When the only choice is sin...

[SigurdReginson]

I would like to start with a trigger warning. This discussion will involve child abuse. The topic might get heated, but I'd like this to be more of a chance for people to voice their own personal perspectives. My understanding of Christianity is limited to the churches of a small handful of denominations from a tiny corner of the world I grew up in. I'd like to expand that, while maybe at the same time duscuss something that's not always sit right in the back of my mind.

I don't want this to be some kind of "gotcha!" topic to make Christian folks look bad, but this is going to be a tough topic that I hope to gain Christian folks' perspectives on. If you think your opinion might not be popular, then I especially want to see what you have to say!

I work in a hospital, and from time to time we see some horrible things. About a week or two ago, a 13 year old boy was brought to the E.R. He looked like a concentration camp victum. he was hunched over like an old man, his legs were bowed, and he has suffered damage that he has to live with for the rest of his life. Skeletal and sunken.

His parents had only fed him toast and lettuce leaves. The rest of his family (including his sibblings) got to eat whatever they wanted, so it wasn't some kind of vegetarian abuse thing. He wasn't allowed to use the bathroom at night, so he was forced to poop and pee in his own room. His dad hooked up a motion sensing camera (like hunters use to track deer in the woods) and forced him to stand in front of it all day long, which is why his legs were bowed. If he moved, it would send a text to his dad so he would know, and he could "punish" him.

I don't know much more than that, but I will say that if the boy hadn't been rescued, he'd probably be dead had that gone on much longer. He looked like he was in rough shape... The only reason he was able to escape that situation alive is because he finally disobeyed his dad and climbed out the window. The neighbors saw him climb out, and they called the cops when they saw the state the boy was in.

Everyone in the hospital was emotional after they saw him. It was disturbing. He was covered in bug bites and smelled like poop and pee. Why would anyone treat any child that way, let alone their own child?

The thing that gets me is that, because the cafeteria was closed, we got him some peanut butter and jelly sandwiches from the cafe. Just some bread and single serving packets of cheap PB&J. He ate 3 of them, some chips, and just a bunch of the junk food they had. He said it was the best thing he'd ever had. One of the folks there told him he didn't have to eat all the things he couldn't before all at once.

The whole point of this story, though, is that the boy obeyed his father. He did what his father said, and it was killing him. It wasn't until he broke the 5th commandment where he was finally able to have a fighting chance. His choices, in my mind, were to sin or to die.

Now, growing up, I was taught there was an age of accountability, but I was never able to find any verses in the bible that reflected that idea. In fact, it seems to me that a child was expected to obey the authority of their father no matter what. Japheth's daughter dutifully obeyed her father when he sacrificed her to god. Isaac did the same when Abraham told him he was going to be a sacrifice for god as well. Children seem to be expected to do what their father asks no matter what, even if it means their death. To do otherwise seems to be something regarded as sinful behavior. Deuteronomy 21:18 - 21 comes to mind.

Now, I understand these are all old testiment examples, and things have changed since Jesus completed the law (not abolished it) with his sacrifice. The thing is, though, breaking god's law is still a sin. Sin is punishable by death. Was the boy who disobeyed and fled for his life from his dad sinning? Was that action he took an act offensive to god?

When I was a Christian I asked something similar years ago. My pastor at the time had told me that yes, things like this are a sin, but that's where Jesus comes in, since his sacrifice obsolves all sin. Matthew 18:6 or Luke 17:2 suggest that harsh punishments are in store for those who cause a child to sin. Why is it a sin in the first place, though?

If someone is forced to sin in order to avoid their own death, or some other horrible fate, is it still a sin? We live in a world full of grey shades, and the concept of sin seems very black and white cut and dried to me.

I guess more than anything, this thread is more of a chance for me to get this off my chest more than anything else. If you folks have bible verses to back your thoughts on the topic, I would appreciate that. Thanks!

 

[Dave L]

I would like to start with a trigger warning. This discussion will involve child abuse. The topic might get heated, but I'd like this to be more of a chance for people to voice their own personal perspectives. My understanding of Christianity is limited to the churches of a small handful of denominations from a tiny corner of the world I grew up in. I'd like to expand that, while maybe at the same time duscuss something that's not always sit right in the back of my mind.

I don't want this to be some kind of "gotcha!" topic to make Christian folks look bad, but this is going to be a tough topic that I hope to gain Christian folks' perspectives on. If you think your opinion might not be popular, then I especially want to see what you have to say!

I work in a hospital, and from time to time we see some horrible things. About a week or two ago, a 13 year old boy was brought to the E.R. He looked like a concentration camp victum. he was hunched over like an old man, his legs were bowed, and he has suffered damage that he has to live with for the rest of his life. Skeletal and sunken.

His parents had only fed him toast and lettuce leaves. The rest of his family (including his sibblings) got to eat whatever they wanted, so it wasn't some kind of vegetarian abuse thing. He wasn't allowed to use the bathroom at night, so he was forced to poop and pee in his own room. His dad hooked up a motion sensing camera (like hunters use to track deer in the woods) and forced him to stand in front of it all day long, which is why his legs were bowed. If he moved, it would send a text to his dad so he would know, and he could "punish" him.

I don't know much more than that, but I will say that if the boy hadn't been rescued, he'd probably be dead had that gone on much longer. He looked like he was in rough shape... The only reason he was able to escape that situation alive is because he finally disobeyed his dad and climbed out the window. The neighbors saw him climb out, and they called the cops when they saw the state the boy was in.

Everyone in the hospital was emotional after they saw him. It was disturbing. He was covered in bug bites and smelled like poop and pee. Why would anyone treat any child that way, let alone their own child?

