When is the sin of unrepentant homosexuality a sin?

[Inviolable]

[/i]

Good answer. Well, then, how come when I read your posts out loud, it sounds like the comedy stylings of Yakov Smirnoff?

Probabley for the same reason yours sound like Attila the hun?

Quick! Gather your homosexual army and burn down Rome! They have not produced the bounty you seek.

In Soviet Russia, Rome burns you.

 

[Robinsegg]

The fact that an argument makes you uncomfortable does not make it imperfect nor does it negate the point made.

I don't recall saying it made me uncomfortable. I think it an imperfect analogy.

You may wish to do some readings on the civil rights era and the position of many Christians on said topic. Those opposed to equal rights did not hate people because of the color of the skin they had, rather the issue was that those with dark skin were acting in sinful or unbiblical ways, specifically acting or pretending to be equal to whites.

I've never stated that homosexuals are less than anyone. I say their relationships are less than marriage (as I believe marriage was instituted by God, and God's definition should be upheld), but I don't see homosexuals as anything but people. Blacks are equally people as whites, and homosexuals are equally people as heterosexuals. The relationships are different, not the people. I'm familiar with the "biblical" mandate to enslave black peoples . . . as I'm studying Genesis for the ancestry of "races" or "people groups", I find that claim untenable, as many besides Africans were descended from Ham.

As for the removal of homosexuality from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual in the early 1970’s: The lobby you speak of was not so much a lobby but an ongoing discussion begun twenty years early by a group of researchers who actually tried to test the claim that homosexuality was a mental illness. This group found that there was no evidence to support that claim and thus the removal of homosexuality from the DSM. I can recommend the excellent book Changing Our Minds: The Story of Dr. Evelyn Hooker by Richard Schmiechen if you wish to read on this topic.

It is interesting to note that the removal of homosexuality from the DSM happened over thirty years ago because no one could support the claim that homosexuality was a mental illness and to date no one has ever been able to provide evidence for such a claim.

Thank you for that information. As I said, I was ignorant of that particular facet of the situation.

Rachel

 

[Robinsegg]

The analogy isn't one of causation; it's one of bigotry. In that sense, it is an entirely perfect analogy.

Bigotry, in its' largest sense, is not always a necessarily bad thing. After all, I'd say that heliocentrists of the 16th century were rather bigotted, clinging to their belief with no tolerance for another. They ended up being right.
Bigotry, as in treating someone else as "less than", is wrong and unChristlike. We should treat people as people, as all of us have sin issues. That doesn't, however, mean we must agree with or accept their sin as a viable alternative. Therefore, those like me (who see homosexual activity as sinful but do not advocate treating homosexuals with contempt or discourtesy) should not be reprimanded for speaking (and holding onto) our opinion. We will be, but that's as may be.

Rachel

 

[Texas Lynn]

Bigotry, as in treating someone else as "less than", is wrong and unChristlike.

I hope that means we can count on you to therefore express strong disapproval of such as the following bigoted actions recently:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLEID=52554

A Houston landscaping company is under fire for turning down a job because its Christian owners have a policy of not working for homosexual customers – a decision that has spurred calls for a boycott and an anti-discrimination ordinance that would prevent them from selecting clients based on sexual orientation....

 

[Robinsegg]

Why should a company care what the people of another firm do on their own time? If you're hired to do a job, do the job to the best of your ability (as if doing the job for God, not for man), get paid and go about your business. Right? After all, we're to be in the world to shine light, but not of the world so that our light is dimmed. Therefore, if we keep our light hidden away, or worse purposefully deny others the presence of our light, are we following Scripture?

Rachel

 

[TracerBullet]

I don't recall saying it made me uncomfortable. I think it an imperfect analogy.

And the point made still stands. Just because discrimination is popular (or the view of the majority) does not make said discrimination moral or good or just.

I've never stated that homosexuals are less than anyone. I say their relationships are less than marriage (as I believe marriage was instituted by God, and God's definition should be upheld), but I don't see homosexuals as anything but people. Blacks are equally people as whites, and homosexuals are equally people as heterosexuals. The relationships are different, not the people. I'm familiar with the "biblical" mandate to enslave black peoples . . . as I'm studying Genesis for the ancestry of "races" or "people groups", I find that claim untenable, as many besides Africans were descended from Ham.

You may note that the arguments used today to justify discrimination against gays and lesbians are identical to arguments used a generation ago to justify discrimination based on color.

On the one had you are claiming that you “don't see homosexuals as anything but people” but at the same time you are justifying discrimination against gays and lesbians. Can you explain how you justify these two mutually exclusive positions?

