When to interpret literally and when not to!

[thebesttrees]

When would you interpret the Bible literally?

An example would illustrate the point:

2 KINGS 2:23-25

23 Elisha went from that city to Bethel. He was walking up the hill to the city, and some boys were coming down out of the city. They began making fun of him. They said, “Go away, you bald-headed man! Go away, you bald-headed man!”
24 Elisha looked back and saw them. He asked the LORD to cause bad things to happen to them. Then two bears came out of the forest and attacked the boys. There were 42 boys ripped apart by the bears.


What do you see here?

A lesson to illustrate that children need to respect the elders

OR

a God full of wrath who kills children

And based on your answer, what are your criteria to interpret the Bible literally?

 

[ebia]

When would you interpret the Bible literally?

An example would illustrate the point:

2 KINGS 2:23-25

23 Elisha went from that city to Bethel. He was walking up the hill to the city, and some boys were coming down out of the city. They began making fun of him. They said, “Go away, you bald-headed man! Go away, you bald-headed man!”
24 Elisha looked back and saw them. He asked the LORD to cause bad things to happen to them. Then two bears came out of the forest and attacked the boys. There were 42 boys ripped apart by the bears.

What do you see here?

A lesson to illustrate that children need to respect the elders

OR

a God full of wrath who kills children

And based on your answer, what are your criteria to interpret the Bible literally?

There are no mechanistic algorithms for determining that for any non-trivial text.

 

[thebesttrees]

There are no mechanistic algorithms for determining that for any non-trivial text.

How can you say that? If we apply one set of rules to interpret one verse, we should be able to apply the same set of rules to interpret any verse. One cannot pick and choose the rules and the verses!

Now tell me what is your understanding of these three verses ONLY and what ALGORITHM or RULE did you apply to arrive at your understanding?

 

[ebia]

How can you say that? If we apply one set of rules to interpret one verse, we should be able to apply the same set of rules to interpret any verse. One cannot pick and choose the rules and the verses!

Now tell me what is your understanding of these three verses ONLY and what ALGORITHM or RULE did you apply to arrive at your understanding?

Human language isn't as simplistic as that, except at its most trivial. Scripture is far from trival.

There is no straightforward algorithm in the way you are requesting.

 

[thebesttrees]

Human language isn't as simplistic as that, except at its most trivial. Scripture is far from trival.

There is no straightforward algorithm in the way you are requesting.

You forgot to answer the question:

Did God murder those kids?

 

[Johnnz]

God did tell the Israelites to wipe out whole groups of people. God also did that directly with the flood.

John
NZ

 

[hedrick]

How can you say that? If we apply one set of rules to interpret one verse, we should be able to apply the same set of rules to interpret any verse. One cannot pick and choose the rules and the verses!

Now tell me what is your understanding of these three verses ONLY and what ALGORITHM or RULE did you apply to arrive at your understanding?

My question would be: if you use this approach in an English literature course, how would you do? The Bible has almost as much variation as a typical literature course.

Many years ago I did artificial intelligence research. At the time I was pretty well convinced that to understand text you pretty much had to be trying to duplicate the author's thinking. The text gives hints, but isn't enough to let you understand his thinking if you don't have a certain sympathy with it. This is why Protestants have always said that in order to understand Scripture you need the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

My sense is that in the part of the Bible where that story appears, the authors quite probably saw this as a divine punishment. Some interpretations today see it as punks getting their due, but I suspect it's a failure to respect the office of Prophet, which is really quite a big deal in the Bible. If you look carefully at how prophets were regarded, you'll see that at times they act pretty much for God. So that act was close to blasphemy.

Normally exegesis involves several levels of thought. The first is moderately objective (though people still disagree). It asks what the original authors thought. I believe they thought it was a divine punishment. The next level starts to ask what it means to us. I don't see any need to challenge the literal accuracy of the story. Such an event may well have happened. I do, however, doubt that God actually punishes kids who insult a prophet by instant death, even if they're young adult punks. Some people speculate that they intended violence, but I don't think the text has much to imply that.

Why don't I think God strikes punks dead? Because he doesn't, and the Bible doesn't by and large say that he does. Might he have done it once as an object lesson? It's possible. But color me skeptical.

 

[hedrick]

God did tell the Israelites to wipe out whole groups of people. God also did that directly with the flood.

At least they thought he did.

 

[BrandonLParks]

When would you interpret the Bible literally?

An example would illustrate the point:

2 KINGS 2:23-25

23 Elisha went from that city to Bethel. He was walking up the hill to the city, and some boys were coming down out of the city. They began making fun of him. They said, “Go away, you bald-headed man! Go away, you bald-headed man!”
24 Elisha looked back and saw them. He asked the LORD to cause bad things to happen to them. Then two bears came out of the forest and attacked the boys. There were 42 boys ripped apart by the bears.

What do you see here?

