Great tribulation, then rapture

[tonychanyt]

Matthew 24:

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Christians will experience the great tribulation.

How long will the great tribulation last?

I don't know exactly, but it counts in days, not years.

Would you know if you were in the early stages of tribulation?

Only with hindsight:

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

One can even include possible redeemable people on other planets.

More detail of the 2nd coming is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

John 6:

40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Revelation 1:

7 Look, he is coming with the clouds, and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all peoples on earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.

John 5:

28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

2 Peter 3:

12b the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

The following seems to be the chronological order of events:

1. The great tribulation
2. 2nd coming of Christ on the clouds on the last day
3. The dead in Christ resurrected
4. Live believers caught up (rapture).
5. The wicked resurrected for judgment
6. Both believers and unbelievers witness Christ coming on the clouds
7. Believers comes down from the clouds to the earth with Jesus
8. End of physical days, space-time dimensions changed
9. New heavens and new earth established.

As for the millennium reign, I assume it is only symbolic and not literal.

In the 19th century, John Darby placed rapture before the great tribulation. He described a secret coming (rapture) to gather believers, followed by a visible return at the end of the tribulation period. In the 20th century, this doctrine was exploited by the Left Behind film series. I do not put much weight on this doctrine.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

One can even include possible redeemable people on other planets.

What are you talking about?

The following seems to be the chronological order of events:

1. The great tribulation
2. 2nd coming of Christ on the clouds on the last day
3. The dead in Christ resurrected
4. Live believers caught up (rapture).
5. The wicked resurrected for judgment
6. End of physical days, space-time dimensions changed
7. New heavens and new earth established.

As for the millennium reign, presently I assume it is only symbolic and not literal.

I agree with this except you left out the part about the living wicked being killed when Christ comes again (Matthew 24:37-39, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Revelation 19:11-21, etc.).

By the way, this post should be in the End times/eschatology forum.

 

[Offline4Better.]

Yeah, this belongs in the End Times / Eschatology forum.

 

[tonychanyt]

What are you talking about?

See Alien life on other planets and follow up there.

I agree with this except you left out the part about the living wicked being killed when Christ comes again (Matthew 24:37-39, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Revelation 19:11-21, etc.).

Thanks for the reference. This is how to do referencing and quotation in a scholarly manner:

1. Display and indent the relevant text.
2. Selectively bold the particular keywords that are important to your point. There is no need to bold the entire sentence. Have a laser-sharp focus.
3. Be concise and precise to the point. No need to quote the whole paragraph.

I do this for others who read my posts. It is a standard high-school scholarship. If you practice this, I guarantee it will sharpen your analytical thinking. In any case, no one is required to do it. I prefer to debate with people who do.

By the way, this post should be in the End times/eschatology forum.

Sure. How can I move the thread over?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

See Alien life on other planets and follow up there.



Thanks for the reference. This is how to do referencing and quotation in a scholarly manner:

1. Display and indent the relevant text.
2. Selectively bold the particular keywords that are important to your point. There is no need to bold the entire sentence. Have a laser-sharp focus.
3. Be concise and precise to the point. No need to quote the whole paragraph.

I do this for others who read my posts. It is a standard high-school scholarship. If you practice this, I guarantee it will sharpen your analytical thinking. In any case, no one is required to do it. I prefer to debate with people who do.

I don't need a lesson in how to post. I have been doing this for many years now. I assumed that you were familiar with the passages I referenced so didn't think I needed to quote them. Was I wrong to assume that?

What is your understanding of this passage?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Do you believe this passage is talking about what will occur on the day that Christ returns?

Sure. How can I move the thread over?

I'm not sure. I think a moderator would have to do that. I went ahead and reported your post and left a comment asking someone to move the thread to the eschatology forum.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

This thread was moved from Bibliography to Eschatology. It fits better here.

Carry on

​

 

[Clare73]

The following seems to be the chronological order of events:

1. The great tribulation
2. 2nd coming of Christ on the clouds on the last day
3. The dead in Christ resurrected
4. Live believers caught up (rapture).
5. The wicked resurrected for judgment

In context, the resurrection of all mankind occurs and then the rapture of the saints--both the resurrected and those still alive.

As for the millennium reign, presently I assume it is only symbolic and not literal.

 

[Jan001]

Matthew 24: 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Christians will experience the great tribulation.

1st century Christians did experience this great tribulation.

As for the millennium reign, presently I assume it is only symbolic and not literal.