The thing that gets me is that, because the cafeteria was closed, we got him some peanut butter and jelly sandwiches from the cafe. Just some bread and single serving packets of cheap PB&J. He ate 3 of them, some chips, and just a bunch of the junk food they had. He said it was the best thing he'd ever had. One of the folks there told him he didn't have to eat all the things he couldn't before all at once.

The whole point of this story, though, is that the boy obeyed his father. He did what his father said, and it was killing him. It wasn't until he broke the 5th commandment where he was finally able to have a fighting chance. His choices, in my mind, were to sin or to die.

Now, growing up, I was taught there was an age of accountability, but I was never able to find any verses in the bible that reflected that idea. In fact, it seems to me that a child was expected to obey the authority of their father no matter what. Japheth's daughter dutifully obeyed her father when he sacrificed her to god. Isaac did the same when Abraham told him he was going to be a sacrifice for god as well. Children seem to be expected to do what their father asks no matter what, even if it means their death. To do otherwise seems to be something regarded as sinful behavior. Deuteronomy 21:18 - 21 comes to mind.

Now, I understand these are all old testiment examples, and things have changed since Jesus completed the law (not abolished it) with his sacrifice. The thing is, though, breaking god's law is still a sin. Sin is punishable by death. Was the boy who disobeyed and fled for his life from his dad sinning? Was that action he took an act offensive to god?

When I was a Christian I asked something similar years ago. My pastor at the time had told me that yes, things like this are a sin, but that's where Jesus comes in, since his sacrifice obsolves all sin. Matthew 18:6 or Luke 17:2 suggest that harsh punishments are in store for those who cause a child to sin. Why is it a sin in the first place, though?

If someone is forced to sin in order to avoid their own death, or some other horrible fate, is it still a sin? We live in a world full of grey shades, and the concept of sin seems very black and white cut and dried to me.

I guess more than anything, this thread is more of a chance for me to get this off my chest more than anything else. If you folks have bible verses to back your thoughts on the topic, I would appreciate that. Thanks!

You have a legalistic (incorrect) view of the Ten Commandments. Love keeps the Commandments. Disobedience is sometimes the best way to honor their father and mother. A Christian who refuses to do what they say (I'm an example of that) brings glory to them.

 

[SigurdReginson]

You have a legalistic (incorrect) view of the Ten Commandments. Love keeps the Commandments. Disobedience is sometimes the best way to honor their father and mother. A Christian who refuses to do what they say (I'm an example of that) brings glory to them.

Yah, I guess my Christian experience was more legalistic and authoritarian.

Hmmm... How was disobedience in this case an honor to the father and mother?

As an added: they have been arrested. I've been following what happens to them over the county court records. I've seen their facebooks too. Kind of chilling... They look like normal people. The mother has an etsy account and sells crocheted things. The father is currently serving in the navy. I really hope the judge throws the book at them...

 

[Dave L]

Yah, I guess my Christian experience was more legalistic and authoritarian.

Hmmm... How was disobedience in this case an honor to the father and mother?

As an added: they have been arrested. I've been following what happens to them over the county court records. I've seen their facebooks too. Kind of chilling... They look like normal people. The mother has an etsy account and sells crocheted things. The father is currently serving in the navy. I really hope the judge throws the book at them...

The whole family and extended family disowned me when I refused to go to Vietnam and served as a conscientious objector instead.

 

[SigurdReginson]

The whole family and extended family disowned me when I refused to go to Vietnam and served as a conscientious objector instead.

I think you made the right call.

My dad fought in that war. I never signed up for military service, though. He told me he's glad I never had to see the things he had to. I'm kind of glad, too.

I love our servicemen and women and the sacrifices they make; but it takes a toll and has a cost. I'm not sure wars like the Vietnam war were worth that cost, though.

 

[Neogaia777]

I would like to start with a trigger warning. This discussion will involve child abuse. The topic might get heated, but I'd like this to be more of a chance for people to voice their own personal perspectives. My understanding of Christianity is limited to the churches of a small handful of denominations from a tiny corner of the world I grew up in. I'd like to expand that, while maybe at the same time duscuss something that's not always sit right in the back of my mind.

I don't want this to be some kind of "gotcha!" topic to make Christian folks look bad, but this is going to be a tough topic that I hope to gain Christian folks' perspectives on. If you think your opinion might not be popular, then I especially want to see what you have to say!

I work in a hospital, and from time to time we see some horrible things. About a week or two ago, a 13 year old boy was brought to the E.R. He looked like a concentration camp victum. he was hunched over like an old man, his legs were bowed, and he has suffered damage that he has to live with for the rest of his life. Skeletal and sunken.

His parents had only fed him toast and lettuce leaves. The rest of his family (including his sibblings) got to eat whatever they wanted, so it wasn't some kind of vegetarian abuse thing. He wasn't allowed to use the bathroom at night, so he was forced to poop and pee in his own room. His dad hooked up a motion sensing camera (like hunters use to track deer in the woods) and forced him to stand in front of it all day long, which is why his legs were bowed. If he moved, it would send a text to his dad so he would know, and he could "punish" him.

I don't know much more than that, but I will say that if the boy hadn't been rescued, he'd probably be dead had that gone on much longer. He looked like he was in rough shape... The only reason he was able to escape that situation alive is because he finally disobeyed his dad and climbed out the window. The neighbors saw him climb out, and they called the cops when they saw the state the boy was in.

Everyone in the hospital was emotional after they saw him. It was disturbing. He was covered in bug bites and smelled like poop and pee. Why would anyone treat any child that way, let alone their own child?