A lesson to illustrate that children need to respect the elders

OR

a God full of wrath who kills children

And based on your answer, what are your criteria to interpret the Bible literally?

Let me give you a straight forward answer. There are certain clues you can use that will help you determine if passages should be interpreted literally or figuratively. One key is what section of scripture you are reading. The first five books of the bible are known as the law and encompass both historical and poetical sections. The next several books of Scripture encompass the historical section and is mainly literal. Then comes the Poetic section with the books of Psalms, Proverbs, Song of Songs, etc. These books are mainly poetic with little to know literal passages. Finally comes the prophetic section which is also mainly figurative with some literal. A big key as to how to interpret the passage is if it has language that typically sets up a metaphor such as "like" or "as." These passages are figurative. Another key is the indentation of passages that indicate a poetic style. The passage you give is from Kings which is a historical book and does not have any indicators of figurative style. This passage should be interpreted literally. Hope this helps.
-Brandon

 

[ebia]

You forgot to answer the question:

Did God murder those kids?

Is that a good question to ask?

 

[ebia]

Let me give you a straight forward answer. There are certain clues you can use that will help you determine if passages should be interpreted literally or figuratively. One key is what section of scripture you are reading. The first five books of the bible are known as the law and encompass both historical and poetical sections.

Or, better, as Torah - teaching or instruction rather than law.

The following is based on how our bibles are arranged. In the Hebrew bible Judges, Joshua, Samuel and Kings come under prophets. Ruth, Chronicals, Ezra, Nehemiah and Daniel are writings.

The next several books of Scripture encompass the historical section and is mainly literal. Then comes the Poetic section with the books of Psalms, Proverbs, Song of Songs, etc. These books are mainly poetic with little to know literal passages. Finally comes the prophetic section which is also mainly figurative with some literal. A big key as to how to interpret the passage is if it has language that typically sets up a metaphor such as "like" or "as." These passages are figurative. Another key is the indentation of passages that indicate a poetic style. The passage you give is from Kings which is a historical book and does not have any indicators of figurative style. This passage should be interpreted literally. Hope this helps.
-Brandon

Any indentation represents the opinion of the modern translator.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

When would you interpret the Bible literally?

An example would illustrate the point:

2 KINGS 2:23-25

23 Elisha went from that city to Bethel. He was walking up the hill to the city, and some boys were coming down out of the city. They began making fun of him. They said, “Go away, you bald-headed man! Go away, you bald-headed man!”
24 Elisha looked back and saw them. He asked the LORD to cause bad things to happen to them. Then two bears came out of the forest and attacked the boys. There were 42 boys ripped apart by the bears.


What do you see here?

A lesson to illustrate that children need to respect the elders

OR

a God full of wrath who kills children

And based on your answer, what are your criteria to interpret the Bible literally?

The Word of God is spiritual, but the mind of man is carnal.

The events in the Bible literally happened, but they hold a deeper spiritual meaning. This meaning can only be searched out by the mind of the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 

[thebesttrees]

The Word of God is spiritual, but the mind of man is carnal.

The events in the Bible literally happened, but they hold a deeper spiritual meaning. This meaning can only be searched out by the mind of the Spirit.

In other words, God killed those 42 boys to teach us a spiritual lesson! How much farther can this be from the grace and compassion of our Lord! How blind can we possibly we to not see this as a beautiful story/parable and not where our compassionate God resorting to murder to teach us a lesson?!

Come to think of it, it is not blindness! It is rather a fear that if this is not to be taken literally, then what else in the Bible cannot be taken literally? It is a baseless pattern of thinking that over centuries and many generations has been instilled into us that the Word of God is to be taken literally no matter what!

 

[Fireinfolding]

The Word of God is spiritual, but the mind of man is carnal.

The events in the Bible literally happened, but they hold a deeper spiritual meaning. This meaning can only be searched out by the mind of the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Hey, how would you catch "Elisha" (who followed after Elijah) and who they might have represented and the number 42 there, I know you have at least looked at this.

Says Elisha looked back and cursed, and it speaks of John going forth in the Spirit and power of Elijah to turn the hearts of "the children" to the fathers, but also (right there) speaks of "lest I smite the land with a curse" whereas in the above it speaks of "the children of the city" (42 specifically) and two bears out of the forest.

Well, because the number 42 is shown in scripture and was curious how the prophecy of Elijah (and children) followed by Elisha (the cursing that followed) could be shown elsewhere by some means.

Dont make me regret asking

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

In other words, God killed those 42 boys to teach us a spiritual lesson! How much farther can this be from the grace and compassion of our Lord! How blind can we possibly we to not see this as a beautiful story/parable and not where our compassionate God resorting to murder to teach us a lesson?!

Come to think of it, it is not blindness! It is rather a fear that if this is not to be taken literally, then what else in the Bible cannot be taken literally? It is a baseless pattern of thinking that over centuries and many generations has been instilled into us that the Word of God is to be taken literally no matter what!