I said nothing about a biblical mandate to enslave anybody. I simply noted that a generation ago racism was justified biblically exactly how discrimination against gays and lesbians is being justified today.

That is nice that you find the biblical interpretations made by racists untenable. Does that make what racists believe wrong? If so does not your biblical defense of discrimination against gays and lesbians suffer from the same problem?

Thank you for that information. As I said, I was ignorant of that particular facet of the situation.


Rachel

You are most welcome

 

[TracerBullet]

Bigotry, in its' largest sense, is not always a necessarily bad thing. After all, I'd say that heliocentrists of the 16th century were rather bigotted, clinging to their belief with no tolerance for another. They ended up being right.

you seem to have a rather odd notion of what bigotry is and what it feels like to be on the receiving end of it.

Bigotry, as in treating someone else as "less than", is wrong and unChristlike. We should treat people as people, as all of us have sin issues. That doesn't, however, mean we must agree with or accept their sin as a viable alternative. Therefore, those like me (who see homosexual activity as sinful but do not advocate treating homosexuals with contempt or discourtesy) should not be reprimanded for speaking (and holding onto) our opinion. We will be, but that's as may be.

you claim that Christians should not treat “homosexuals with contempt or discourtesy” yet you advocate discrimination

 

[Robinsegg]

you seem to have a rather odd notion of what bigotry is and what it feels like to be on the receiving end of it.




you claim that Christians should not treat “homosexuals with contempt or discourtesy” yet you advocate discrimination

I got my definition of bigotry from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bigot It has multiple applications, and I used the most innocuous in my first statement.

What discrimination have I advocated here? I believe in treating people as people. When in a friendship with an homosexual, I would make my opinions clear once, then leave the subject to speak of it again only when the other person brings it up. I suppose I don't see homosexual relationships on the same level as marriage, but I also think those so engaged should be able to choose who may see them in hospital, make whatever last will & testament they choose, and the like.

Rachel

 

[TracerBullet]

I got my definition of bigotry from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bigot It has multiple applications, and I used the most innocuous in my first statement.

Yes…I am aware

Now please think for a moment about just what your minimization of bigotry says to those who have been the victim of racism and homophobia and religious hatred.

[qutoe] What discrimination have I advocated here? I believe in treating people as people. When in a friendship with an homosexual, I would make my opinions clear once, then leave the subject to speak of it again only when the other person brings it up. I suppose I don't see homosexual relationships on the same level as marriage, but I also think those so engaged should be able to choose who may see them in hospital, make whatever last will & testament they choose, and the like.[/quote]

You answered your own question right here.

On one hand you wish to portray yourself as “treating people as people” yet at the same time you diminish an entire minorities relationships.

“I say their relationships are less than marriage”

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=28620280&postcount=302

 

[Robinsegg]

Sorry, double post.

 

[Robinsegg]

You answered your own question right here.

On one hand you wish to portray yourself as “treating people as people” yet at the same time you diminish an entire minorities relationships.

“I say their relationships are less than marriage”

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=28620280&postcount=302

[/QUOTE]
I make no excuse for this statement. I believe that any sexual relationship not created by God (marriage) is therefore created by man. That which is created by man will always be lesser than that which God creates. Therefore, I do not single out homosexual relationships, but also premarital sexual relationships and extramarital sexual relationships. Any sexual relationship outside of God's choice is less than that which is within His choice.

God commanded not marrying outside ones' religion. He made His opposition to gay sex clear (near as I can figure) while nearly commanding that married couples not deny each other (for more than a specified time for prayer). Thus, I can only suppose that homosexual marriage is outside God's ideal. While there is clear language against marrying someone of a different religion (unless a conversion is made), there is no suggestion that marrying someone of a different race/nation who believes the same as you do is wrong. As a matter of fact, the line of Christ Himself has at least two "inter-race" marriages (Rahab and Salmon, Ruth and Boaz). Believing that interrace marriage is wrong is simply not Biblical. Believing that homosexual or inter-religious marriage is wrong comes from the Bible.

Rachel

 

[JesusWalks78]

I make no excuse for this statement. I believe that any sexual relationship not created by God (marriage) is therefore created by man. That which is created by man will always be lesser than that which God creates. Therefore, I do not single out homosexual relationships, but also premarital sexual relationships and extramarital sexual relationships. Any sexual relationship outside of God's choice is less than that which is within His choice.