The thing that gets me is that, because the cafeteria was closed, we got him some peanut butter and jelly sandwiches from the cafe. Just some bread and single serving packets of cheap PB&J. He ate 3 of them, some chips, and just a bunch of the junk food they had. He said it was the best thing he'd ever had. One of the folks there told him he didn't have to eat all the things he couldn't before all at once.

The whole point of this story, though, is that the boy obeyed his father. He did what his father said, and it was killing him. It wasn't until he broke the 5th commandment where he was finally able to have a fighting chance. His choices, in my mind, were to sin or to die.

Now, growing up, I was taught there was an age of accountability, but I was never able to find any verses in the bible that reflected that idea. In fact, it seems to me that a child was expected to obey the authority of their father no matter what. Japheth's daughter dutifully obeyed her father when he sacrificed her to god. Isaac did the same when Abraham told him he was going to be a sacrifice for god as well. Children seem to be expected to do what their father asks no matter what, even if it means their death. To do otherwise seems to be something regarded as sinful behavior. Deuteronomy 21:18 - 21 comes to mind.

Now, I understand these are all old testiment examples, and things have changed since Jesus completed the law (not abolished it) with his sacrifice. The thing is, though, breaking god's law is still a sin. Sin is punishable by death. Was the boy who disobeyed and fled for his life from his dad sinning? Was that action he took an act offensive to god?

When I was a Christian I asked something similar years ago. My pastor at the time had told me that yes, things like this are a sin, but that's where Jesus comes in, since his sacrifice obsolves all sin. Matthew 18:6 or Luke 17:2 suggest that harsh punishments are in store for those who cause a child to sin. Why is it a sin in the first place, though?

If someone is forced to sin in order to avoid their own death, or some other horrible fate, is it still a sin? We live in a world full of grey shades, and the concept of sin seems very black and white cut and dried to me.

I guess more than anything, this thread is more of a chance for me to get this off my chest more than anything else. If you folks have bible verses to back your thoughts on the topic, I would appreciate that. Thanks!

Just would like to point out that some of those OT examples were examples of a child obeying both their earthly fathers or parents "and God", etc, as their parents were fully obeying God, etc, were not abusing their children like in this example, etc, but in those specific examples in the OT specifically, actually greatly, greatly loved them very very much, etc, and even adored them, etc, which is why it was a sacrifice, etc, but, anyway, if they are not truly Godly (notice I said "truly Godly", etc) (anyway) if they are not truly Godly parents or authority figures, etc, and those ever come into conflict (obeying one over or rather than the other, etc), even and/or especially when it is a child, etc, then that person or that child is to obey God first over even their own earthly parents or authority figures or man that were supposed to and were meant to represent Him to them, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Dave L]

I think you made the right call.

My dad fought in that war. I never signed up for military service, though. He told me he's glad I never had to see the things he had to. I'm kind of glad, too.

I love our servicemen and women and the sacrifices they make; but it takes a toll and has a cost. I'm not sure wars like the Vietnam war were worth that cost, though.

I had early exposure to the antiwar movement and didn't trust anyone over 30, especially the media, as today also. So I thank God for those less than wholesome surroundings. But he used it to get the truth to me. As a Christian, I found those sentiments were basically the same as Jesus taught.

 

[SigurdReginson]

Just would like to point out that some of those OT examples were examples of a child obeying both their earthly fathers or parents "and God", etc, as their parents were fully obeying God, etc, were not abusing their children like in this example, etc, but in those specific examples in the OT specifically, actually greatly, greatly loved them very very much, etc, and even adored them, etc, which is why it was a sacrifice, etc, but, anyway, if they are not truly Godly (notice I said "truly Godly", etc) (anyway) if they are not truly Godly parents or authority figures, etc, and those ever come into conflict (obeying one over or rather than the other, etc), even and/or especially when it is a child, etc, then that person or that child is to obey God first over even their own earthly parents or authority figures or man that were supposed to and were meant to represent Him to them, etc...

God Bless!

Hmm... I wonder if this boy's parents thought they loved him? Their actions certainly didn't reflect that love, if they did.

I will say though, given your thoughts on the subject, how is the child supposed to know that the father is actually obeying god; especially in Japheth's case? God never did command him to do it. He felt obligated to, as far as I remember. Everyone in his community seemed oddly ok with it, too. She even said goodbye to everyone before she was killed.

How is someone supposed to know that an authority figure is or is not acting on behalf of god? It can't just be based on what the character of god is, since human sacrifice isn't part of his character, yet it was actually what he was wanting Abraham to go through with (until he stopped him).

Are you saying that god's law becomes void when a scenerio unfolds in the absense of his direct will, though? In this case, the child was sinless to disobey the father and disregard the fifth commandment? If so, I'd be curious to see a bible verse that reflects that.

As for abuse, I think the fear of death definitely qualifies as abuse.

 

[Neogaia777]

Hmm... I wonder if this boy's parents thought they loved him? Their actions certainly didn't reflect that love, if they did.

Well, in the very few examples in the OT where this happened or was about to happen or occur, etc, we know that the parents did greatly love those children, to the point of practically worshiping the ground they walked on, etc...

I will say though, given your thoughts on the subject, how is the child supposed to know that the father is actually obeying god; especially in Japheth's case? God never did command him to do it. He felt obligated to, as far as I remember. Everyone in his community seemed oddly ok with it, too. She even said goodbye to everyone before she was killed.

I just looked it up, cause I was missing a few details of the story also...?

It seems that Japheth had won a battle or a war, where he must have at least promised God in his heart, or took a vow in his heart, that if he won the battle or war, probably in order to save a lot of people, etc, that he would sacrifice the first thing or person to come out of his house when he got back, knowing that that might be his only one and most beloved child, but also leaving it up to God as well, he didn't want it to be her, cause he loved her more than anything, but it was a way of saying to God if you ask even this of me, I will do it, etc, and God did, and so he did, etc...

