When is the beast destroyed and thrown into the fire ?

[jeffweedaman]

Some say that there will be a surviving third group of the "remnant" that will rejoin with those raptured and/or resurrected, when Christ finally returns and just doesn't only just appear to at first to only just resurrect and rapture at first, etc, but that who did not ever take the mark of the beast, etc, who will be rejoining them all at that time, when Christ sets up His rule and reign on earth after all the mass devastation and death and destruction is pretty much over-with, etc, which doesn't take all that long of a time after His first appearing and resurrecting/rapturing at first, etc...

And some say that last part causes it, etc... But that there will be a surviving "remnant", that were not immediately raptured along with the others at first, etc...

"Some say", etc...

And I don't know if they are right, but I got to tell you, I'm making contingency plans for either, or both, or all three, etc...

God Bless!

Some may say that ( whatever it was that you said) but the word doesnt say it.

The names from all tribes and tongues in the Lambs book of life are seen as one flock.
So you can forget about the possibility of there ever being a third group.



Jn 10
15 just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice; and they will become one flock, with one shepherd.

Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel and a remnant of them became the Church.
Jesus then sent them to every other people on earth who became one with them in Jesus.

 

[Timtofly]

The first mistake you are making is placing events where they don't fit. Those verses you bring up in Revelation 14 are meaning during the time recorded in Revelation 13:5. What is recorded in Revelation 18 is meaning at the end of the 42 months recorded in Revelation 13:5. The fact it makes zero sense that saints are still being martyred once the 2nd coming takes place, this alone proves you are placing events where they don't fit. The chronology of events appear to be like such. Saints are being persecuted and martyred. Eventually all of that is fulfilled, which then leads to what is recorded in Revelation 18 and 19. No saints are still being martyred during the events recorded in ch 18 and 19. Anyone being killed during those events would not be saints who refuse to worship the beast, but would be the ones worshiping it instead.

Matthew 24 shows that there are 2 time periods that precede the 2nd coming. The first time period being the trib of those days, IOW the GT. The 2nd time period being when the sun goes dark, etc. The verses you brought up from Revelation 14 fit during the first time period. What you brought up from Revelation 18 fits during the 2nd time period.

IOW, Matthew 24:15-26 is meaning the first time period. Matthew 24:29 is meaning the 2nd time period. Where then Matthew 24:30 records the 2nd coming.

Matthew 24:29 is the opening of the 6th Seal. This is the Second Coming months before the events in Revelation 13 and on. Christ according to Himself in Matthew comes in the 6th Seal Revelation 6:12-14

12 Then I watched as he broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake, the sun turned black as sackcloth worn in mourning, and the full moon became blood-red.
13 The stars fell from heaven to earth just as a fig tree drops its figs when shaken by a strong wind.
14 The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.

Matthew 24:29-30

29 “But immediately following the trouble of those times,

the sun will grow dark,
the moon will stop shining,
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers in heaven will be shaken.

30 “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, all the tribes of the Land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with tremendous power and glory.

The trouble times is the 4th Seal Revelation 6:7-8

7 When he broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living being say, “Go!”
8 I looked, and there in front of me was a pallid, sickly-looking horse. Its rider’s name was Death, and Sh’ol followed behind him. They were given authority to kill one-quarter of the world by war, by famine, by plagues and with the wild animals of the earth.

Almost 2 billion people dying at the same event, 25% of humanity is a very troublesome time. This is before any Trumpets. It will get worse.

 

[Neogaia777]

Some may say that ( whatever it was that you said) but the word doesnt say it.

The names from all tribes and tongues in the Lambs book of life are see as one flock.
So you can forget about the possibility of there ever being a third group.



Jn 10
15 just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice; and they will become one flock, with one shepherd.

Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel and a remnant of them became the Church.
Jesus then sent them to every other people on earth who became one with them in Jesus.

Just do a simple google search of "remnant in the bible", I did, and just read some of them, etc, very insightful, etc...

Bibleinfo was especially good, etc, it was the second or third result I think...

They are all pretty good though, the top ones, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Timtofly]

So when Revelation 14:8 says “Babylon is fallen, is fallen” and Revelation 18:2 says “Babylon is fallen, is fallen”; we should interpret this as two events separated by 42 months?

