When the Pope is to be taken infallibly

[QuantaCura]

I believe both of those examples are matters of constant magisterium, and not the extraordinary magisterium.

They are not extraordinary dogmatic definitions, but such definitive binding confirmations are still considered an infallible act by the Pontiff. The infallibility willed by God for the entire Church is what the Pope himself receives.

 

[geocajun]

They are not extraordinary dogmatic definitions, but such definitive binding confirmations are still considered an infallible act by the Pontiff. The infallibility willed by God for the entire Church is what the Pope himself receives.

I want to say that I disagree, but maybe I just don't understand what you are saying. Can you elaborate?
Specifically, how is that something which is already infallible by way of the constant magisterium, more infallible due to the pope doing something with that info?

 

[QuantaCura]

I want to say that I disagree, but maybe I just don't understand what you are saying. Can you elaborate?
Specifically, how is that something which is already infallible by way of the constant magisterium, more infallible due to the pope doing something with that info?

A truth can be proclaimed infallibly multiple times. Here, John Paul is speaking for the entire college and definitively confirming that they all have already definitively determined.

I've got to run right now, but check the Catholic Encyclopedia articles on either INFALLIBILITY, POPE, or COUNCIL--in one of them it talks about how some council's have the double-mark of infallibility from the Council itself and from the decrees solemnly proclaimed by the Pope.

In the above from John Paul, there is the same kind of mutual relationship as the Pope is acting as the mouthpiece of the entire unanimous college (the universal magisterium) in a similar way.

 

[geocajun]

No rush, we can pick this up again when you have more time

 

[YourBrotherInChrist]

There are three modes of infallibility possessed by the Church: (1) papal infallibility; (2) conciliar infallibility; (3) ordinary and universal magisterium.

There are two levels of infallibility: (A) de fide credenda; (B) de fide tenenda. In English, truths in category (A) must be believed with divine and Catholic faith, while truths in category (B) must be held with firm and definitive assent.

Pope Pius XII's Munificentissimus Deus is the most recent teaching belonging to (1A). Canonization of saints is an example of the types of teachings in (1B). Ordinatio Sacerdotalis belongs to (3B).

 

[YourBrotherInChrist]

This is the way that Pope Benedict XVI characterized Ordinatio Sacerdotalis (when he was still Cardinal Ratzinger):

In this case, an act of the ordinary Papal Magisterium, in itself not infallible, witnesses to the infallibility of the teaching of a doctrine already possessed by the Church.
​

For the ordinary and universal magisterium, there is no single infallible act of teaching. Instead, each bishop, including the bishop of Rome, teaches the same matter of faith or morals as definitively to be held, and it is the combination of all those teachings, each of which is individually non-infallible, that results in a teaching which is overall infallible.

 

[Angeldove97]

AD, he is infallible because he is teaching us what has already been taught with out error.

he does not make up new stuff to teach us and he can not be wrong... he is merely handing us the faith that Christ left to His apostles 2000 years ago.

He protects that, already given to us faith, from error, he transmits it properly to the Church in each age and he enforces it when he has to and in rare cases he will define it better if it needs to be.

The unique gift his office has is when he is speaking on matters of faith and morals, what Christ already gave to us, he will be prevented from teaching us a error pertaining to it. This has actually happened in history a few times where a pope was stopped miraculous from teaching against the faith.

So, I'm not saying the Pope would EVER do this. But what if one day he wrote something that clearly went against something in the Bible. Would I have to believe in this as well? Are there any kinds of checks and balances?

What bothers me about this is NOT the teachings the come from our Popes--I've read some and they're amazingly beautiful and have helped me spiritually, so I know they're legit stuff. But I don't like being told that I have to believe in this, even if I don't understand or have the faith to believe in it, otherwise I'm sinning.

So if I don't believe that the Pope is infallible, is that a sin? I'm not saying anything about the Pope's teachings, I'm just saying that I would have to read what he is teaching, study it, review it, and see if I can faithfully follow it before deeming it, in my heart, a good teaching.

Also, is the Pope a sinner? Is that allowable to be said?

 

[Angeldove97]

There are three modes of infallibility possessed by the Church: (1) papal infallibility; (2) conciliar infallibility; (3) ordinary and universal magisterium.

