When theology and reason collide.

[Saucy]

Very deep subject.

"If you knew that only a few would care that you came, would you still come? If you knew that those you loved would laugh in your face, would you still care? If you knew that the tongues you made would mock you, the mouths you made would spit at you, the hands you made would crucify you, would you still make them? Christ did."

-Max Lucado

It's kinda hard to understand why God would make a creation that He knew would rebel against Him. But when you think about it...when you choose a wife or husband for marriage...do you want someone who has no will of their own? Why don't you just create a robot who will love you and never disobey. You have programmed it, so the love isn't real.

God is love. He wants us to choose Him, just as I'd want my friends or spouse to choose to love me and not be fake or love me because I'm rich.

As for the rebellion itself...it's the sin that causes death and disease. Sin has consequences. We don't like to hear that because in today's world, it's always someone elses fault. We want to live how we want to live and that's pure rebellion and it will cause us nothing but pain and hardship.

Have you ever thought that if mankind followed God's law about sex, saving themselves until marriage, that there would be NO STDs? There would be very few single mothers (except for the cases where the father dies for whatever reason). That marriages might even last longer because couples had a chance to get to know each other and not fall into their lusts. That's why marriages are so broken today. Marriages are forced because the woman gets pregnant or a variety of other reasons that is the cause of sin.

An atheist once asked me why there's hunger in the world. If God is such a good God, wouldn't He stop hunger. Well, there wouldn't be hunger if the richest of the world didn't store up their riches. Imagine Bill Gates with so much flipping money, there's no way he'd be able to spend it in his lifetime. His kids and grandkids couldn't spend it all. My pastor once told me that it would be a waste of time for Bill Gates to bend over and pick up a hundred dollar bill he finds on the ground because the time he takes to do it, he would've made MUCH more than that. That's disgustingly rich.

But imagine how Bill Gates could really change the world if he decided to share his wealth? How many homeless shelters could he build? How many hungry mouths could he feed? We don't like to attack the rich, but just imagine the good they could do if it wasn't for their greed? That's why the bible says it's nearly impossible for a rich man to get into heaven.

I'm not one of those Occupy people, but the richest 1% holds all the world's wealth. They're the reason why there's hungry people. It's not God's fault. There's plenty of food and water for everyone.

Sin exists because of US. We like to blame Satan or others and think that we can do no wrong. Sin is a curse on this planet. As a result of sin, cancer is on the rise, AIDS is on the rise, even natural disasters, greed, death. It's our fault because we don't care about sin. The bible tells us in the last days, the people will start living the wrong way. Like, what's wrong will become right and what's right will suddenly become wrong. We're starting to see it. Tradition Christian beliefs are mocked and attacked. Why? We believe we're following God's word.

It's God that sets the standard for morality. Not man. We want to keep disobeying God and going against HIS standards, but expect to be blessed?? No way! It's not going to happen. When the end times come, as many of us believe we're living in, it will be as in the days of Noah when every thought is evil continuously. It's the age of reason where faith plays no part. We give up the ways of God for our earthly desires. It's happening now and the more it happens, the more death and disease and violence that will happen.

As far as Satan's fall, you have no idea what he lost. He was the greatest of all of God's creations, so beautiful and full of light. He might've had his own thrown and power, which is what gave him a huge head to begin with. His fall was great...greater than any of us could probably imagine. His punishment is severe...he doesn't get a part in salvation. He's done with. He knows where he's headed for all eternity.

But again, even though Satan tempted, it was man's decision. Man could've said, "No." But he didn't. He endulged in every sin, still to this day. There are consequences for sin. That's why we suffer.

 

[Blank123]

But He has revealed them to us, in His word. They are not difficult to understand, though they are sometimes difficult to accept. They only become difficult to understand when people start assuming things to try to make them fit a form that is easy for them to accept.

oh I agree, there is so much He has revealed to us, but people get stuck in their presuppositions and can't think outside of the boxes they've created so things don't make sense. In that case studying, studying, and more studying with an earnest desire to come to the truth even if it means disregarding old beliefs is the only way to understand.

I'm just addressing the whole argument in the OP that "His ways are not our ways" belief as invalid when it comes to understanding why He does choose to do some of the things He does. We will never understand perfectly why He chooses to do much of what He does because we cannot see things through His eyes. We're fallen and flawed creatures. He's perfect.

