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When suicide is OK

ReUsAbLePhEoNiX

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My grandfather died a few months ago, he was 86 years old, he was a veggie for the past ten years, unable to get out of bed and the mind of a 5 year old, because of a few brain diseases associated with old age. For 10 years my grandmother paid a rest home to take care of him, draining all her money away.
I hope if I find myself in the same situation when I get Old that I can have the option of killing myself legally and with respect.
Laws that interfere with ones own rights causes undue suffering.
What do you think?
 

vajradhara

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ReUsAbLePhEoNiX said:
My grandfather died a few months ago, he was 86 years old, he was a veggie for the past ten years, unable to get out of bed and the mind of a 5 year old, because of a few brain diseases associated with old age. For 10 years my grandmother paid a rest home to take care of him, draining all her money away.
I hope if I find myself in the same situation when I get Old that I can have the option of killing myself legally and with respect.
Laws that interfere with ones own rights causes undue suffering.
What do you think?
Namaste ReusablePheonix,

thank you for the post.

it's tough.. i'll presume that you are in America and that you are bound by those laws...

really.. what it comes down to is you need to live in a place where that is permissable or your spouse or whomever helps you will be likely to go to jail.

imagine if you were dying from bone cancer or something equally as painful. all your spouse wants to do is help you relieve the pain.. even if for only one single, solitary moment... but, despite their best effort, they can do nothing for you.. except watch you suffer.

some would have you believe that should be the way that things are.

i would disagree.

my mother died of bone cancer a few years ago.. her life, such that it was, for the preceeding 6 years was an excerise in pain. she went from a slim 120lbs to 76lbs during the final year of her illness... the cancer eating away at her bones and her joints.... with nothing able to relieve the pain except massive shots of morpheine. you can't give that to someone, you know, unless you are an RN or MD or the like.... all you can do as a daughter or son or spouse is watch the love of your life suffering and die horribly and painfully.

i want no part of that or that mind set and i'm willing to take steps to ensure that it doesn't come to that. however, one never knows how things will turn out. i would hope that, all things being equal, that it would be me that is the one ill as i'm not sure that i could be strong enough to watch my love wither and die like that without doing something to help stop the pain.

ah.. pain.. my constant friend... soon, you too, shall have to bid me a fond adieu... though i shall not be sorrowfully parted from our companionship.
 
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ej

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Doctors were prevented from carrying out euthenasia by the original Hippocratic Oath (which pre-dates Christianity.)

The modern Hippocratic Oath, however, prevents the killing of a sick person without good reason.

With the advances of modern medicine, no patient should be allowed to die in pain or discomfort. There are palliative care specialists in every city and town, who ensure that the patient is free from distress, pain and nausea. They also approach the psychological side and effects of terminal illnesses. If you have a relative who is suffering, you need to change doctors and receive more adequate care :)

Regarding euthenasia however... I hope that once a patient's pain, symptoms and psychological needs are optimally cared for, they will pass away peacefully and happily - there should ideally be no need for prematurely induced death to avoid these symptoms.
 
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ReUsAbLePhEoNiX

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ej said:
Doctors were prevented from carrying out euthenasia by the original Hippocratic Oath (which pre-dates Christianity.)

The modern Hippocratic Oath, however, prevents the killing of a sick person without good reason.

With the advances of modern medicine, no patient should be allowed to die in pain or discomfort. There are palliative care specialists in every city and town, who ensure that the patient is free from distress, pain and nausea. They also approach the psychological side and effects of terminal illnesses. If you have a relative who is suffering, you need to change doctors and receive more adequate care :)

Regarding euthenasia however... I hope that once a patient's pain, symptoms and psychological needs are optimally cared for, they will pass away peacefully and happily - there should ideally be no need for prematurely induced death to avoid these symptoms.


I just remembered something about my grandfathers death...he had a do-not-resusitate-order and his wife denied it when he had a stroke and they had to hook him up to all the machines about 8 years ago and I know they revived him a few times after that ....so in a way its my grandmothers fault ( not the Laws) that he didnt die years ago.
 
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ej

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I'm sorry, Reuseable... that's a horrid situation :(

DNR orders are (IMHO) a peaceful alternative to active euthanasia. Patients can receive optimal supportive and symptomatic treatment, but if they die, there are no heroic efforts to preserve their life. It seems a natural course of action and care for one who has an unltimately incurable condition.
 
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CanD

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Given that some people are only alive due to artificial life support, I would think that to remove the life support wouldn't be suicide, but to administer a lethal injection would be. One accepts natural process, while the other one dictates.