There are two levels of infallibility: (A) de fide credenda; (B) de fide tenenda. In English, truths in category (A) must be believed with divine and Catholic faith, while truths in category (B) must be held with firm and definitive assent.

Pope Pius XII's Munificentissimus Deus is the most recent teaching belonging to (1A). Canonization of saints is an example of the types of teachings in (1B). Ordinatio Sacerdotalis belongs to (3B).

See I just have an issue with being told, you have to read this and believe it. I can't just do that.

 

[YourBrotherInChrist]

Well if we believe the majority of the evolution crowd then there was not a literal Adam and Eve.

Unfortunately, this idea, if it's the truth forces our faith to crumble.

Agreed?

Wikipedia has an article that contains excerpts from a large number of Church documents on evolution, if this is something that you are particularly interested in following up on:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_and_the_catholic_church

 

[geocajun]

See I just have an issue with being told, you have to read this and believe it. I can't just do that.

Well it is either that or hell. Which do you prefer? alright just kidding

Truth is, many folks have difficulties with that, and that is why the doctrines provide explanations for them. We aren't simply (and should never be ...) given instruction like "believe this statement or go to hell". That may be something a poor catechist could have said, but in my reading of papal and conciliar documents, the rational behind the teachings is always provided. Even then, it isn't reasonable to expect a sudden agreement out of anyone just for having read it. We all have to struggle and work these things out in our own minds. This is normal, and some call it part of the on-going process of conversion.

 

[Angeldove97]

Well it is either that or hell. Which do you prefer? alright just kidding

Truth is, many folks have difficulties with that, and that is why the doctrines provide explanations for them. We aren't simply (and should never be ...) given instruction like "believe this statement or go to hell". That may be something a poor catechist could have said, but in my reading of papal and conciliar documents, the rational behind the teachings is always provided. Even then, it isn't reasonable to expect a sudden agreement out of anyone just for having read it. We all have to struggle and work these things out in our own minds. This is normal, and some call it part of the on-going process of conversion.

So I'm not a horrible Catholic if I just don't agree with it.... and maybe just can never agree with it in my heart for whatever reason? I am seriously not even trying to tell God no I don't believe this, I just seriously don't understand it and I can't agree with it.

And geo I know you were kidding, but when I see statements around OBOB that are like "do this Catholic thing or go to hell" that really upsets me. I'm a sinner, I won't ever deny that, but when it comes to simply not being able to agree with my Church's faith, it hurts and it makes me sad and depressed. I don't like being told that I'm sinning and not understanding why I'm sinning.

Maybe it's harder since I'm not a cradle Catholic. My boyfriend at the time when I converted was one and he just accepted everything--- I can't do that and it upset me when he couldn't properly explain something to me about the faith. So yes I guess I'm still going through my conversion, even though I'm baptized and confirmed.

Catholic faith is alot harder than most other Christian faiths.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Look at this way Angel..

The Pope takes an old doctrine, puts his stamp on it and now no heretic can argue [within the Church] against that particular doctrine.

SEE?

But the doctrines are already in place... the Pope doesnt make anything new up. The checks and balances are the ancient teachings and the scholars..

So simply put, the best way to look at infallibility is the Pope stamps it unchangable by modernist or heretical views.

And sometimes he makes the language easy to understand. Kind of like converting English into Ebonics for those who would need it.

I hope this helps.
Its simpler than most ppl make it. Protestants think this means he is sinless or perfect. But that is untrue.

He is just putting concrete where heretics might plant sand.

 

[geocajun]

So I'm not a horrible Catholic if I just don't agree with it.... and maybe just can never agree with it in my heart for whatever reason? I am seriously not even trying to tell God no I don't believe this, I just seriously don't understand it and I can't agree with it.

And geo I know you were kidding, but when I see statements around OBOB that are like "do this Catholic thing or go to hell" that really upsets me. I'm a sinner, I won't ever deny that, but when it comes to simply not being able to agree with my Church's faith, it hurts and it makes me sad and depressed. I don't like being told that I'm sinning and not understanding why I'm sinning.

