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When the only choice is sin...

SigurdReginson

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Was the family of the boy you aided a "Christian" family?

According to their facebook profiles, I would say so. They seem to be very rightwing authority driven conservative christians. This has nothing to do with their crimes, though, as I've seen christians like this with normal, loving families. I think they are just severely twisted and messed up individuals.

Now, I have seen in the past how PTSD can manifest into abuse, and the guy is navy, so I suppose that could be where it's coming from. The wife could just be acquiescing to her husband's authority, and she could have just learned to hate the child over the years. That's all just spitballing, though, and I have no real idea what could drive someone to do something like this.

I hope they rot in prison, but the charges they are facing aren't over 6 years. 13 years of torture for their son, and 6 years of jail time maximum for the torturers. In reality they will probably face 1-3 years tops.
 
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SigurdReginson

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I was fortunate in that I was able to join the Coast Guard instead.

Some areas had long waiting lists but I was able to get in fairly quickly before I turned 18 and had to register with the draft board.

My dad wasn't so lucky. He he joined the airforce before he could be drafted, but instead of working on planes like he thought he would do, they had him guarding the airfield by trudging around in the jungles and shooting VC (he was a machine gunner). The airforce wasn't supposed to have ground troops at that time, so he and the rest of his buddies got rifle butts to the face to keep them quiet and to not leak it to the press, the way he tells it.
 
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SigurdReginson

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In that case, I would say he was not sinning by disobeying his father. God's word is meant for parents who are godly and good examples > to obey them by following their good example, not only doing what they say to do.

And she insisted that he do what he vowed to do. But it says she lamented her virginity . . . not loss of life; but she might have understood she was lamenting her virginity because of the fact that she would die.

I consider there was a way to keep her alive, perhaps by substituting a lamb to redeem her. But, still, may be she did not marry, which would be equivalent to not living, as far as that culture was concerned. It does not directly say he killed her. But I admit it is possible, but not what God required . . . in such a case.

But he did vow that whatsoever he first saw, when he returned, this he would sacrifice to the LORD; and I see how he could have meant for the LORD to decide and control what he would see first. So, I would not say he necessarily acted in haste, in case he intended for God to decide and control. God was in control, knowing how things would go.

So, I am open. But I consider God had him do something other than kill her. In any case, he could pray and make sure with God. If he didn't make sure with God, that would have been acting in haste, I think.

Abraham understood that the LORD would resurrect Isaac so Isaac could be used to complete the promise God had already given Abraham > Hebrews 11:17-19. So, yes it is clear to me that Abraham actually did understand that the LORD was telling him to kill and burn Isaac as a sacrifice. But it appears God overruled His own order, to show what He really considers to be right from wrong.
Possibly, the boy did not have a moral compass, about obeying parents. He just was going along because that was all he knew to do, at least to some extent. But then he did escape > however he processed in himself to do that, after going along so long, I don't know. But I trust God delivered him.

But this is the sort of thing which Satan's kingdom can rig, in order to make it look like there is no God. This could, then, be one sample of how evil is so horrible and anti-God and anti-love, that evil has people do stuff like this, in order to make God and love look bad. So, in any case, it is wise not to ever allow evil to decide how we see things.

He stopped Abraham; so He was not approving that.

How does one know? There are people who do not have ways to know, I would say; except, the Bible says God shows things to people > Romans 1:19-20. But Jesus says there are ones who do not know, yet they will receive stripes > Luke 12:48.

What I consider is may be the person does not know about specific items, but still on the overall the person has rejected God; and so the person gets stripes because of rejecting God, but maybe not for what the person did not know. In any case, there is no excuse.

Now, you identify as an atheist; yet here you are busy with a discussion of right from wrong . . . on things which likely would make little difference if all were driven only by evolution. So . . . in case there really is God > this is why you manage to somehow get concerned about morals and good versus evil. Because if evolution was the highest driver, it could be acceptable for a lot of humans to be removed so there would not be such ruin which humans cause. That could be better for survival of humans and other living beings.