God commanded not marrying outside ones' religion. He made His opposition to gay sex clear (near as I can figure) while nearly commanding that married couples not deny each other (for more than a specified time for prayer). Thus, I can only suppose that homosexual marriage is outside God's ideal. While there is clear language against marrying someone of a different religion (unless a conversion is made), there is no suggestion that marrying someone of a different race/nation who believes the same as you do is wrong. As a matter of fact, the line of Christ Himself has at least two "inter-race" marriages (Rahab and Salmon, Ruth and Boaz). Believing that interrace marriage is wrong is simply not Biblical. Believing that homosexual or inter-religious marriage is wrong comes from the Bible.

Rachel

 

[Texas Lynn]

I believe that any sexual relationship not created by God (marriage) is therefore created by man.

Every relationship structure there is including "marriage" of the form practiced now in the West, serial monogamy, are entirely the creations of humans.

 

[CriticalMassKitten]

For something that God made so clear, it sure is debated alot, and is awefully vague.

 

[Rae]

Robinsegg, could you get God to tell me this himself? All I ever get are people saying God has said same-sex marriage is bad, whether it's in books like the Bible or on Internet forums like this. Thanks. As things stand, no Gods have ever told me same-sex marriage is anything but good.

 

[Robinsegg]

Robinsegg, could you get God to tell me this himself? All I ever get are people saying God has said same-sex marriage is bad, whether it's in books like the Bible or on Internet forums like this. Thanks. As things stand, no Gods have ever told me same-sex marriage is anything but good.

I've never heard God audibly speak. There are those who have (but they've been dead for centuries). The idea is that once the cannon of Scripture was fulfilled, we had all we needed to believe, if we wish. God doesn't speak to us directly, but through His word (the Bible, His letter to us). If, as I delineated above, God has made it clear in the Bible that homosexual marriage is undesireable (at best), why wouldn't we accept that?
Rachel

 

[JesusWalks78]

God has made it clear in the Bible that homosexual marriage is undesireable (at best), why wouldn't we accept that?
Rachel

Becasue people want to feel good aboput disobeying God.

 

[Exhausted]

I've never heard God audibly speak. There are those who have (but they've been dead for centuries). The idea is that once the cannon of Scripture was fulfilled, we had all we needed to believe, if we wish. God doesn't speak to us directly, but through His word (the Bible, His letter to us). If, as I delineated above, God has made it clear in the Bible that homosexual marriage is undesireable (at best), why wouldn't we accept that?
Rachel

Because it was the Bible, claiming divine truth, which made this clear. (Even though it actually didn't make this clear in the Bible at all.) Unless I get it straight from the big man, or perhaps some guy who can levitate and turn water to wine, I don't see any reason to assume God had anything to do with the Bible.

 

[TracerBullet]

I make no excuse for this statement. I believe that any sexual relationship not created by God (marriage) is therefore created by man. That which is created by man will always be lesser than that which God creates. Therefore, I do not single out homosexual relationships, but also premarital sexual relationships and extramarital sexual relationships. Any sexual relationship outside of God's choice is less than that which is within His choice.

Now…I need you to take this statement and apply it to interracial couples (don’t argue…just do it) now apply it to inter-religious couples…now apply it to non-Christian couples.

Are you willing to call the relationship interracial couples have as “less than marriage”?
What about inter-religious couples?

Why not?

Why is it acceptable denounce the relationship of one minority but not so another minority?

How are you able to justify claiming you treat “people as people” yet at the same time treat one minority as less than yourself?

God commanded not marrying outside ones' religion.

Are the marriages of non-Christians “less”?

He made His opposition to gay sex clear (near as I can figure) while nearly commanding that married couples not deny each other (for more than a specified time for prayer).

I can only cite the famous quote:
“The Bible contains six admonishments to homosexuals and 362 admonishments to heterosexuals. That doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals. It's just that they need more supervision.” ~Lynn Lavner

Thus, I can only suppose that homosexual marriage is outside God's ideal.

But in the end it is still an assumption.

Can you provide a specific verse stating such?

While there is clear language against marrying someone of a different religion (unless a conversion is made), there is no suggestion that marrying someone of a different race/nation who believes the same as you do is wrong. As a matter of fact, the line of Christ Himself has at least two "inter-race" marriages (Rahab and Salmon, Ruth and Boaz). Believing that interrace marriage is wrong is simply not Biblical. Believing that homosexual or inter-religious marriage is wrong comes from the Bible.


Rachel

That is also a matter of interpretation. Racists have interpreted bible verses to denounce such marriages.

Can you explain why your personal interpretation is correct and their personal interpretation is wrong?

 

[TracerBullet]

God has made it clear in the Bible that homosexual marriage is undesireable (at best), why wouldn't we accept that?
Rachel

Once again can you site a specific verse forbidding same sex marriage?