I've found this to be a hard topic because it's a very very personal thing. As is the situation with your grandfather, there are emotional, ethical and financial things to consider.

For me, personally, I wish that life support machines hadn't been invented because they put people in very difficult positions in that they make us choose life or death when it would have been a lot clearer and easier had nature been allowed to take its course.

There are of course instances where these machines help, but if there is absolutely no hope of someone coming right and being in a vegetative state, then I would think the normal thing to do would be to shut the machine off or pray for a miracle or even supernatural intercession to actually initiate that death.

Euthanasia, the assisting in suicide usually for medical reasons, is still suicide. Even though someone may be terminal, they probably still have a bit of kick in them, and if they don't, then it becomes a tougher situation for the close relatives, as no one wants to see someone suffer - especially someone you love so dearly. In an instance like this, you would be better to pray and ask God's will be done. Be that healing or a swift passing away of the person so they don't have to suffer any more.

Euthanasia, the means of assisting suicide, is still suicide. While some may consider turning life support machines off to be murder, I think it would depend on how far gone the patient is. If there is no chance they will recover and they are only alive because of the machine, but they are unconscious, then I would think one is already past it. If they are conscious, that makes it all the more difficult and some serious prayer would need to take effect.
 
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tcampen

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If I had a terminal illness, a few weeks to live, and my last days and moment would be spent either in agonizing pain or a drugged up stupor, I think it should be my choice to leave this world with more dignity than that. I understand the fear of "grey areas" and the slippery slope arguments. But putting those aside for a moment and looking at individual circumstances, I can't see the moral or practical value of forcing someone to spend their last moments in this condition. We treat animals better.
 
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There are reasons why people are kept alive it is not a
humans place in any way to choose who is too sick to live
and who can be revived. Any form of suicide is the killing
of a human which is clearly wrongin the eyes of God. In
Mathew 5:21 it says, "You have heard that it was said to
people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders
will be subject to judgement.' with euthenasia the person
wanting to be killed is putting judgement upon themselves
and the person assisting is also taking the judgement
upon themselves.
 
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ReUsAbLePhEoNiX

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foreverandyesterday said:
There are reasons why people are kept alive it is not a
humans place in any way to choose who is too sick to live
and who can be revived. Any form of suicide is the killing
of a human which is clearly wrongin the eyes of God. In
Mathew 5:21 it says, "You have heard that it was said to
people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders
will be subject to judgement.' with euthenasia the person
wanting to be killed is putting judgement upon themselves
and the person assisting is also taking the judgement
upon themselves.
i hate to beat a dead horse thats already tenderized...killing of a human is not CLEARLY wrong in the eyes of God.More than a few examples I see in the O.T. I remember reading God was very happy when that guy ran the spear thru the woman in front of Moses and God ordered those people impaled before the sun. Even Jesus commited suicide
 
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ReUsAbLePhEoNiX

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In the case of my Grandfather, the only reason why he was alive for so many years was because of man-made technology and machines...

Do you think it is murder in Gods eyes when somebody pulls the plug?
Who gave my grand father the extra years of living , God or Man?

So when you pull the plug on someone, you are not taking away something God gave (life) ....when you pull the plug you are removing mans interference in the natural course of events....is this immoral?
 
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BarbB

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ReUsAbLePhEoNiX said:
In the case of my Grandfather, the only reason why he was alive for so many years was because of man-made technology and machines...
Same thing with my father who had a massive stroke in 1997 and died last year. I have left my brother with written instructions that if I have such a stroke, he is not to allow surgery or any other means of keeping me alive. He has promised me to honor that!

ReUsAbLePhEoNiX said:
Do you think it is murder in Gods eyes when somebody pulls the plug?
I hope not, because I had to authorize "pulling the plug" on my husband. I have asked forgiveness for doing so, in any case!

ReUsAbLePhEoNiX said:
Who gave my grand father the extra years of living , God or Man?
Man, through God? I don't really know. I do believe that even as a vegetable God can work on a person, drawing them to Himself. That's why I am not a supporter of active euthanasia. If God wants you dead, he does not have to rely on man!

ReUsAbLePhEoNiX said:
So when you pull the plug on someone, you are not taking away something God gave (life) ....when you pull the plug you are removing mans interference in the natural course of events....is this immoral?
See above! I just don't know!

As for painful final months of life - use Hospice! They treat all aspects of terminal illness and very effectively deal with pain!
 