If God said this to explain to those who could not understand why He was speaking or acting in a way that was incomprehensible to them, then it is a completely valid argument for us to turn to when we simply cannot understand because it reminds us that we can still trust in Him even when He does not make sense.

 

[Saucy]

Exactly. I heard it explained before that we often like to make God into whoever we want Him to be, and usually God becomes a better version of ourselves. We like to throw away the parts we don't like and pretend like God is on our side of the argument. Is God a republican or democrat? How would He vote when it came to the same sex marriage bill? We think He would be on our side of things.

But how can we fully grasp an immortal Being who holds all the knowledge of the universe? He put all the information into a tiny strand of DNA and is greater and larger than the whole universe. For all we know, God holds the universe in His hand and can look into it like a crystal ball.

We too often put God into a box to understand Him, but we can't fathom Him or His ways.

It can be explained best when trying to understand why bad things happen to good people. In MAN'S ways, a child dying is horrible. We can't grasp it any other way. We get angry at God and curse Him and ask, "If God is a good God, then why didn't He save that child's life?" But in reality, God saved that child from a lifetime of pain and suffering. If God were to ask me right now if I was ready to go home and be with Him or live another 100 years on earth, I'd choose to go to Him. God sees EVERYTHING so much differently than we do. What we see as bad, He may see as good.

 

[SnowyMacie]

honestly I don't see why "his ways are not our ways" has to be thrown out the window.

Honestly, I generaly throw that out the window because so many people use this as a cop-out. Just because God is above us doesn't mean we can't at least, try to understand.

 

[Rob_Skellington]

I rarely trust "theology" because it's often formed by men who have limited knowledge of God. I do however trust my experience. When reason does not reconcile cleanly with what I believe I know about God, I adjust what I believe I know about God.

This is how I arrived at the conclusion that God is not "omnibenevolent," meaning He is not good to everyone at all times. Consequently I dismiss sayings like, "God is good, all the time." I also dismiss the idea that God would not directly be involved in the harm and/or death of one of His followers. The Bible routinely not only displays the fact that God stood by while His followers were killed, but He was also directly involved in the deaths of many of His followers (Samson and Jesus are the two examples that come immediately to mind).

 

[Touma]

But here is the thing that I don't understand... If God has destroyed Satan before man fall, man would have never knew sin AND still would have loved God of with our own free will.

 

[Rob_Skellington]

But here is the thing that I don't understand... If God has destroyed Satan before man fall, man would have never knew sin AND still would have loved God of with our own free will.

It's a matter of fact that there are certain things that we will not understand (possibly ever). That's not a cop-out. It's truth. That doesn't mean I don't seek an answer as to why God allows Satan to rule over the Earth. However, I'm not going to hold my breath for an answer, and my faith rests in the fact that God provides a haven from Satan in the world's current condition.

It's quite possible that God allows Satan to live simply because He wants people to turn to Him. I don't break my brain trying to figure that one out, because--as I said--His grace, which includes the haven He provides, is sufficient.

 

[nhisname]

Christianity is sometimes very hard for me to accept. There are a lot things in Scripture that simply don't make sense. Inb4, God's ways are not our ways. His thinking not our thinking. God works in mysterious ways. Those don't work for me. I believe that if we are made in God's likeness, and we are rational beings, then God is a rational being who does things for a purpose.



In Western Christianity we are taught a few things. I'll make a list of them.

* God is all powerful, all present, and all knowing.
* God is holy. His holiness requires Him to punish evil.
* Sin and evil entered the world because of the disobedience of Adam and Eve (if you believe a literal interpretation of Genesis)
* Before Adam and Eve sinned, Satan/Devil/Lucifer rebelled against God and was cast to earth.

So far, we all believe this right?

Here is my issue. If God is all knowing, then He knew that Satan would rebel against Him. Why would God create Satan with the ability to sin? Why would he create him at all?

God has a purpose for everything. We don't understand the way God thinks so we can't comprehend the way he does things. All he asks is that we have faith in his decisions for us not an easy thing to do because of our pride. We like to be in contol of our own stuff. That's what got Satan in trouble. He was created the most beautiful,smartest, most talented musically of any of the angels. But God had a plan.