Revelation 14 is written as if the 42 months did not even exist. Their outcomes are the same event. The 7th Trumpet is an 8 day event. Sunday to Sunday. It last from 6pm on a Saturday evening to 6pm the next Sunday. That is Jewish time keeping set up by God in Genesis 1. The 7th Trumpet sounds for the whole 8 days. Revelation 10:7

7 "on the contrary, in the days of the sound from the seventh angel when he sounds his shofar, the hidden plan of God will be brought to completion, the Good News as he proclaimed it to his servants the prophets.”

Revelation 14 is the final Sunday if no 42 month period.

Revelation 19 which is the final scene of the vials in Revelation 16, explained about in Revelation 17 and 18, then is realized in Revelation 19. This last hour on a Sunday from 5pm to 6pm is the battle of Armageddon if there is a 42 month period.

The week is cut in half on Wednesday. 42 months later to a Wednesday, the 2 witnesses are killed which ends the 42 months and then they lay dead on a Thursday (6pm Wednesday evening) until early Sunday morning. 3.5 days. They lay there during the 7 vials. Then they leave and that afternoon all humanity left on earth is gathered at Megiddo for the battle of Armageddon.

The hidden plan of God will not be complete until the 7th Trumpet finishes either way. All in Adam must die to complete this plan. Revelation 14 has all dead. Revelation 19 has all dead.

These cannot be two separate events. Humanity cannot die twice.

Only one explanation is that Satan's 42 months is not set in stone. It may not even happen even though John witnessed it. I think even literally. John lived both events and placed chapter 14 in the right place. Revelation 13 will still try to happen with one exception. Revelation 13:7

7 it was allowed to make war on God’s holy people and to defeat them; and it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.

This is the Wednesday event. If the 42 months do not happen, chapter 13 ends here. Then chapter 14. Satan is not allowed to defeat the saints and is not given any authority. On Sunday, 4 days later, it is all over according to Revelation 14.

Revelation 20 will still happen, because those resurrected will be the sheep and wheat of the final harvest with the Lamb on the earth. Satan is still bound. The rest of the dead in Revelation 14 will still wait. Revelation 17 and 18 is still the end of babel, and Adam's descendants. Since Satan has no authority the vials are not needed to be poured out onto his kingdom.

 

[Timtofly]

The context is the people gathered there at Armageddon not the entire planet. Jesus does the killing there and it's done there, not all over the Earth.

Have you forgotten the fact that the rule over the nations is written in the future tense to the present tense events of the battle of Armageddon? The killing is all happening at that time but the rule over the nations happens after those events which proves many people are not killed but are ruled over and the word rule means to care for like a shepherd over a flock.







It does not say they are killed the day of the second coming plus in that passage the punishment of everlasting destruction is also in the future tense so also not happening the day of the second coming. People need to learn to study and understand the verb tenses to know when things happen and do not happen.


2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:



This verb is in the present tense and so this “taking vengeance” happens during the second coming.


2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

“shall be punished” is in the FUTURE TENSE which means that the everlasting destruction ie: GWTJ/LOF is NOT happening at the second coming but is a FUTURE event after the second coming which is fuklly Premill.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Interlinear: who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

You can verify in the link above that the verb tisousin is in the future tense: verb tense: future indicative active.






The bible only tells us that the nations will be ruled over after the events of the second coming. It doesn't say why they were allowed to survive but one important thing is they are not part of the Beast's army that is gathered at Armageddon. That alone keeps them alive because everyone gathered at that place will be killed.

The problem with this view and post millennial view is the desolation and sin cursed earth.

All Adam's flesh has to die to remove sin from the earth. Amil do not allow for a restoration period. They claim Christ hands God a burnt offering, except offerings are OT economy, not the restoration of the Atonement. The resurrection of Revelation 20 is all nations and Israel. Isreal are the sheep of the harvest. The Nations are the wheat harvested in the 7 Thunders. The church of today is too adamant like the older brother in the parable of the Prodigal son. Israel is the Prodigal and the church is the older brother. The 7th Trumpet is the eradication of all sin and all sinful flesh. The only thing amil get right. Me agreeing with them is like agreeing with a toothache. They hurt and need to be replaced.

 

[jeffweedaman]

Just do a simple google search of "remnant in the bible", I did, and just read some of them, etc, very insightful, etc...

Bibleinfo was especially good, etc, it was the second or third result I think...

They are all pretty good though, the top ones, etc...

God Bless!

Remnant | Bibleinfo.com

 

[jeffweedaman]

All Adam's flesh has to die to remove sin from the earth.