But because God has a use for even evil people, and His redemption working, He has managed things so even unbelievers feel very concerned for the well-being of antisocial and destructive people, so we are putting them in prisons and making major sacrifices to keep them.

"where there is no law there is no transgression" (in Romans 4:15).

But a person is still liable for if the person rejects God. Because we are "without excuse", we have in Romans 1:20. One might not be held accountable for not doing a certain law thing, but still how that person is in one's character is going to be evaluated on the day of judgment > Galatians 6:7-8 > speaks to this, I would say. In this life, each of us is becoming more and more how we will be when we die. And then we will reap so much more of this. In a way, each of us will be our own consequence, of how we will be for all eternity. So it is wise to invest in becoming like Jesus!

So, in my opinion, the do's and don'ts of laws is not the first priority.

I think the concern is deeper, in such a case, than do or do not obey the father. You have the case of when the midwives were told by an authority figure to kill all the newborn male Jewish children. And the LORD rewarded them for disobeying the Pharaoh.

I think of Hebrews 2:14-15. This is talking about one of the things which Jesus was accomplishing by dying on the cross >

"Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage." (Hebrews 2:14-15)

So . . . Satan abuses his children with "fear of death".

So, indeed this is wrong. Hebrews 2:14-15, then, I would say, agrees with you!! :)

Thank you for the thoughtful and logical reply. A very interesting read!

As for evolution and why it matters in this context, I'd have to think about that. While I do think evolution is fascinating, I don't really know it that intimately. History was always my main interest, and it is one reason that I went down the road I did towards atheism.

That said, the more I look into evolution, the more it just makes sense. Even how it plays into morals makes sense, since even other animals that are similar to humans exhibit similar behaviors. The more closely to humans (skeletal systems, complex brains, etc etc) an animal is, the more they seem to have moral or intellectual components that are similar to people's. A snail won't weep for their dead, but a raven will. Dogs will show remorse when they do things they know they aren't supposed to.

Human survival is deeper than just "eliminate X humans to ensure survival" I believe, though history has loads of examples of just that thing happening. Genocide is often used and justified through war, and gods are often the ones giving their blessing to such conquests, or even outright demanding it. Even Yahweh commands genocide in such verses as Deuteronomy 20:16.

I think that with the recent advent of Humanism, humanity has fared much better. Wars are at an alltime low. Open slavery is upturned and has been driven underground, and we squash it where it rears it's ugly head. Famine is at an alltime low, as are fatalities due to complications from diseases (even amongst a pandemic). Things aren't perfect, and we can do much better, but that's kind of the point. We try. :D

That said, America is on the cusp of something bad it seems, though this has more to do with power struggles than the advent of humanism, I'd wager. It certainly won't be a bronze age collapse, and I don't think it'll even be on the scale of our country's civil war, but this country is going to shift; something's got to give.

As for unbelievers and morals, I think everyone just wants to live peaceful and happy lives, and we care about other people (which is a trait often shown in pack animals, it seems). Our views on life are subjective, so I wouldn't dare tell someone they are wrong when their entire lives have brought them to the point they are now (and I only have experience living my own life), but I will say that for me happiness and my desire to do what is right burns in the absence of my walk with god. It didn't go away when I stopped being a christian. My part in the world is very tiny, but even though my impact might be tiny, it might mean a lot to someone else. I guess that makes me more of an existentialist than a nihilist. :)
 
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2PhiloVoid

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According to their facebook profiles, I would say so. They seem to be very rightwing authority driven conservative christians. This has nothing to do with their crimes, though, as I've seen christians like this with normal, loving families. I think they are just severely twisted and messed up individuals.

Now, I have seen in the past how PTSD can manifest into abuse, and the guy is navy, so I suppose that could be where it's coming from. The wife could just be acquiescing to her husband's authority, and she could have just learned to hate the child over the years. That's all just spitballing, though, and I have no real idea what could drive someone to do something like this.