Further, if God is Holy and requires justice, why didn't he punish Satan right after the rebellion. Surely God is powerful enough to bound Satan. So why didn't He? Why would he allow Satan to be unleashed upon the world to cause havoc, pain, death, and sorrow?
Satan fits in to Gods plans for us. He uses sin as a means to discipline, test, strenghthen our faith. If he made everything holy we would be just like his angels. He wants us to make the choice to freely love him and love him the way we should.

John Piper claims that the ultimate goal of creation is worship. We are to enjoy God. That is why he made us...To worship Him. He also claims that God seeks to see his glory displayed through punishing sin and redeeming sinners.

A lot of Christians believe this to be true. God is glorified when a sinner goes to hell, because of God's holiness, and is glorified when a Saint is redeemed because of God's grace.
I think it makes God sad when some ones chooses to go to hell over wanting to live in glory with him.

If God get glory from punishing sin AND redeeming other sinners, then why wouldn't he have 1) Punished Satan at the beginning (fulfilling his Holy and Righteous Wrath) which would 2) Allow man to never have sinned which leads to 3) all of mankind worshiping God and never knowing sin, pain, death, hurt, sorrow...
God made us for fellowship. He gave us freewill so we would choose to love him freely. Not because we have to but because we want to. If we never feel the pain,hurt, heartache how will we ever know what it means to feel love, or joy,or peace from our savior?

I'd like to see some honest answers to this. Please no "it is beyond our understanding" type of answers.

 

[MacFall]

But here is the thing that I don't understand... If God has destroyed Satan before man fall, man would have never knew sin AND still would have loved God of with our own free will.

No, as I pointed out earlier, man was fully capable of sin without Satan's influence (if Satan ever influenced him at all). Read Paul again. Satan isn't the source of our sin. Our own desires are.

 

[Blank123]

No, as I pointed out earlier, man was fully capable of sin without Satan's influence (if Satan ever influenced him at all). Read Paul again. Satan isn't the source of our sin. Our own desires are.

mmhmm... he planted sinful ideas in Eve's mind and egged her on, but she was the one who acted on them. And Adam wasn't even around when Satan was - he just followed her lead and sinned. Fully aware that what he was doing was wrong.

Hence why they were both punished. Had it all been Satan's fault, God would have been unjust in punishing them.

 

[MacFall]

If the serpent of Eden was indeed Lucifer (which the Bible never says it was). But either way, yeah... it's just plain excuse-making to try to say that Satan is responsible for man's sin, and also an implication that God is unjust (as you pointed out) for punishing man for something that wasn't his fault.

If man actually had no ability to sin before his encounter with the serpent, then the serpent must have created the sinful desire in him. That position would be extremely difficult to defend scripturally.

 

[Nekoda]

If the serpent of Eden was indeed Lucifer (which the Bible never says it was). But either way, yeah... it's just plain excuse-making to try to say that Satan is responsible for man's sin, and also an implication that God is unjust (as you pointed out) for punishing man for something that wasn't his fault.

If man actually had no ability to sin before his encounter with the serpent, then the serpent must have created the sinful desire in him. That position would be extremely difficult to defend scripturally.

With reference to the bolded part - I agree. "Satan made me do it" is not a theological teaching that is widely accepted.

However:

Romans 11:28-32

Teaching that God Himself made you do is much more palatable to many Christians.

This little gem of Pauline Literature portrays a God who cannot have mercy *without* someone else's disobedience. It also (as with Romans 9:18) contradicts Jesus's teaching that those who *are* merciful receive mercy as per Matt 5:7)

I submit that blaming God for your sin is more blasphemous than blaming Satan for it. And that is what Paul teaches you to do.

 

[Touma]

Interesting conversation so far. Thanks everyone for your responses.

 

[Nilloc]

In Western Christianity . . .

I think that's the crux of it right there. Not all Christians even agree on all of the points you listed, such as the Eastern Orthodox. Now I'm far, far from Eastern Orthodxy (I really find a lot of it's teachings silly, no offense EO's), but I think their ideas on sin and the atonement make far more sense than those of Western Christianity. I don't even agree with them completely on that either, but I think they go in a far better direction than the West does with the Penal Substituionary view.

 

[MacFall]

I submit that blaming God for your sin is more blasphemous than blaming Satan for it. And that is what Paul teaches you to do.

Paul teaches that our sin comes from our own desires. Not from God.

 

[SnowyMacie]

No, as I pointed out earlier, man was fully capable of sin without Satan's influence (if Satan ever influenced him at all). Read Paul again. Satan isn't the source of our sin. Our own desires are.