No
Jesus had to die to remove sin from the earth.
Adams blood which is also our fleshy blood will never remove the sin .

[ Quote Tim
Amil do not allow for a restoration period. ]



Amill believes the restoration period occurs while the Lord remains in heaven. ( act 3 )

The restoration period is all about the people of the world coming to FAITH and santification through the Spirit, before he appears again a second time.


[ Quote tim
They claim Christ hands God a burnt offering, ]

News to me. Where do you get this nonsense.?

 

[Timtofly]

You answered it yourself: The book of Revelation is not all chronological.

None of the seals are action happening when a seal is opened. All the seals do is show things that are going to happen during the trumps. Jesus doesn't return to Earth after opening the 6th seal. He is still in heaven opening the 7th seal. It is the trumps that sound for actions to take place. That's the historic use of trumpets in battle. The seals are more like pre-war battle plans while the trumps actually cause things to happen.

John does not state it is opened in heaven. There was silence in heaven, because it was empty.

If you read Revelation 7 it does not take place in heaven. The 144k are sealed on the earth.

Now the debate on where Paradise is, thus beginneth. We are never ever told where Paradise is, although some argue about Paul and the third heaven.

In the 6th Seal heaven is literally gone. This is not a suggestion. If it is a suggestion, humans would have non-stop been crying in terror the first time they read it. How can a suggestion change figuratively at a single point in time with an act of the opening, and still be a suggestion without reality?

The skies changing in the 6th Seal literally happen at that moment and the temple of God is literally seen as on earth. It is literally the removal of the spiritual veil over our eyes. Paradise could be literally physically here on earth and we do not even realize it. I think it may be about 500 ft. above if I had a guess. Just out of sight and some clouds can exist quite nicely at 500 ft.

Every one on earth will know God on the throne and the Lamb the instant the 6th Seal is opened. The living church will be changed and immediately appear in Paradise and then even more of humanity will be newly afraid because they are now still standing on earth when they thought they would be standing in Paradise.

That may not have sunk in when the 1st century reader read it. 1990 years later in church history is a different story. When it actually happens humans will immediately want to die, especially those who argued about it in chat rooms for 22 years.

Gathering with Satan at the battle of Armageddon is certainly not one of terror looking at the one on the white horse. It is defiance that drives this Satanic army.

 

[Neogaia777]

Remnant | Bibleinfo.com

Did you even read it or get to the end of it, etc...?

Anyway, a lot them pretty much say the same thing, there is always a surviving remnant after a great catastrophe or calamity, that managed to survive after a great catastrophe or calamity, etc...

It's just a part of God's history, etc...

Anyway, I suggest the idea that they might join or re-join those that Christ brings with Him, maybe back to the earth again with Him, after that, etc...

Which won't be a very long period of time, etc...

But will be "hell" for a very short while, temporarily, etc...

But if your not killed, or raptured, and can last long enough after that, etc, (and God will have to probably maybe even supernaturally protect you, and sustain and preserve you, etc), anyway, you might rejoin those ones He originally took, but brings almost immediately right back with Him after that, etc...

Maybe anyway, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Timtofly]

Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

This has to fit somewhere. As to verse 10, does that look like something that might be taking place during the last 7 vials of wrath? Of course not. The vials of wrath have to follow the events recorded in verse 10, not parallel them

I understand and agree with most of your posts. I would like to point out that being 2 days after Christmas and all, giving gifts is temporary. The excitement builds for weeks. 30 minutes after, most have forgotten it is Christmas.

The celebration will not last 3 days. In fact the reason they leave the bodies alone would be the vials of God's wrath poured out. An hour after their deaths and giving gifts online is a very short time process, the followers of Satan will have forgotten even who they are. We are so different from 1st century readers. We can understand the nuances if instant gratification and instant moving from one fad to another. John would not have even been able to write like we think today without leaving them in unbelief. He had to slow the narrative down somewhat to help them understand what is rather simple to us.

It amazes me to think some here cannot see the simple chronology of Revelation. And most try to even think like a 1st century person to understand John. He was writing about us, and we still cannot figure it out. Some have given up, and claim it is not about us.

Some make it so figurative, it is nothing but a fiction story. It is about nothing, except what they want it to say. Which is still nothing. Do not want to offend any one's sensibilities, so just dumb it down to everyone's level or give up and declare it a mystery. That way no one gets hurt with the nitty gritty truth.

