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Try calling Dave a man when Dave is a woman still with woman parts. Except Dave had her breasts removed to make her happy and she isn't. But you think it's wonderful.So there's this person called Dave. Which is a guy's name. He dresses like a man. You refer to him as a man. His father and you both refer to him as your friend's son. No doubt his father uses 'he' and 'him' in referring to him in the third person. But you refuse to do that.
I'll have a think for a few minutes to see if there's anything more nonsensical I've read in the forum this week. And gee, we get a lot of nonsense posted so it may take me a while.
You called him a boy, not a girl.Try calling Dave a man when Dave is a woman still with woman parts.
You don't understand gender so I'll not waste my time trying to explain it.So Dave dresses like a man. Really, have you seen what Dave dresses like? But let's say Dave does. So dress makes you a man?
I didn't make an argument. I simply pointed out the facts of the matter as you related them to me. And the tortuous language you have forced yourself to use is all too nonsensically apparent.The arguments you provide are about as nonsensical as it gets.
Steves article says this.Nope. You have to deal with the following (posted for the 4th time I think). I'm not playing forum hide and seek anymore or Guess-Which-Link-I'm-Quoting-This-Time for the umpteenth time.
New research shows overwhelming support among Australians on trans equality - Equality Australia
'78% of Australians agree that trans people deserve the same rights and protections as other Australians...Only 7% of Australians actively disagree with this sentiment.' "
Where?You called him a boy, not a girl.
I'm afraid you are the one that doesn't understand gender. Especially if you think what a person wears makes them a man or woman.You don't understand gender so I'll not waste my time trying to explain it.
Okay then then you points or whatever you are trying to do are about as nonsensical as it gets. Especially if you think names and clothing determine men/women.didn't make an argument. I simply pointed out the facts of the matter as you related them to me. And the tortuous language you have forced yourself to use is all too nonsensically apparent.
That's incorrect. The ABC poll he linked to himself said that 80% of Australians have no problem with pronouns.Your article doesn't address the speech issue at all. I think the best either of you could say is that Aussies appear to be split on the pronoun debate regarding free speech.
Your still missing the point of the research. There would be no moral reasoning if we did not have a moral sense to make morality matter that we should reason about it.
Toddlers have a sense of justice and want just outcomes for others. That some situations require more complex reasoning doesn't change the fact that our basic moral sense which has to already be there causes us to seek that more complex justice. Without it there would be no justic and no morality.
No complex moral situations have nothing to do with why morality matters in the first place. Basis means the moral sense.
Its the reason why we are moral in the first place. Teens lack complex moral reasoning, some adults lack complex moral reasoning and some people such as with autism lack complex moral reasoning. But they still sense when somethings wrong. Complex reasoning and rationalisation may lead to deny morality. So rationality is not morality but rather an attempt to determine the facts around a moral.
It is hard to conceive of a moral system that didn’t have, as a starting point, these empathetic capacities.
As David Hume argued, mere rationality can’t be the foundation of morality, since our most basic desires are neither rational nor irrational.
To have a genuinely moral system, in other words, some things first have to matter, and what we see in babies is the development of mattering.
The Moral Life of Babies (Published 2010)
The same moral 'Mattering' is found in adults.
The babies’ experiences might be cognitively empty but emotionally intense, replete with strong feelings and strong desires. But this shouldn’t strike you as an altogether alien experience: while we adults possess the additional critical capacity of being able to consciously reason about morality, we’re not otherwise that different from babies — our moral feelings are often instinctive.
The Moral Life of Babies (Published 2010)
Yes empathy can even lead to acting immoral because its an emotion. But empathy as an emotion can also lead to being moral when it is tethered with justice, fairness, kindness, compassion and alturism which are not emotions but moral principles for which we make judgements over.
A list of basic morals would include: An understanding that helping is morally good, and that harming, hindering, or otherwise thwarting the goals of another person is morally bad. A rudimentary sense of justice—an understanding that good guys should be rewarded and bad guys should be punished. An initial sense of fairness—in particular, that there should be an equal division of resources. And alongside these principles are moral emotions, including empathy, compassion, guilt, shame, and righteous anger.