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IvoryRain

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Apologist said:
I think life belongs to the Lord alone and we are commiting murder (self murder)when we kill ourselves in the fashion you have described.
I agree. And one step further, I personally dont see much in "assisted suicide". In almost all cases, the suicide wasnt assisted - the death was forced (could the deceased carry the act out on their own?) and murder occured (death given to one by another).

One couldnt push a suicidal person off a building (who was thinking of jumping anyway) and get away with it in the name of compassion.
 
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Alenci

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Apologist said:
I think life belongs to the Lord alone and we are commiting murder (self murder)when we kill ourselves in the fashion you have described.
Is removing someone from a life-support machine also then murder? Furthermore, without the intervention in the first place, they would be dead, so is it wrong also to preserve life?

[EDIT sorry I didn't see that ReUsAbLePhEoNiX had already posted a similar question]
 
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stillsmallvoice

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Hi all!

We (orthodox Jews) infer the ban on suicide from Genesis 9:5 ("And surely your blood of your lives will I require..."). The Jewish attitude towards suicide, as opposed to selfless martyrdom, is rather complicated. On the one hand, while voluntary and premeditated suicide is considered to be reprehensible and an affront to God, all suicides are a priori assumed to have done so without the necessary premeditation, whether from pathological depression, not being in possession of his faculties, or from having been under duress, until it can be proven otherwise. "Duress" mainly means the necessity of having to kill one's self (or consent to your being killed) rather than violate one of the three sins that a Jew must never commit even at the cost of his/her life (murder, adultery/incest, and idolatry), or to prevent being captured alive by heathen if this would involve a desecration of God's Name and would, in itself, be a sanctification of God's Name. The suicide of King Saul is a good example of the latter (our Sages do not condemn King Saul, "because he knew that the Philistines would do with him as they pleased, and put him to death"); the suicide of Samson is another. The mass suicides which took place during the Middle Ages in order to avoid forced baptism, or the March 1190 mass suicide by the Jews of York, England (see http://www.bispham2.freeserve.co.uk/castles/york.htm , scroll down to the last 3 paragraphs), are generally deemed to be martyrs who died in the sanctification of God's Name.

Jews who (God forbid!) commit voluntary, willful and premeditated suicide (and who are ruled as such by an orthodox rabbinical court; see above) are not to be mourned for; i.e. surviving first-degree relatives do not observe the usual Jewish mourning rites & practices. There is a custom that the kaddish prayer (see http://www.christianforums.com/t39620&page=3&highlight=kaddish , posts #4, #6 and #26) be said for 12 months for a willful suicide, the assumption being that his/her soul needs the extra month of having kaddish recited for it.

The above being said, as an orthodox Jew, I strongly oppose "assisted suicide" a la "Dr." Jack Kevorkian. What he does is cold-blooded murder. Judaism teaches that we do not enjoy proprietary rights over either our bodies or our souls, neither is ours to do with as we please. (Orthodox) Judaism does not hold "quality of life" to be a valid consideration in this context. We believe that ALL life is precious & holy and that such as we are incapable of deciding when "quality of life" is such that ending the life in question is warranted.

While nothing may be done (under Jewish law) to shorten the life of an ill person, if someone is really terminal & is really at death's door (or "has one foot in the next world" as we say), one need not, should not, take measures that would detain a soul that has already begun its journey to the next world. There's an account in the Talmud of a great sage who was terminally ill & was clearly dying. His students were gathered around him praying for him. Only their prayers were keeping their teacher's soul in this world. The teacher's maidservant understood this. She took a glass dish, held it up & then let it go. It fell to the floor & shattered. The sudden, sharp noise startled the students & interrupted their prayers. In that instant, their teacher died. The Talmud says that what the maidservant did was praiseworthy & what the students were doing was wrong.

My wife has a cousin here in Israel whose wife gave birth prematurely to twin boys. One boy was much stronger than the other & spent many months in the premie ward in a local hospital. He is now a healthy toddler (thank God!). His twin brother was not so fortunate. He was very weak, had severe, multiple, developmental problems. The doctors gave him absolutely zero chance of surviving more than a few weeks even with the best of care, heroic measures, etc. The parents consulted a very prominent (orthodox) rabbi who is an expert in such matters. He ruled that given what the doctors said, that the infant should be fed/hydrated but that nothing else need be done. The boy died after only a few days in this world (may God bless and keep him!).

I believe that the general principle in (orthodox) Jewish law is that one need not be hooked up to lifesaving machines but that once hooked up, they may not be turned off or unhooked.

Be well!

ssv :wave:
 
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