The fact alone that a different percentage of humanity dies in each set of judgments has to be enough evidence to point out they are chronological and back to back. I am afraid that some have an eschatology that drives their interpretation and of course a certain view will have to make Revelation read a certain way to avoid any contradictions to their eschatology.

 

[jeffweedaman]

Did you even read it or get to the end of it, etc...?

Yes I did. It was a good read.

[ Quote Neogaia

Anyway, a lot them pretty much say the same thing, there is always a surviving remnant after a great catastrophe or calamity, that managed to survive after a great catastrophe or calamity, etc...]




This is because names have been written in the book of life since the foundation of the world. Noah is the perfect example of the global catastrophe that is to come to save the remnant., and how God preserved him. The remnant today are saved / preserved through his Gospel.



[ Quote Neo
Anyway, I suggest the idea that they might join or re-join those that Christ brings with Him, maybe back to the earth again with Him, after that, etc...

Which won't be a very long period of time, etc...

But will be "hell" for a very short while, temporarily, etc...

But if your not killed, or raptured, and can last long enough after that, etc, (and God will have to probably maybe even supernaturally protect you, and sustain and preserve you, etc), anyway, you might rejoin those ones He originally took, but brings almost immediately right back with Him after that, etc...

Maybe anyway, etc...]

Maybe not, God bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

Yes I did. It was a good read.

[ Quote Neogaia

Anyway, a lot them pretty much say the same thing, there is always a surviving remnant after a great catastrophe or calamity, that managed to survive after a great catastrophe or calamity, etc...]




This is because names have been written in the book of life since the foundation of the world. Noah is the perfect example of the global catastrophe that is to come to save the remnant., and how God preserved him. The remnant today are saved / preserved through his Gospel.



[ Quote Neo
Anyway, I suggest the idea that they might join or re-join those that Christ brings with Him, maybe back to the earth again with Him, after that, etc...

Which won't be a very long period of time, etc...

But will be "hell" for a very short while, temporarily, etc...

But if your not killed, or raptured, and can last long enough after that, etc, (and God will have to probably maybe even supernaturally protect you, and sustain and preserve you, etc), anyway, you might rejoin those ones He originally took, but brings almost immediately right back with Him after that, etc...

Maybe anyway, etc...]

Maybe not, God bless.

Your maybe right, "maybe not", maybe, etc, but I like to be prepared for anything if I can be, etc, both spiritually, mentally, emotionally, physically, etc, or in any and/or all or any cases, and in any kind of way I can be, etc, but the rest will always be up to God of course, and "of course and always", etc, I will never loose nor forsake my dependence on Him in all things, etc...

And if one or the other turns out to be not necessary or not needed in the end, then I don't ever really truly consider it a waste or a loss, etc...

Glad you enjoyed the read....

God Bless!

 

[Timtofly]

No
Jesus had to die to remove sin from the earth.
Adams blood which is also our fleshy blood will never remove the sin .

[ Quote Tim
Amil do not allow for a restoration period. ]



Amill believes the restoration period occurs while the Lord remains in heaven. ( act 3 )

The restoration period is all about the people of the world coming to FAITH and santification through the Spirit, before he appears again a second time.


[ Quote tim
They claim Christ hands God a burnt offering, ]

News to me. Where do you get this nonsense.?

Sin is still here, or we would not even be talking about it. The Atonement in 30AD placed all humanity in the Lamb's book of life at that moment, and then the Lamb's book of life was placed into eternity outside of creation. It was created in 30AD. In eternity it was prior to creation. When it comes to Atonement all were atoned. When it comes to physical reality each individual on their own has the opportunity to reject or accept. Sin still reigns from Adam to the Cross. Sin still exists from the Cross to the 7th Trumpet.

Sin was addressed at the Cross. If you claim sin ceased to exist then, that goes against all NT authors. They all still struggled with sin.

The burnt offering? The claim that all is burned up at the Second Coming and instantly, immediately, no ifs, ands, nor objections. Literally all that is left is a burnt offering. Do you object to such utter destruction? Amil do not accept objections.

 

[jeffweedaman]

Your maybe right, "maybe not", maybe, etc, but I like to be prepared for anything if I can be, etc, both spiritually, mentally, emotionally, physically, etc, or in any and/or all or any cases, and in any kind of way I can be, etc, but the rest will always be up to God of course, and "of course and always", etc, I will never loose nor forsake my dependence on Him in all things, etc...
God Bless!

Nothing prepares you more than knowing that the Lord is going to take eternal vengeance on those who have rejected his words when he comes to glorify his own at this appearing.