The spiritual millennial reign began shortly after Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension.

Mark 16:19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he spoke to them, was taken up into heaven and took his seat at the right hand of God.

Acts 5:31 God exalted him at his right hand as leader and savior to grant Israel repentance and forgiveness of sins.

Hebrews 10:12 But this one offered one sacrifice for sins, and took his seat forever at the right hand of God;

1 Peter 3:22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

2 Timothy 2:12 if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us.

Revelation 20:4-6 Then I saw thrones; those who sat on them were entrusted with judgment. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image nor had accepted its mark on their foreheads or hands. They came to life and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over.)This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over these; they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for [the] thousand years.

Jesus opened the gates of heaven after his death, and the righteous spirits in Hades (Abraham's bosom) entered into heaven and they are reigning with him now, and they will reign with him until the time of his second coming.


Mark 12:36 David himself, inspired by the holy Spirit, said: ‘The Lord said to my lord, “Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies under your feet.”’

1 Corinthians 15:21-28 For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead came also through a human being. 22 For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life, 23 but each one in proper order: Christ the firstfruits; then, at his coming, those who belong to Christ; 24 then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has destroyed every sovereignty and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death, 27 for “he subjected everything under his feet.” But when it says that everything has been subjected, it is clear that it excludes the one who subjected everything to him. 28 When everything is subjected to him, then the Son himself will [also] be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all.

At the sound of the last trumpet, the power of Jesus' second coming will destroy death forever.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in an instant, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For that which is corruptible must clothe itself with incorruptibility, and that which is mortal must clothe itself with immortality. 54 And when this which is corruptible clothes itself with incorruptibility and this which is mortal clothes itself with immortality, then the word that is written shall come about: “Death is swallowed up in victory.


1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Jesus will reign from heaven until his second coming/Judgment Day.

Jesus physically comes to earth only two times.
The first time he came as a helpless baby. As an adult, he died to redeem mankind from Adam's sin.
The second time he will come as King and Lord of the universe.

Hebrews 9:28 so also Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to take away sin but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await him.

 

[tonychanyt]

1st century Christians did experience this great tribulation.

Will there be another great tribulation in the future?

 

[Douggg]

Christians will experience the great tribulation.

There will be Christians who will experience the great tribulation. But only those Christians who miss the rapture, or become Christians after rapture.

The great tribulation will be the last 1335 days of the 7 years 70th week of Daniel 9:27.

The 1335 day great tribulation will end the day that Jesus returns. The great tribulation will not go beyond 1335 days or else all life on earth would be wiped out because of its intensity.

The great tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation, a statue image of the beast-king, is placed on the temple mount. The length of the 1335 days comes from Daniel 12:11-12.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

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I don't want overwhelm you with this one post. But basically there is coming in the next 6 years, the Gog/Magog attack on Israel, by Russia and Muslim allies. God destroys their armies. Right after Gog/Magog, the 7 year 70th week begins, during which the last 1335 days will be the great tribulaiton.

The rapture to miss the great tribulation could happen anytime, between right this very second and the middle part of the 7 years.

 

[keras]

There will be Christians who will experience the great tribulation. But only those Christians who miss the rapture, or become Christians after rapture.

This is pure speculative rubbish.
All the Christian peoples will be on earth during the 1260 day, 42 month, or 3 1/2 year period of world control by the Beast. Rev 13:5-7
Some will be kept safe on earth, and the rest will face persecution and the effects of the GT. Revelation 12:14 & 17

The rapture to miss the great tribulation could happen anytime, between right this very second and the middle part of the 7 years.

What will happen any time, is the sudden, shocking and unexpected worldwide disaster of the Sixth Seal event.
No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. John 3:13 Jesus' Words, believe Him, or believe fables.

 

[Douggg]

No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. John 3:13 Jesus' Words, believe Him, or believe fables.

No, verse 13 is not written in future tense, in the King James Version bible. Nor saying that no-one will be raptured to heaven.

Jesus was simply saying that no-one before his coming down to earth (born into this world as the Son of man) has gone to heaven to understand those things in heaven ordained by God. Verse 12 is a rhetorical question, as Jesus continued in verse 14-16, as he talked to Nicodemus, about the heavenly things of God's plan of salvation and thus receiving eternal life.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John the Apostle later in life was called up to heaven by Jesus Himself and shown things that would take place in the future at the time when Jesus returns to this earth. John recorded what he was shown and told, and is the book of Revelation in the bible.