The Moral Life of Babies
Yes as mentioned above empathy is not the moral but the sense of someone elses pain.
That is what makes morality matter and causes us to want justice and kindness for others.
But justice for example is a moral principle for which we can make judgements about.
That emotions that come with morality can trick us doesn't negate that it doesn't trick us when it comes to qualifying those emotions with moral principles.
If we are angry at someone and are unjust towards them as a result this goes against the moral principle that everyone deserves justice. That is why feelings alone cannot determine morality.
Interestingly, brain circuits that are involved in discerning another’s pain overlap brain circuits involved with moral reasoning, emotions, and decision making.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2018.01863/full
Scientists know that certain compassionate feelings and impulses emerge early and apparently universally in human development. These are not moral concepts, exactly, but they seem closely related. One example is feeling pain at the pain of others.
The Moral Life of Babies (Published 2010)
You have to remember as I keep pointing out for babies, toddlers and even adults our moral sense has nothing to do with rationality as far as reasoning out the facts or truth.
Its just there, a sense or gut feelings some call intuition.
Otherwise those without a mental capacity to work out complex situations could never know morality. The sense comes first and that gives us reason to reason about moral situations.
Sorry I was waiting for your reply before I bothered. Anyway ehere we go
Scientists discover that atheists might not exist, and that’s not a joke
Cognitive scientists are becoming increasingly aware that a metaphysical outlook may be so deeply ingrained in human thought processes that it cannot be expunged.
Scientists discover that atheists might not exist, and that’s not a joke
Metaphysical thought processes are more deeply wired than hitherto suspectedwww.science20.com
In his account of atheism, Barrett argues that not believing in God presents people with a number of challenges to the natural cognitive capacities of our minds that must be deliberately overcome. The capacities that are challenged by atheistic belief are a system he calls ‘‘hypersensitive agent detection device’’ (HADD),
theory of mind, moral realism, dealing with death and overcoming native creationism. These are claimed to be intuitive cognitive systems or mechanisms which theism has no problems with but which atheism must deal with. Furthermore, atheists must stage their struggle on the basis of articulated, reflective beliefs which are much less direct and automatic than the unreflective beliefs generated by the intuitive cognitive systems (Barrett, 2004, pp. 109–112).
http://www-tandfonline-com.ezproxy.usq.edu.au/doi/pdf/10.1016/j.religion.2009.11.003?needAccess=true
Isn't that similar to why we have law and order because adults cannot always sort out their disputes despite being adults with a more mature disposition. Just because toddlers need help with most things doesn't mean they don't have a sense of morality. Your making logical fallacies.
The fact is toddlers can make moral judgements and then intervene such as ensuring subjects in the tests are equally treated, that justice is served and even more interesting that the bad guy is punished. This may be quite rudimentary in their behaviours such as helping the helper share things, giving the helper a clap or big smile which ignoring and being upset when the bad guy gets away with it. But these same judgements and rudimemntary acts are what become the adult moral behaviour but just more sophisticated and agile.
Do I have to quote you so that you know what you said? It's entirely automatic to use 'he' when referring to someone's son so I know you check every post to make sure one hasn't slipped in. So go check the one where you said he was a boy. Maybe that was a slip up?Where?
As I said, you don't understand or accept the concept of gender so it's a waste of your time arguing about it with me.Especially if you think names and clothing determine men/women.
Now your changing the goal posts.The vast majority of Australians have no problem with transgender people. Just accept that as per the link I gave you.
Heres the straw. You have attributed every possibility as to what and wht I said something except the truth. The ABC link I posted deeid not say anything about pronouns for the 10th time. Prove to me it did. Link the section from your link that you claim is mine with the link address. I bet you don't because you know I am right. You found another link that was not mine and are using that one.And the ABC link you gave said they have no problem with pronouns either. Whether you think you said it, didn't mean to say, were misinterpreted saying it or it's all just a fever dream imaginarium, those are the facts of the matter.