The daughter also told her father that he should keep the vow also, etc, even knowing that it was for her to be sacrificed, etc, she did not doubt that her father was a Godly man, and that God had basically commanded it, etc...

But, in the NT, Jesus tells us to not make any vows at all ever now also, etc...

I don't think God does those kind of agreements now anymore, etc...

And it probably would be a sin for us to do it now, now that were in the NC and no longer under the Old, etc...

How is someone supposed to know that an authority figure is or is not acting on behalf of god?

That is the real trick, isn't it...?

It can't just be based on what the character of god is, since human sacrifice isn't part of his character, yet it was actually what he was wanting Abraham to go through with (until he stopped him).

Men in the OT heard from God and obeyed, and they were still under the OT law covenant, etc, things are a little different now, etc...

And Abraham with Issac was a foreshadowing of God and Christ, and Abraham need to "know God", and this, this "feeling", was part of it or that, etc...

Are you saying that god's law becomes void when a scenerio unfolds in the absense of his direct will, though?

God's law is pretty much void now, but God's law also becomes void (under the NC) when it conflicts with His being or character, which we are able to fully know now, but that most of them were not able to in the OT, or when they are or were still under the OC, (even now), etc... (still operating under the OT law covenant now, etc) (still blind to his true character, etc) (only revealed in His Grace, etc)...

In this case, the child was sinless to disobey the father and disregard the fifth commandment? If so, I'd be curious to see a bible verse that reflects that.

Yes, the child did not sin when he did that "now", etc...

As for abuse, I think the fear of death definitely qualifies as abuse.

I don't know if I know what are meaning here, do you mean a parent, or God, putting the fear of death into people, or a child, or what exactly...?

Or who or what are your referring to here, etc...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Well, in the very few examples in the OT where this happened or was about to happen or occur, etc, we know that the parents did greatly love those children, to the point of practically worshiping the ground they walked on, etc...



I just looked it up, cause I was missing a few details of the story also...?

It seems that Japheth had won a battle or a war, where he must have at least promised God in his heart, or took a vow in his heart, that if he won the battle or war, probably in order to save a lot of people, etc, that he would sacrifice the first thing or person to come out of his house when he got back, knowing that that might be his only one and most beloved child, but also leaving it up to God as well, he didn't want it to be her, cause he loved her more than anything, but it was a way of saying to God if you ask even this of me, I will do it, etc, and God did, and so he did, etc...

The daughter also told her father that he should keep the vow also, etc, even knowing that it was for her to be sacrificed, etc, she did not doubt that her father was a Godly man, and that God had basically commanded it, etc...

But, in the NT, Jesus tells us to not make any vows at all ever now also, etc...

I don't think God does those kind of agreements now anymore, etc...

And it probably would be a sin for us to do it now, now that were in the NC and no longer under the Old, etc...



That is the real trick, isn't it...?



Men in the OT heard from God and obeyed, and they were still under the OT law covenant, etc, things are a little different now, etc...

And Abraham with Issac was a foreshadowing of God and Christ, and Abraham need to "know God", and this, this "feeling", was part of it or that, etc...



God's law is pretty much void now, but God's law also becomes void (under the NC) when it conflicts with His being or character, which we are able to fully know now, but that most of them were not able to in the OT, or when they are or were still under the OC, (even now), etc... (still operating under the OT law covenant now, etc) (still blind to his true character, etc) (only revealed in His Grace, etc)...



Yes, the child did not sin when he did that "now", etc...



I don't know if I know what are meaning here, do you mean a parent, or God, putting the fear of death into people, or a child, or what exactly...?

Or who or what are your referring to here, etc...?

God Bless!

I feel like I might need to explain His (God's) character only being revealed in His Grace, etc...?

His Grace is His better side of Him (God) (God in the OT, etc) and it is His Mercy, and long suffering loving kindness, and Forgiveness, and Love, etc, those things, and others like them, are His "Grace", etc, and is the better side or better half of Him, and is only fully revealed, well, sometimes and sometimes just a little bit in the OT, etc, but is mainly shown and/or expressed now only primarily in the person of Jesus Christ now, etc... So, before that or Him, it wasn't really known or revealed yet, etc... But, now that it is, when God's law, or an obligation of God's law, comes into conflict with His now fully revealed moral character in the person of Jesus Christ, then we are to, as they say, "follow our hearts or moral conscience and disobey God's law when it comes into conflict with His now fully revealed true moral character", etc...

God Bless!

 

[BNR32FAN]

I would like to start with a trigger warning. This discussion will involve child abuse. The topic might get heated, but I'd like this to be more of a chance for people to voice their own personal perspectives. My understanding of Christianity is limited to the churches of a small handful of denominations from a tiny corner of the world I grew up in. I'd like to expand that, while maybe at the same time duscuss something that's not always sit right in the back of my mind.

I don't want this to be some kind of "gotcha!" topic to make Christian folks look bad, but this is going to be a tough topic that I hope to gain Christian folks' perspectives on. If you think your opinion might not be popular, then I especially want to see what you have to say!

I work in a hospital, and from time to time we see some horrible things. About a week or two ago, a 13 year old boy was brought to the E.R. He looked like a concentration camp victum. he was hunched over like an old man, his legs were bowed, and he has suffered damage that he has to live with for the rest of his life. Skeletal and sunken.