There is a separate thread for debating the rapture, to further discuss that topic. Please do not take this thread off the topic of when is the great tribulation. You have stated your point of view. So back to when the great tribulation will take place.

VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

Seems that most people don't believe in a pre trib hope. RIght yes if you believe in a pretrib hope, or no if you believe the word doesn't teach this

www.christianforums.com

 

[Jan001]

Will there be another great tribulation in the future?

There will be persecution for Christ's followers until he returns at his second coming.

Jesus stated that the great tribulation would be in his listeners' lifetime, in the first century AD. He said that no other tribulation would ever be as great as the one that they would be experiencing.

Matthew 24:16-28 When you see the desolating abomination (Roman Armies) spoken of through Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place (surrounding Jerusalem) (let the reader understand), 16 then those in Judea must flee to the mountains, 17 a person on the housetop must not go down to get things out of his house, 18 a person in the field must not return to get his cloak. 19 Woe to pregnant women and nursing mothers in those days. 20 Pray that your flight not be in winter or on the sabbath, 21 for at that time there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will be. 22 And if those days had not been shortened, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect they will be shortened. 23 If anyone says to you then, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 False messiahs and false prophets will arise, and they will perform signs and wonders so great as to deceive, if that were possible, even the elect. 25 Behold, I have told it to you beforehand. 26 So if they say to you, ‘He is in the desert,’ do not go out there; if they say, ‘He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For just as lightning comes from the east and is seen as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

Luke 21:20-21 When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, know that its desolation is at hand. 21 Then those in Judea must flee to the mountains. Let those within the city escape from it, and let those in the countryside not enter the city,

 

[Douggg]

There will be persecution for Christ's followers until he returns at his second coming.

Jesus stated that the great tribulation would be in his listeners' lifetime, in the first century AD. He said that no other tribulation would ever be as great as the one that they would be experiencing.

Matthew 24:16-28 When you see the desolating abomination (Roman Armies) spoken of through Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place (surrounding Jerusalem) (let the reader understand), 16 then those in Judea must flee to the mountains, 17 a person on the housetop must not go down to get things out of his house, 18 a person in the field must not return to get his cloak. 19 Woe to pregnant women and nursing mothers in those days. 20 Pray that your flight not be in winter or on the sabbath, 21 for at that time there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will be. 22 And if those days had not been shortened, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect they will be shortened. 23 If anyone says to you then, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 False messiahs and false prophets will arise, and they will perform signs and wonders so great as to deceive, if that were possible, even the elect. 25 Behold, I have told it to you beforehand. 26 So if they say to you, ‘He is in the desert,’ do not go out there; if they say, ‘He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For just as lightning comes from the east and is seen as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

Luke 21:20-21 When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, know that its desolation is at hand. 21 Then those in Judea must flee to the mountains. Let those within the city escape from it, and let those in the countryside not enter the city,

Jan001, Jesus gave the same instructions for the 70 AD event in Luke 21:20-21 and the end times event in 24:15-21 for when the great tribulation happens.

Jesus did not say that the great tribulation would take place in first century. But before the parable of the fig tree generation would pass away. We are living in that generation.

 

[Jan001]

All the Christian peoples will be on earth during the 1260 day, 42 month, or 3 1/2 year period of world control by the Beast. Rev 13:5-7
Some will be kept safe on earth, and the rest will face persecution and the effects of the GT. Revelation 12:14 & 17

What will happen any time, is the sudden, shocking and unexpected worldwide disaster of the Sixth Seal event.

This 42 month time period was in the first century AD.
Most of the Book of Revelation was fulfilled in the first century AD. The Roman armies (Daniel's abomination of desolation) sieged Jerusalem for 42 months. It destroyed it and its temple within this 42 months. The beast was Rome/Roman empire. The harlot was Jerusalem/Jews. Most of the Jews rejected Jesus Christ as their Savior. God destroyed them and their temple as their punishment. Matthew 24:15, Luke 21:20

The 70th Week of Daniel was fulfilled in the first century AD.
Daniel's 70 Weeks encompassed the building of the second temple which took 7 weeks, and the destruction of the second temple in the 70th week. 62 weeks of temple worship were allotted to the Israelites/Jews before their heaven and earth (temple) was destroyed.

 

[tonychanyt]

Jesus stated that the great tribulation would be in his listeners' lifetime, in the first century AD.

See This GENERATION will not pass away until all these things take place and follow up there

 

[Jan001]

Jan001, Jesus gave the same instructions for the 70 AD event in Luke 21:20-21 and the end times event in 24:15-21 for when the great tribulation happens.