Maybe it's harder since I'm not a cradle Catholic. My boyfriend at the time when I converted was one and he just accepted everything--- I can't do that and it upset me when he couldn't properly explain something to me about the faith. So yes I guess I'm still going through my conversion, even though I'm baptized and confirmed.

Catholic faith is alot harder than most other Christian faiths.

Angel, I don't think you're a horrible catholic.
Everyone is still going through their conversion. Seriously, it is a life long process for all of us. Don't feel alone there. No one is born catholic - we're all baptized and we all spend the rest of our life converting ourselves.

The key is to remember you will never be guilty for a sin that you did not consent to doing. The only exception which I am aware of comes into play when people do not take the proper care to learn the thing. Faith is always seeking understanding. If it isn't, then it isn't a living faith at all. Seeking understanding is inherent to faith being alive.
If you do not understand something today, keep seeking it out. It is your desire to understand it which is evidence of your faith. Not simply your submission to stuff you don't understand.
I wouldn't attempt to measure your catholicity based on anything said around this forum - I think catholics in OBOB can sometimes be too quick to condemn folks who have difficulties in understanding, as if it should all come so easily for you. In my experience with real life catholics, this attitude is specific to OBOB, and isn't found in real-life. Some of the best catholics I know struggle with understanding some things. I've been on both sides of the argument, both condemning those who struggled, and then later struggling myself.
Personally, I think folks who simple accept things without much question, aren't taking it as seriously as those who take a critical look at it before simply accepting it as true.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Maybe it's harder since I'm not a cradle Catholic. My boyfriend at the time when I converted was one and he just accepted everything--- I can't do that and it upset me when he couldn't properly explain something to me about the faith. So yes I guess I'm still going through my conversion, even though I'm baptized and confirmed.

The only thing about cradle Catholics is as an analogy...
It is more difficult for an American adult to learn the Russian language than it is for a Russian newborn to learn the Russian language.

Its not that Cradle Catholics just accept things... its been taught to us young so we have a different [not better] grasp on Catholicism and we understand it.

So dont be discouraged... there are some things even cradle Catholics do not comprehend fully. [Marriage laws and canon laws]

Speaking for myself only.

 

[zhilan]

I was told once that infalliblity is, in a sense, used all the time because anytime someone is declaired a Saint that is an infallible declaration. Is that a correct statement?

 

[geocajun]

I was told once that infalliblity is, in a sense, used all the time because anytime someone is declaired a Saint that is an infallible declaration. Is that a correct statement?

yes, that is correct.

 

[HisKid1973]

yes, that is correct.

Just curious now after that comment(not to start a rabbit trail) being that the Catholic church makes Saints from the saints..Have any saints in the past that were made Saints found out to not be who they portrayed to be. ie things were found out about them..pax..Kim

 

[geocajun]

Just curious now after that comment(not to start a rabbit trail) being that the Catholic church makes Saints from the saints..Have any saints in the past that were made Saints found out to not be who they portrayed to be. ie things were found out about them..pax..Kim

Well the appropriate way to describe someone being declared a Saint, is that the catholic church is only recognizing what has happened. It isn't 'making them a Saint'. There are tons of Saints in Heaven which aren't recognized since there never was a 'cause' for it.
That said, it has been speculated that if the pope were to err, and declare someone a Saint who isn't one, the power of the keys would be invoked, and that person would be freed into heaven -- That isn't doctrine, just some speculation, and it isn't my speculation either

 

[Benedicta00]

Just curious now after that comment(not to start a rabbit trail) being that the Catholic church makes Saints from the saints..Have any saints in the past that were made Saints found out to not be who they portrayed to be. ie things were found out about them..pax..Kim

no, i don't think so.

 

[Benedicta00]

Well the appropriate way to describe someone being declared a Saint, is that the catholic church is only recognizing what has happened. It isn't 'making them a Saint'. There are tons of Saints in Heaven which aren't recognized since there never was a 'cause' for it.
That said, it has been speculated that if the pope were to err, and declare someone a Saint who isn't one, the power of the keys would be invoked, and that person would be freed into heaven -- That isn't doctrine, just some speculation, and it isn't my speculation either

say what?