You must be ready through perseverence so that you will be able to stand before him on that day.


Lk 21
33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

34 “Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap; 35 for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth. 36 But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

 

[lazyservantofYahweh]

The ones who are not redeemable are the goats. Otherwise, the share of those who decided to believe in His name (Yahweh Yahuwshua) later is in the lake of fire. But the Many do not go there, rather they go to showl until they resurrect. Please go to www.yahuwshua.org to study more and download scriptures (Purer Scriptures for the REMNANT)

 

[Zao is life]

Hi
What satisfies me is the fact that all not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will follow the beast.



All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.




“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.



And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


Not seeing any exceptions to this.

But the Revelation makes a distinction between those who dwell on the earth and those who dwell n the sea:

"Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and those tabernacling in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and in the sea! For the Devil came down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has but a little time." Revelation 12:12

It doesn't say all who dwell in the earth and in the sea who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

It's not that I think you are wrong and I am right about this, but I do think that we need to consider all the Bible says about an issue, so isolating one statement in scripture and interpreting the entire message in the light of it, while ignoring the facts produced by what other parts of scripture say which contradict the conclusion, does not produce adequate exegesis.

There are enough records to show the earliest church believed in a literal thousand years, and it's also spoken of very clearly in the epistle of Barnabus, which though not in the Canon, is a very early Christian writing and was accepted as sacred by some of the ECF.

Aside from that, the Revelation itself makes it very clear that those who lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years had been beheaded for their refusal to worship the beast, which, if the thousand years were symbolic of the entire age, places their beheading at the close of the thousand years - so they could not have reigned with Christ a thousand years if they were beheaded at the close of the thousand years.

There are many scriptures which need to be considered and when we still don't know for sure, then we don't know. So isolating one piece of scripture to reach a conclusion while ignoring many others which contradict the conclusion, does not suffice, IMO.

Neither does it suffice to say I am right and you are wrong, or you are right and I am wrong.

 

[claninja]

Do we all agree that this happens at the Lords second coming?

If so , what happens to those who have followed him at this time?

Scripture in Rev states....,


All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.



And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.



“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.


Rev 14
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”




Those not in the book of life from the foundation of the world , will follow the beast, and those who follow the beast are thrown into the fire....at his coming.


So who could possibily populate a future millennial reign when Jesus comes again a second time to destroy the beast?

All whose names are not in the book of life from the foundation of the world right up until his coming will have their part in the LOF that was prepared for the devil and his beast angels.

How can one possibly introduce a third group , (who never had their names written in the book of life from the foundation of the world , and avoided the mark of the beast ) , that survives to populate a future period of time after the Lord comes again??

ISTM, that the beast of revelation is related to the horn of Daniel chapter 7, as both blaspheme God, both persecute the saints, and both are given authority to act for 3.5 years (42 months/time, time, half a time)

revelation 13:5-7 The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months. And the beast opened its mouth to speak blasphemies against God and to slander His name and His tabernacle—those who dwell in heaven. Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.

Daniel 7:25 He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the appointed times and laws; and the saints will be given into his hand until a time, and times, and half a time.

According to the angel, there would be four earthly/gentile kingdoms (lion:Babylon, bear: Persia, leopard:Greece, beast:Rome) but the saints would posses the kingdom of God forever.

Daniel 7:17-18 These four great beasts are four kings who will arise from the earth. But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever—yes, forever and ever.’

This is further confirmed, by the saints being given the kingdom after the destruction of the horn, which rose during the 10 kings of the 4th kingdom.

Daniel 7:26-27 But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away,
to be consumed and destroyed to the end. And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

The 4th kingdom being Rome is confirmed by the saints receiving the kingdom of God in the 1st century, during the time of the Roman Empire:

Mark 1:14-15 Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand repent and believe in the gospel.”

Colossians 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Hebrews 12:28-29 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, for our God is a consuming fire.

Romans 14:17 or the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Luke 21:31-32 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that the kingdom of God is near. Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all has taken place

Mark 9:1 And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.”

Further confirmation of the beast's destruction during the 4th kingdom (rome), is found in the words of John's revelation which states the things of the apocalypse "must soon take place" and the "time is near". Revelation was written during the time of the 4th kingdom: Rome.

Revelation 1:1-3 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

Revelation 22:10 and he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

So it seems to me, that the horn of Daniel ch 7/Beast of revelation would have been destroyed during the 4th kingdom (rome).