I hope they rot in prison, but the charges they are facing aren't over 6 years. 13 years of torture for their son, and 6 years of jail time maximum for the torturers. In reality they will probably face 1-3 years tops.

Well, I agree with you that those parents should face justice. It kind of goes without saying in a case like that, and I think you folks at the hospital did a great job of attempting to aid that child.

However, what doesn't go without saying is that I don't think that either Christianity on the whole or the Bible itself are really to blame for that child's terrible situation. Whatever the causes may have been that produced malevolent behavior in the parents, at least that child had some helpful and good hearted people to help him move forward in a healthier, saner and safer direction.
 
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Confused-by-christianity

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When I was a Christian I asked something similar years ago. My pastor at the time had told me .......
Probably best to get your own answers? Do your own studying? Study Philosophy, theology, biblical scholarship, hermeneutics etc etc and make up your own mind?

If someone is forced to sin in order to avoid their own death, or some other horrible fate, is it still a sin?
In the case presented - I don't think the boy sinned. I don't think sin is just breaking a rule. I think "sin" describes something much more.

I think the point of the law is to give you a concept of guilt. When you understand that you are guilty - you can understand grace, forbearance, forgiveness. From what I can gather - NT Perspective is that the idea of the law isn't to bash people (although it's good for that in the wrong hands) but to ultimately awaken an understanding of God within people. God wants us to understand He is forgiving for example.
Perhaps people have been using the law wrong all this time.??

We live in a world full of grey shades, and the concept of sin seems very black and white cut and dried to me.
Yes - we define a thing (we make a cookie cutter) and then everything that fits in our cookie cutter gets grouped together.
Problem is, our items in the group aren't all identical although we treat them as they are.
Our groupings are useful as they provide a model to think about something - but - we should remember they are not 100% accurate.

Just my opinion. Maybe I'm wrong.
 
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SigurdReginson

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Probably best to get your own answers? Do your own studying? Study Philosophy, theology, biblical scholarship, hermeneutics etc etc and make up your own mind?

I didn't really think for myself much during those years of my life. My heart was wide open to god, but I had shut my brain off to any real deep introspection.

As for now, philosophy and theology are super fascinating for me, but I haven't sought higher education in those things just yet. I would love to in the future, though. Maybe when I get more time and money!

In the case presented - I don't think the boy sinned. I don't think sin is just breaking a rule. I think "sin" describes something much more.

I think the point of the law is to give you a concept of guilt. When you understand that you are guilty - you can understand grace, forbearance, forgiveness. From what I can gather - NT Perspective is that the idea of the law isn't to bash people (although it's good for that in the wrong hands) but to ultimately awaken an understanding of God within people. God wants us to understand He is forgiving for example.
Perhaps people have been using the law wrong all this time.??

I'm not sure people need laws to experience guilt, though. Any transgression against a cultural norm can trigger feelings of guilt. Showing one's ankles in one part of the world may make someone feel guilty, but there are other parts of the world where complete nakedness is every day life with no feelings of guilt at all.

What use does imposing guilt on others have aside from gaining control over them or manipulating them into doing what you want, though?

Yes - we define a thing (we make a cookie cutter) and then everything that fits in our cookie cutter gets grouped together.
Problem is, our items in the group aren't all identical although we treat them as they are.
Our groupings are useful as they provide a model to think about something - but - we should remember they are not 100% accurate.

Just my opinion. Maybe I'm wrong.

Very true. As we learn more about things, we can make more informed decisions that hopefully lead to better conclusions. I was raised in the concept that things as defined in the bible were perfect and flawless - so that cookie cutter explanation for things was above scrutiny. Of course, this was their interpretation of what was written only; all other interpretations weren't "really christian." It turns out reality isn't that tiny or simple.

Since leaving that behind, It's taken work to clear the cobwebs of my own ignorance, and it's been a daunting task. I'm fine with that, though. Intellectual honesty is a pretty wonderful skill to learn in the process, as is identifying when my epistemological views on reality have been skewed and need correcting. "I don't know" is a very honest, and very freeing phrase to be able to say. :D
 
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