His parents had only fed him toast and lettuce leaves. The rest of his family (including his sibblings) got to eat whatever they wanted, so it wasn't some kind of vegetarian abuse thing. He wasn't allowed to use the bathroom at night, so he was forced to poop and pee in his own room. His dad hooked up a motion sensing camera (like hunters use to track deer in the woods) and forced him to stand in front of it all day long, which is why his legs were bowed. If he moved, it would send a text to his dad so he would know, and he could "punish" him.

I don't know much more than that, but I will say that if the boy hadn't been rescued, he'd probably be dead had that gone on much longer. He looked like he was in rough shape... The only reason he was able to escape that situation alive is because he finally disobeyed his dad and climbed out the window. The neighbors saw him climb out, and they called the cops when they saw the state the boy was in.

Everyone in the hospital was emotional after they saw him. It was disturbing. He was covered in bug bites and smelled like poop and pee. Why would anyone treat any child that way, let alone their own child?

The thing that gets me is that, because the cafeteria was closed, we got him some peanut butter and jelly sandwiches from the cafe. Just some bread and single serving packets of cheap PB&J. He ate 3 of them, some chips, and just a bunch of the junk food they had. He said it was the best thing he'd ever had. One of the folks there told him he didn't have to eat all the things he couldn't before all at once.

The whole point of this story, though, is that the boy obeyed his father. He did what his father said, and it was killing him. It wasn't until he broke the 5th commandment where he was finally able to have a fighting chance. His choices, in my mind, were to sin or to die.

Now, growing up, I was taught there was an age of accountability, but I was never able to find any verses in the bible that reflected that idea. In fact, it seems to me that a child was expected to obey the authority of their father no matter what. Japheth's daughter dutifully obeyed her father when he sacrificed her to god. Isaac did the same when Abraham told him he was going to be a sacrifice for god as well. Children seem to be expected to do what their father asks no matter what, even if it means their death. To do otherwise seems to be something regarded as sinful behavior. Deuteronomy 21:18 - 21 comes to mind.

Now, I understand these are all old testiment examples, and things have changed since Jesus completed the law (not abolished it) with his sacrifice. The thing is, though, breaking god's law is still a sin. Sin is punishable by death. Was the boy who disobeyed and fled for his life from his dad sinning? Was that action he took an act offensive to god?

When I was a Christian I asked something similar years ago. My pastor at the time had told me that yes, things like this are a sin, but that's where Jesus comes in, since his sacrifice obsolves all sin. Matthew 18:6 or Luke 17:2 suggest that harsh punishments are in store for those who cause a child to sin. Why is it a sin in the first place, though?

If someone is forced to sin in order to avoid their own death, or some other horrible fate, is it still a sin? We live in a world full of grey shades, and the concept of sin seems very black and white cut and dried to me.

I guess more than anything, this thread is more of a chance for me to get this off my chest more than anything else. If you folks have bible verses to back your thoughts on the topic, I would appreciate that. Thanks!

No the 10 commandments are not always to be taken literally in every situation. You have to consider the purpose for which each commandment was written. Take Rahab for example. She was counted by God as being righteous for lying to the Canaanite guards who were searching for the Israelite spies. Her actions were calculated to save lives and in her lie she won favor with God. Sin is a transgression against God it is not always disobeying one of His commandments because in some cases obeying His commandments can actually be a transgression against Him. I guarantee you that the boy disobeying his father in this case was not a transgression against God because it was not calculated in defiance of God or his father it was calculated in desperation for survival. Please tell me that child’s parents are in jail facing criminal charges.

 

[Neogaia777]

I feel like I might need to explain His (God's) character only being revealed in His Grace, etc...?

His Grace is His better side of Him (God) (God in the OT, etc) and it is His Mercy, and long suffering loving kindness, and Forgiveness, and Love, etc, those things, and others like them, are His "Grace", etc, and is the better side or better half of Him, and is only fully revealed, well, sometimes and sometimes just a little bit in the OT, etc, but is mainly shown and/or expressed now only primarily in the person of Jesus Christ now, etc... So, before that or Him, it wasn't really known or revealed yet, etc... But, now that it is, when God's law, or an obligation of God's law, comes into conflict with His now fully revealed moral character in the person of Jesus Christ, then we are to, as they say, "follow our hearts or moral conscience and disobey God's law when it comes into conflict with His now fully revealed true moral character", etc...

God Bless!

Oh, and "God is Love", and if anything conflicts with Love, then it goes against God's moral character, and is therefore a sin and wrong and evil, even and/or, and/or maybe even "especially", etc, even when it goes against or conflicts with God's law, etc...

Cause that is where we are at now and is the covenant we are in now, etc...

God Bless!

 

[public hermit]

omeone is forced to sin in order to avoid their own death, or some other horrible fate, is it still a sin? We live in a world full of grey shades, and the concept of sin seems very black and white cut and dried to me

Specific laws cannot cover every single possible scenario. The example of honoring abusive parents being an example. The law of love is more general and covers a much wider territory.

Love always seeks to do what is truly good. I love myself when I seek to do what is truly good for myself, and I love others when I seek to do what is truly good for others. The law of love overides other specific laws, when observing that specific law would fail to bring about what is truly good. There is nothing truly good in allowing, enabling, or engaging in abuse.

The law of love says, do what is needed to end the abuse. The child who fled abuse is loving himself, and the abuser, by bringing the abuse to an end, which is truly good. He honored his abusive parent by doing what that parent, or anybody else, should have done, i.e. end the abuse.

 

[Andrewn]

2Co 3:6 God who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

There has been a lot of abuse throughout history by mishandling the law, whether it is biblical law or civil law.

This is a terrible story you mentioned and there are a lot like it.

 

[JohnDB]

Yah, I guess my Christian experience was more legalistic and authoritarian.