 

[DavidPT]

ISTM, that the beast of revelation is related to the horn of Daniel chapter 7, as both blaspheme God, both persecute the saints, and both are given authority to act for 3.5 years (42 months/time, time, half a time)

revelation 13:5-7 The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months. And the beast opened its mouth to speak blasphemies against God and to slander His name and His tabernacle—those who dwell in heaven. Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.

Daniel 7:25 He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the appointed times and laws; and the saints will be given into his hand until a time, and times, and half a time.

According to the angel, there would be four earthly/gentile kingdoms (lion:Babylon, bear: Persia, leopard:Greece, beast:Rome) but the saints would posses the kingdom of God forever.

Daniel 7:17-18 These four great beasts are four kings who will arise from the earth. But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever—yes, forever and ever.’

This is further confirmed, by the saints being given the kingdom after the destruction of the horn, which rose during the 10 kings of the 4th kingdom.

Daniel 7:26-27 But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away,
to be consumed and destroyed to the end. And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

The 4th kingdom being Rome is confirmed by the saints receiving the kingdom of God in the 1st century, during the time of the Roman Empire:

Mark 1:14-15 Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand repent and believe in the gospel.”

Colossians 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Hebrews 12:28-29 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, for our God is a consuming fire.

Romans 14:17 or the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Luke 21:31-32 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that the kingdom of God is near. Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all has taken place

Mark 9:1 And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.”

Further confirmation of the beast's destruction during the 4th kingdom (rome), is found in the words of John's revelation which states the things of the apocalypse "must soon take place" and the "time is near". Revelation was written during the time of the 4th kingdom: Rome.

Revelation 1:1-3 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

Revelation 22:10 and he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

So it seems to me, that the horn of Daniel ch 7/Beast of revelation would have been destroyed during the 4th kingdom (rome).

How does it seem reasonable that events pertaining to being cast into the lake of fire have already been fulfilled in the past?

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

This is the same LOF we see satan and others getting cast into in Revelation 20:10-15. I know of no one, who is not a full Preterist, that would claim Revelation 20:10-15 has already been fulfilled 2000 years ago. I don't know of anyone, who is not a full Preterist, that would claim that 20:10-15 can even be fulfilled unless Christ has bodily returned first. Why is it then, that some of you are claiming, via your interpretations, that some, in this case meaning the beast and false prophet, have already been cast into the LOF 2000 years ago, and not only that, it never even involved the bodily return of Christ?

 

[DavidPT]

The celebration will not last 3 days. In fact the reason they leave the bodies alone would be the vials of God's wrath poured out.

My point had nothing to do with how long they might be leaving the bodies alone. My point has to do with the fact that no one in their right mind would be calling for a reason to celebrate about anything if the last 7 vials of wrath are already in progress at the time.

Let's look at something here.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

A) First there is this---For when they shall say, Peace and safety

B) Then there is this---then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

During which time does verse 10 appear to fit during? A) or B)?

During which time do the last 7 vials of wrath appear to fit during? A) or B)?

It seems to me that the 6 trumpet judgments are happening during the time of the 2WS when they are prophesying, the fact verse 10 indicates that these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. Why not via these trumpet judgments being one way they tormented them? After all, it does say the following about what the 2Ws were doing during their testimonies.

Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Look what verse 6 says---and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. Do not the trumpet judgments bring about plagues? Do not the trumpet judgments bring about the waters being turned into blood?

Revelation 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;


What we have to keep in mind, once the 2Ws are killed off, this tormenting of them that are dwelling on the earth seemingly stops, thus a call for celebration, thus a time of peace and safety. But, according to 1 Thessalonians 5:3 this time of peace and safety seems to be short lived, the fact we are then told--then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

As to the vials of wrath, here is what it states about the first vial.

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

To place this parallel with that of the first trumpet then means that before the first trumpet has even sounded, the beast has to have already ascended out of the pit, and a 2nd one out of the earth, and be in full operation in order to have a noisome and grievous sore fall upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image. This can't be meaning when the beast 'was', nor when it 'is not', but must be meaning once it has ascended out of the pit.

 

[DavidPT]

So when Revelation 14:8 says “Babylon is fallen, is fallen” and Revelation 18:2 says “Babylon is fallen, is fallen”; we should interpret this as two events separated by 42 months?

I may just have to go back to the old drawing board on this one and start over, meaning I need to do some more rethinking on some of these things.