That's true. Satan didn't tempt Adam, Eve did.

 

[Rhamiel]

If the serpent of Eden was indeed Lucifer (which the Bible never says it was). But either way, yeah... it's just plain excuse-making to try to say that Satan is responsible for man's sin, and also an implication that God is unjust (as you pointed out) for punishing man for something that wasn't his fault.

If man actually had no ability to sin before his encounter with the serpent, then the serpent must have created the sinful desire in him. That position would be extremely difficult to defend scripturally.

Revelations 20:2 refers to the devil as the "ancient serpent" tjat os atleast an allusion to the devil being the serpent in the Eden

 

[Nekoda]

Paul teaches that our sin comes from our own desires. Not from God.

I think you mistake him for James, who did teach that.

Paul clearly taught that:

God binds all men over to disobedience (Romans 11:32) - so then, according to Paul - God Himself makes men sin.

He taught that, with reference to the hardening of Pharaoh's heart - all men are, like Pharaoh, subject to God's will in his desire to "make the clay" how the Potter likes - disobedient or obedient - and that to question this is to question God Himself: (Romans 9:14-18). Thus Paul teaches that God actually makes some men evil for His own purposes.

He taught that the law itself, who is given by God Himself is:

- The "strength of sin" 1 Cor 15:56
- Causes sin because of the "opportunity afforded by the commandment" Romans 7:6-8

This is a round about way of blaming God for sin - for God is the Author of the law.

Paul also taught that:

Death comes through one man's sin (Adam) - Romans 5:12.

Since everyone is a physical descendant of Adam - then, according to Paul - you have no say in the matter - for God, in His forknowledge, made you a sinner by reason of being of human descent.

This concept is only found in the Paul's writings. It is foreign to both the teachings of Jesus and Judaism.

If one has a mind full of Paul's teachings in this matter, and fully believes them - there's no doubt in my mind that crying out for mercy from God is rather futile - because the petitioner may actually believe that God made him do it in the first place - through any of the above Pauline writings - thus absolving himself.

 

[Nilloc]

I think you mistake him for James, who did teach that.

Paul clearly taught that:

God binds all men over to disobedience (Romans 11:32) - so then, according to Paul - God Himself makes men sin.

He taught that, with reference to the hardening of Pharaoh's heart - all men are, like Pharaoh, subject to God's will in his desire to "make the clay" how the Potter likes - disobedient or obedient - and that to question this is to question God Himself: (Romans 9:14-18). Thus Paul teaches that God actually makes some men evil for His own purposes.

I haven't read Romans recently enough to be sure, but I typically see chapters 9-11 as Paul's answer for why Israel failed to complete its covenant mission. His point is that Israel's failings were not outside of God's plan; He always planned for Jesus to succeed where Israel failed. I find this reading of having the advantage of following the theme of the first 8 chapters and not suddenly and for no reason switching into some weird discussion of double predestination.

He taught that the law itself, who is given by God Himself is:

- The "strength of sin" 1 Cor 15:56
- Causes sin because of the "opportunity afforded by the commandment" Romans 7:6-8

This is a round about way of blaming God for sin - for God is the Author of the law.

Probably a clever way of saying that people tend to break rules when they're given them. It's more of a psychological observation than a theological belief.

Paul also taught that:

Death comes through one man's sin (Adam) - Romans 5:12.

Since everyone is a physical descendant of Adam - then, according to Paul - you have no say in the matter - for God, in His forknowledge, made you a sinner by reason of being of human descent.

No where does Paul teach the idea that sin is legally imputed through genetics. That view is read back into Romans 5, but its not there. All Paul says is that Adam caused death to come to all men. Think of Adam as letting a monster loose that goes about attacking people. That's a rather good analogy since Paul views sin as a living force (and no not that force ).

If one has a mind full of Paul's teachings in this matter, and fully believes them - there's no doubt in my mind that crying out for mercy from God is rather futile - because the petitioner may actually believe that God made him do it in the first place - through any of the above Pauline writings - thus absolving himself.

You could say the same about Jesus. In Matt. 11:25-26 He thanks the Father for purposely allowing the 'infants' to understand Jesus's message while hiding it from the intellectuals. Maybe Richard Dawkins doesn't believe because God's keeping Him from believing.

 

[MacFall]

Chances are that if someone like Richard Dawkins "believed", he would be a maltheist.