Hmmm... How was disobedience in this case an honor to the father and mother?

As an added: they have been arrested. I've been following what happens to them over the county court records. I've seen their facebooks too. Kind of chilling... They look like normal people. The mother has an etsy account and sells crocheted things. The father is currently serving in the navy. I really hope the judge throws the book at them...

Okay...
I'm sure that someone at some point has told you that the Bible was originally written in other languages.
Most of the Old Testament (but not all) was written in a language called Hebrew.

Hebrew, at the time this section was written, was a living language like English currently is with more words being added all the time.
The Hebrew language is a highly metaphoric language filled with idioms of speech and metaphors that cover things that we have exacting words for.
All that to say that exacting word-for-word translations are impossible. Hebrew has parts of speech and words that really don't exist in English and vice versa...

In Hebrew there is no word for "grandfather" or forefather. Only the word "father" exists. Same goes for grandmother or foremother.

So when looking at "honor your mother and father" it's actually a reference to Abraham and Sarah who were God's friends. And in order to honor them you had to follow/copy the traditions, attitudes, and behaviors associated with Abraham and Sarah...being. Shining example of what a good New and friend of God's would be.

And when it comes to the subject of abuse...
Let's put it this way. Of course there's never an excuse for sin. And when it comes time for the subject of abuse of others (including the gift from God of children) He takes a rather dim view of the perpetrators and basically says that they will wish they, themselves had never been born by the time He finishes with them...
IOW God is saying that man's prison system is going to be a cakewalk by comparison to His plans for abusers.

The little boy may have disobeyed his father by escaping out the window but he wasn't living and he escaped from death to life...thereby following God's greater decree which is the promise from the second half of that commandment. "...thy days will be long

 

[Press On]

I think you made the right call.

My dad fought in that war. I never signed up for military service, though. He told me he's glad I never had to see the things he had to. I'm kind of glad, too.

I love our servicemen and women and the sacrifices they make; but it takes a toll and has a cost. I'm not sure wars like the Vietnam war were worth that cost, though.

I was fortunate in that I was able to join the Coast Guard instead.

Some areas had long waiting lists but I was able to get in fairly quickly before I turned 18 and had to register with the draft board.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I would like to start with a trigger warning. This discussion will involve child abuse. The topic might get heated, but I'd like this to be more of a chance for people to voice their own personal perspectives. My understanding of Christianity is limited to the churches of a small handful of denominations from a tiny corner of the world I grew up in. I'd like to expand that, while maybe at the same time duscuss something that's not always sit right in the back of my mind.

I don't want this to be some kind of "gotcha!" topic to make Christian folks look bad, but this is going to be a tough topic that I hope to gain Christian folks' perspectives on. If you think your opinion might not be popular, then I especially want to see what you have to say!

I work in a hospital, and from time to time we see some horrible things. About a week or two ago, a 13 year old boy was brought to the E.R. He looked like a concentration camp victum. he was hunched over like an old man, his legs were bowed, and he has suffered damage that he has to live with for the rest of his life. Skeletal and sunken.

His parents had only fed him toast and lettuce leaves. The rest of his family (including his sibblings) got to eat whatever they wanted, so it wasn't some kind of vegetarian abuse thing. He wasn't allowed to use the bathroom at night, so he was forced to poop and pee in his own room. His dad hooked up a motion sensing camera (like hunters use to track deer in the woods) and forced him to stand in front of it all day long, which is why his legs were bowed. If he moved, it would send a text to his dad so he would know, and he could "punish" him.

I don't know much more than that, but I will say that if the boy hadn't been rescued, he'd probably be dead had that gone on much longer. He looked like he was in rough shape... The only reason he was able to escape that situation alive is because he finally disobeyed his dad and climbed out the window. The neighbors saw him climb out, and they called the cops when they saw the state the boy was in.

Everyone in the hospital was emotional after they saw him. It was disturbing. He was covered in bug bites and smelled like poop and pee. Why would anyone treat any child that way, let alone their own child?

The thing that gets me is that, because the cafeteria was closed, we got him some peanut butter and jelly sandwiches from the cafe. Just some bread and single serving packets of cheap PB&J. He ate 3 of them, some chips, and just a bunch of the junk food they had. He said it was the best thing he'd ever had. One of the folks there told him he didn't have to eat all the things he couldn't before all at once.

The whole point of this story, though, is that the boy obeyed his father. He did what his father said, and it was killing him. It wasn't until he broke the 5th commandment where he was finally able to have a fighting chance. His choices, in my mind, were to sin or to die.

Now, growing up, I was taught there was an age of accountability, but I was never able to find any verses in the bible that reflected that idea. In fact, it seems to me that a child was expected to obey the authority of their father no matter what. Japheth's daughter dutifully obeyed her father when he sacrificed her to god. Isaac did the same when Abraham told him he was going to be a sacrifice for god as well. Children seem to be expected to do what their father asks no matter what, even if it means their death. To do otherwise seems to be something regarded as sinful behavior. Deuteronomy 21:18 - 21 comes to mind.

Now, I understand these are all old testiment examples, and things have changed since Jesus completed the law (not abolished it) with his sacrifice. The thing is, though, breaking god's law is still a sin. Sin is punishable by death. Was the boy who disobeyed and fled for his life from his dad sinning? Was that action he took an act offensive to god?

When I was a Christian I asked something similar years ago. My pastor at the time had told me that yes, things like this are a sin, but that's where Jesus comes in, since his sacrifice obsolves all sin. Matthew 18:6 or Luke 17:2 suggest that harsh punishments are in store for those who cause a child to sin. Why is it a sin in the first place, though?