Yes it literally happened, and yes it was given for our edification as a sign. Besides the Lord will have mercy on whom he will have mercy.

This same sign of the 42 slain was also given to us in Jehu a righteous man of God much like Elisha.

2 Kings 10:13-14

King James Version (KJV)

13 Jehu met with the brethren of Ahaziah king of Judah, and said, Who are ye? And they answered, We are the brethren of Ahaziah; and we go down to salute the children of the king and the children of the queen.
14 And he said, Take them alive. And they took them alive, and slew them at the pit of the shearing house, even two and forty men; neither left he any of them.

Did Jehu do according to the Lord's will?

2 Kings 10:30;"And the Lord said unto Jehu, Because thou hast done well in executing that which is right in mine eyes, and hast done unto the house of Ahab according to all that was in mine heart, thy children of the fourth generation shall sit on the throne of Israel.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Hey, how would you catch "Elisha" (who followed after Elijah) and who they might have represented and the number 42 there, I know you have at least looked at this.

Says Elisha looked back and cursed, and it speaks of John going forth in the Spirit and power of Elijah to turn the hearts of "the children" to the fathers, but also (right there) speaks of "lest I smite the land with a curse" whereas in the above it speaks of "the children of the city" (42 specifically) and two bears out of the forest.

Well, because the number 42 is shown in scripture and was curious how the prophecy of Elijah (and children) followed by Elisha (the cursing that followed) could be shown elsewhere by some means.

Dont make me regret asking

Psalm 2:12
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Were there not 42 generations from Abraham to Jesus? Did not the Lord set before the children of Israel both a blessing and a curse? And those who believed not, and those wicked children who even mocked that Prophet were to be cut off from among the people.

The same blessing and curse was also set before the Nations after the man-child was caught to God. And so it is now, as it was also then, the sign of time was given in the woman who gave birth to man-child, who would also wander the wilderness of sin for 42 months; which was also given for those who would understand.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Psalm 2:12
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Were there not 42 generations from Abraham to Jesus? Did not the Lord set before the children of Israel both a blessing and a curse? And those who believed not, and those wicked children who even mocked that Prophet were to be cut off from among the people.

The same blessing and curse was also set before the Nations after the man-child was caught to God. And so it is now, as it was also then, the sign of time was given in the woman who gave birth to man-child, who would also wander the wilderness of sin for 42 months; which was also given for those who would understand.

Yeah like here

2Ch 36:16 But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till there was no remedy.

Even being nigh to unto cursing is shown here...

Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Of John (the Elijah who was to come)...It says...

Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.


Whereas Elisha followed after Elijah

2Kings 2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

These are somewhat what I am looking to recconcile, and the being nigh to a cursing is shown, as well as "cursed children" and the mocking of the messengers of God within the same type of things, not altogether clear but bits and pieces here and there.

 

[thebesttrees]

Yes it literally happened, and yes it was given for our edification as a sign. Besides the Lord will have mercy on whom he will have mercy.

This same sign of the 42 slain was also given to us in Jehu a righteous man of God much like Elisha.

2 Kings 10:13-14

King James Version (KJV)

13 Jehu met with the brethren of Ahaziah king of Judah, and said, Who are ye? And they answered, We are the brethren of Ahaziah; and we go down to salute the children of the king and the children of the queen.
14 And he said, Take them alive. And they took them alive, and slew them at the pit of the shearing house, even two and forty men; neither left he any of them.

Did Jehu do according to the Lord's will?

2 Kings 10:30;"And the Lord said unto Jehu, Because thou hast done well in executing that which is right in mine eyes, and hast done unto the house of Ahab according to all that was in mine heart, thy children of the fourth generation shall sit on the throne of Israel.

And what was the crime of these brothers of Ahaziah?

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

And what was the crime of these brothers of Ahaziah?

To get the whole picture you would probably need to backtrack to what the Lord prophesied through Elijah.

2 Kings 10:10
Know now that there shall fall unto the earth nothing of the word of the LORD, which the LORD spake concerning the house of Ahab: for the LORD hath done that which he spake by his servant Elijah.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

In other words, God killed those 42 boys to teach us a spiritual lesson! How much farther can this be from the grace and compassion of our Lord! How blind can we possibly we to not see this as a beautiful story/parable and not where our compassionate God resorting to murder to teach us a lesson?!

Come to think of it, it is not blindness! It is rather a fear that if this is not to be taken literally, then what else in the Bible cannot be taken literally? It is a baseless pattern of thinking that over centuries and many generations has been instilled into us that the Word of God is to be taken literally no matter what!

Even so they were killed dead.
Here are two other reasons to take God literaly.


Romans 1:20 KJV
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen , being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

\Proverbs 16:4 KJV
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.