What is gender and how can we know its a true representation like say sex.As I said, you don't understand or accept the concept of gender so it's a waste of your time arguing about it with me.
Nope. You have to deal with the following (posted for the 4th time I think). I'm not playing forum hide and seek anymore or Guess-Which-Link-I'm-Quoting-This-Time for the umpteenth time.
New research shows overwhelming support among Australians on trans equality - Equality Australia
'78% of Australians agree that trans people deserve the same rights and protections as other Australians...Only 7% of Australians actively disagree with this sentiment.' "
The goalposts have always been transgenderism. Stay focussed.Now your changing the goal posts.
The link is in post 2005 just above. You linked to it in post 1709. I've given you that information at least once before. I've linked to it at least three times myself and I've quoted from it, which I've also done at least three or four times before. I mean, what else could be expected from me....The ABC link I posted deeid not say anything about pronouns for the 10th time. Prove to me it did.
Good Lord, Steve. We're 2000+ plus posts into a thread that's been discussing transgenderism almost from the get go. I think it's a little late to start asking how we determine gender. I mean, you have got to be kidding me.What is gender and how can we know its a true representation like say sex.
You called him a boy, not a girl.
You don't understand gender so I'll not waste my time trying to explain it.
And the tortuous language you have forced yourself to use is all too nonsensically apparent.
Then you should be able to easily tell me how we determine gender as something real that needs protecting. Is there a test like with sex. Can you tell me.Good Lord, Steve. We're 2000+ plus posts into a thread that's been discussing transgenderism almost from the get go. I think it's a little late to start asking how we determine gender. I mean, you have got to be kidding me.
double postWhat is gender and how can we know its a true representation like say sex.
Nope. If you don't understand it then you have no right arguing against it. Do your homework. I'm not here to educate you.Then you should be able to easily tell me how we determine gender as something real that needs protecting. Is there a test like with sex. Can you tell me.
No they have not. You said I was only talking about trans and pronouns when you injected yourself in the discussion. If you were to have checked the same posts (1,709) and the ones leading up to post 1,709 you would have seen this was not the case and was actually about Trans and Woke ideology in general, political correctness, cancel culture and identity politics and that is what I posted a link on political correctness and identity politics. But you created a strawman by misrepresenting what I said by not reading the previous posts.The goalposts have always been transgenderism. Stay focussed.
The link is in post 2005 just above. You linked to it in post 1709. I've given you that information at least once before. I've linked to it at least three times myself and I've quoted from it, which I've also done at least three or four times before. I mean, what else could be expected from me....
Deal with it as you see fit.
I do understand it. I was seeing how you understood it. Gender identity is a subjective sense of self which may change on a weekly basis depending on how one feels at the time. Its a spectrum so it could be any number of subjective identities. I also like Anna's reply that nobody understands gender.Nope. If you don't understand it then you have no right arguing against it. Do your homework. I'm not here to educate you.
I'm not the least bit interested. The links show what Australians think of transgender people and show what they think of using pronouns. Again, deal with it as you see fit.So clearly I was talking about the greater ideological thinking which includes PC, CC and IP ...
It also should be noted that despite the majority saying that Trans people should have access to treatment that supports their subjective gender identity that the only real opinion that counts, the proferssional health carer opinion states that Trans Affirmative and Transitioning treatment is unscientific and harmful in the long run.Well that settles it...
- There is also strong support for the availability of health services for transgender patients (75%), the right to feel safe no matter the gender, how people dress or their name (77%), and not allowing doctors to refuse treatment, or ridicule, a patient who is transgender (78%).
If the doctor can't refuse treatment....what's the point of the doctor? Just have vending machines with pills in em lol.
You do understand that doctors probably wanted that last question thrown in....hoping to get legislation to follow. That way....they aren't liable for anything.
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