If someone is forced to sin in order to avoid their own death, or some other horrible fate, is it still a sin? We live in a world full of grey shades, and the concept of sin seems very black and white cut and dried to me.

I guess more than anything, this thread is more of a chance for me to get this off my chest more than anything else. If you folks have bible verses to back your thoughts on the topic, I would appreciate that. Thanks!

Was the family of the boy you aided a "Christian" family?

 

[com7fy8]

His choices, in my mind, were to sin or to die.

In that case, I would say he was not sinning by disobeying his father. God's word is meant for parents who are godly and good examples > to obey them by following their good example, not only doing what they say to do.

Japheth's daughter dutifully obeyed her father when he sacrificed her to god.

She even said goodbye to everyone before she was killed.

And she insisted that he do what he vowed to do. But it says she lamented her virginity . . . not loss of life; but she might have understood she was lamenting her virginity because of the fact that she would die.

I consider there was a way to keep her alive, perhaps by substituting a lamb to redeem her. But, still, may be she did not marry, which would be equivalent to not living, as far as that culture was concerned. It does not directly say he killed her. But I admit it is possible, but not what God required . . . in such a case.

But he did vow that whatsoever he first saw, when he returned, this he would sacrifice to the LORD; and I see how he could have meant for the LORD to decide and control what he would see first. So, I would not say he necessarily acted in haste, in case he intended for God to decide and control. God was in control, knowing how things would go.

So, I am open. But I consider God had him do something other than kill her. In any case, he could pray and make sure with God. If he didn't make sure with God, that would have been acting in haste, I think.

Isaac did the same when Abraham told him he was going to be a sacrifice for god as well.

Abraham understood that the LORD would resurrect Isaac so Isaac could be used to complete the promise God had already given Abraham > Hebrews 11:17-19. So, yes it is clear to me that Abraham actually did understand that the LORD was telling him to kill and burn Isaac as a sacrifice. But it appears God overruled His own order, to show what He really considers to be right from wrong.

My pastor at the time had told me that yes, things like this are a sin, but that's where Jesus comes in, since his sacrifice obsolves all sin.

Possibly, the boy did not have a moral compass, about obeying parents. He just was going along because that was all he knew to do, at least to some extent. But then he did escape > however he processed in himself to do that, after going along so long, I don't know. But I trust God delivered him.

But this is the sort of thing which Satan's kingdom can rig, in order to make it look like there is no God. This could, then, be one sample of how evil is so horrible and anti-God and anti-love, that evil has people do stuff like this, in order to make God and love look bad. So, in any case, it is wise not to ever allow evil to decide how we see things.

How is someone supposed to know that an authority figure is or is not acting on behalf of god? It can't just be based on what the character of god is, since human sacrifice isn't part of his character, yet it was actually what he was wanting Abraham to go through with (until he stopped him).

He stopped Abraham; so He was not approving that.

How does one know? There are people who do not have ways to know, I would say; except, the Bible says God shows things to people > Romans 1:19-20. But Jesus says there are ones who do not know, yet they will receive stripes > Luke 12:48.

What I consider is may be the person does not know about specific items, but still on the overall the person has rejected God; and so the person gets stripes because of rejecting God, but maybe not for what the person did not know. In any case, there is no excuse.

Now, you identify as an atheist; yet here you are busy with a discussion of right from wrong . . . on things which likely would make little difference if all were driven only by evolution. So . . . in case there really is God > this is why you manage to somehow get concerned about morals and good versus evil. Because if evolution was the highest driver, it could be acceptable for a lot of humans to be removed so there would not be such ruin which humans cause. That could be better for survival of humans and other living beings.

But because God has a use for even evil people, and His redemption working, He has managed things so even unbelievers feel very concerned for the well-being of antisocial and destructive people, so we are putting them in prisons and making major sacrifices to keep them.

Are you saying that god's law becomes void when a scenerio unfolds in the absense of his direct will, though? In this case, the child was sinless to disobey the father and disregard the fifth commandment? If so, I'd be curious to see a bible verse that reflects that.

"where there is no law there is no transgression" (in Romans 4:15).

But a person is still liable for if the person rejects God. Because we are "without excuse", we have in Romans 1:20. One might not be held accountable for not doing a certain law thing, but still how that person is in one's character is going to be evaluated on the day of judgment > Galatians 6:7-8 > speaks to this, I would say. In this life, each of us is becoming more and more how we will be when we die. And then we will reap so much more of this. In a way, each of us will be our own consequence, of how we will be for all eternity. So it is wise to invest in becoming like Jesus!

So, in my opinion, the do's and don'ts of laws is not the first priority.

Are you saying that god's law becomes void when a scenerio unfolds in the absense of his direct will, though? In this case, the child was sinless to disobey the father and disregard the fifth commandment? If so, I'd be curious to see a bible verse that reflects that.

I think the concern is deeper, in such a case, than do or do not obey the father. You have the case of when the midwives were told by an authority figure to kill all the newborn male Jewish children. And the LORD rewarded them for disobeying the Pharaoh.

As for abuse, I think the fear of death definitely qualifies as abuse.

I think of Hebrews 2:14-15. This is talking about one of the things which Jesus was accomplishing by dying on the cross >

"Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage." (Hebrews 2:14-15)

So . . . Satan abuses his children with "fear of death".

So, indeed this is wrong. Hebrews 2:14-15, then, I would say, agrees with you!!

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I would like to start with a trigger warning. This discussion will involve child abuse. The topic might get heated, but I'd like this to be more of a chance for people to voice their own personal perspectives. My understanding of Christianity is limited to the churches of a small handful of denominations from a tiny corner of the world I grew up in. I'd like to expand that, while maybe at the same time duscuss something that's not always sit right in the back of my mind.