Same event. Matthew 24's great tribulation was for that particular generation of his listeners, not for ours nor for any others in the future.

Jesus did not say that the great tribulation would take place in first century. But before the parable of the fig tree generation would pass away. We are living in that generation.

The fig tree passed away in the first century AD.

Luke 13:6-9 And he told them this parable: “There once was a person who had a fig tree planted in his orchard, and when he came in search of fruit on it but found none, 7 he said to the gardener, ‘For three years now I have come in search of fruit on this fig tree but have found none. [So] cut it down. Why should it exhaust the soil?’ 8 He said to him in reply, ‘Sir, leave it for this year also, and I shall cultivate the ground around it and fertilize it; 9 it may bear fruit in the future. If not you can cut it down.’”

Jesus preached to the Jews for over 3 years and most of them still rejected him as their Messiah. So Jesus took the kingdom of God away from the unbelieving Jews and gave it to the Gentiles who would choose to believe in him.

Matthew 21:19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went over to it, but found nothing on it except leaves. And he said to it, “May no fruit ever come from you again.” And immediately the fig tree withered.

Matthew 21:42-44
Jesus said to them, “Did you never read in the scriptures:
‘The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
by the Lord has this been done,
and it is wonderful in our eyes’?
43 Therefore, I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people that will produce its fruit. 44 [The one who falls on this stone will be dashed to pieces; and it will crush anyone on whom it falls.]”

 

[Jan001]

See This GENERATION will not pass away until all these things take place and follow up there

THIS generation was the generation that Jesus preached to in person.

 

[tonychanyt]

THIS generation was the generation that Jesus preached to in person.

Let proposition P1 = There will be a great tribulation in the future.

True?

 

[Clare73]

1st century Christians did experience this great tribulation.

The spiritual millennial reign began shortly after Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension.

Or did it begin during his ministry:
"But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you." (Mt 12:28, Lk 11:20)

And indeed, it is a spiritual kingdom, invisible and within (Lk 17:20-21), set up in their hearts and consciences (Ro 8:17).
We are now reigning with Christ (Eph 2:6) in his kingdom (Lk 22:9, Eph 1:19-22, Mk 14:62, 16:19, Ro 8:34, 1 Co 5:25, Col 3:1, Heb 1:3, 8:1, 10:12-13, 12:2, 1Pe 3:22, Rev 1:6, Ps 2:6 w/Heb 12:22)

Mark 16:19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he spoke to them, was taken up into heaven and took his seat at the right hand of God.
Acts 5:31 God exalted him at his right hand as leader and savior to grant Israel repentance and forgiveness of sins.
Hebrews 10:12 But this one offered one sacrifice for sins, and took his seat forever at the , hand of God;
1 Peter 3:22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.
2 Timothy 2:12 if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us.
Revelation 20:4-6 Then I saw thrones; those who sat on them were entrusted with judgment. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image nor had accepted its mark on their foreheads or hands. They came to life and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over.)This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over these; they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for [the] thousand years.
Jesus opened the gates of heaven after his death, and the righteous spirits in Hades (Abraham's bosom) entered into heaven and they are reigning with him now, and they will reign with him until the time of his second coming.

Mark 12:36 David himself, inspired by the holy Spirit, said: ‘The Lord said to my lord, “Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies under your feet.”’

1 Corinthians 15:21-28 For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead came also through a human being. 22 For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life, 23 but each one in proper order: Christ the firstfruits; then, at his coming, those who belong to Christ; 24 then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has destroyed every sovereignty and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death, 27 for “he subjected everything under his feet.” But when it says that everything has been subjected, it is clear that it excludes the one who subjected everything to him. 28 When everything is subjected to him, then the Son himself will [also] be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all.

At the sound of the last trumpet, the power of Jesus' second coming will destroy death forever.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in an instant, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For that which is corruptible must clothe itself with incorruptibility, and that which is mortal must clothe itself with immortality. 54 And when this which is corruptible clothes itself with incorruptibility and this which is mortal clothes itself with immortality, then the word that is written shall come about: “Death is swallowed up in victory.


1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Jesus will reign from heaven until his second coming/Judgment Day.

Jesus physically comes to earth only two times.
The first time he came as a helpless baby. As an adult, he died to redeem mankind from Adam's sin.
The second time he will come as King and Lord of the universe.

Hebrews 9:28 so also Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to take away sin but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await him.