage 4: Individuative-Reflective Faith
In Brief: The tacit system of the previous stage comes under critical scrutiny. Responsibility for making decisions about one’s goals and values, previously invested in others, is now taken into on…knownunknown.wordpress.com
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