I don't want this to be some kind of "gotcha!" topic to make Christian folks look bad, but this is going to be a tough topic that I hope to gain Christian folks' perspectives on. If you think your opinion might not be popular, then I especially want to see what you have to say!

I work in a hospital, and from time to time we see some horrible things. About a week or two ago, a 13 year old boy was brought to the E.R. He looked like a concentration camp victum. he was hunched over like an old man, his legs were bowed, and he has suffered damage that he has to live with for the rest of his life. Skeletal and sunken.

His parents had only fed him toast and lettuce leaves. The rest of his family (including his sibblings) got to eat whatever they wanted, so it wasn't some kind of vegetarian abuse thing. He wasn't allowed to use the bathroom at night, so he was forced to poop and pee in his own room. His dad hooked up a motion sensing camera (like hunters use to track deer in the woods) and forced him to stand in front of it all day long, which is why his legs were bowed. If he moved, it would send a text to his dad so he would know, and he could "punish" him.

I don't know much more than that, but I will say that if the boy hadn't been rescued, he'd probably be dead had that gone on much longer. He looked like he was in rough shape... The only reason he was able to escape that situation alive is because he finally disobeyed his dad and climbed out the window. The neighbors saw him climb out, and they called the cops when they saw the state the boy was in.

Everyone in the hospital was emotional after they saw him. It was disturbing. He was covered in bug bites and smelled like poop and pee. Why would anyone treat any child that way, let alone their own child?

The thing that gets me is that, because the cafeteria was closed, we got him some peanut butter and jelly sandwiches from the cafe. Just some bread and single serving packets of cheap PB&J. He ate 3 of them, some chips, and just a bunch of the junk food they had. He said it was the best thing he'd ever had. One of the folks there told him he didn't have to eat all the things he couldn't before all at once.

The whole point of this story, though, is that the boy obeyed his father. He did what his father said, and it was killing him. It wasn't until he broke the 5th commandment where he was finally able to have a fighting chance. His choices, in my mind, were to sin or to die.

Now, growing up, I was taught there was an age of accountability, but I was never able to find any verses in the bible that reflected that idea. In fact, it seems to me that a child was expected to obey the authority of their father no matter what. Japheth's daughter dutifully obeyed her father when he sacrificed her to god. Isaac did the same when Abraham told him he was going to be a sacrifice for god as well. Children seem to be expected to do what their father asks no matter what, even if it means their death. To do otherwise seems to be something regarded as sinful behavior. Deuteronomy 21:18 - 21 comes to mind.

Now, I understand these are all old testiment examples, and things have changed since Jesus completed the law (not abolished it) with his sacrifice. The thing is, though, breaking god's law is still a sin. Sin is punishable by death. Was the boy who disobeyed and fled for his life from his dad sinning? Was that action he took an act offensive to god?

When I was a Christian I asked something similar years ago. My pastor at the time had told me that yes, things like this are a sin, but that's where Jesus comes in, since his sacrifice obsolves all sin. Matthew 18:6 or Luke 17:2 suggest that harsh punishments are in store for those who cause a child to sin. Why is it a sin in the first place, though?

If someone is forced to sin in order to avoid their own death, or some other horrible fate, is it still a sin? We live in a world full of grey shades, and the concept of sin seems very black and white cut and dried to me.

I guess more than anything, this thread is more of a chance for me to get this off my chest more than anything else. If you folks have bible verses to back your thoughts on the topic, I would appreciate that. Thanks!

We have a loving and logical God. He gave us survival instincts for a reason. This boy did the best he could to survive. Obeying his father may have been the only reason he is still alive. Now these horrible parents will face incarceration.Be blessed.

 

[xxkingskidlmxx]

Well,
I just looked it up, cause I was missing a few details of the story also...?

It seems that Japheth had won a battle or a war, where he must have at least promised God in his heart, or took a vow in his heart, that if he won the battle or war, probably in order to save a lot of people, etc, that he would sacrifice the first thing or person to come out of his house when he got back, knowing that that might be his only one and most beloved child, but also leaving it up to God as well, he didn't want it to be her, cause he loved her more than anything, but it was a way of saying to God if you ask even this of me, I will do it, etc, and God did, and so he did, etc...

The daughter also told her father that he should keep the vow also, etc, even knowing that it was for her to be sacrificed, etc, she did not doubt that her father was a Godly man, and that God had basically commanded it, etc...

But, in the NT, Jesus tells us to not make any vows at all ever now also, etc...

I don't think God does those kind of agreements now anymore, etc...

And it probably would be a sin for us to do it now, now that were in the NC and no longer under the Old, etc...



That is the real trick, isn't it...?



Men in the OT heard from God and obeyed, and they were still under the OT law covenant, etc, things are a little different now, etc...

And Abraham with Issac was a foreshadowing of God and Christ, and Abraham need to "know God", and this, this "feeling", was part of it or that, etc...



God's law is pretty much void now, but God's law also becomes void (under the NC) when it conflicts with His being or character, which we are able to fully know now, but that most of them were not able to in the OT, or when they are or were still under the OC, (even now), etc... (still operating under the OT law covenant now, etc) (still blind to his true character, etc) (only revealed in His Grace, etc)...



Yes, the child did not sin when he did that "now", etc...



I don't know if I know what are meaning here, do you mean a parent, or God, putting the fear of death into people, or a child, or what exactly...?

Or who or what are your referring to here, etc...?

God Bless!

it could be noted that the same occurrence as the judge that cursed his daughter also happened when the king saul cursed jonathan but the people petitioned his release where they failed to do so for the daughter, leaving the blame at the people’s feet and not the Lord’s.