When is lying not sinful?

Jason0047 said:

But Romans 2:14 says the Gentiles do by nature the things contained in the law.
If you turn on the news today: They will frown down upon things like murder, theft, child abuse, rape, etc.

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I know....also men are growing out their hair! So shameful.

1 Corinthians 11:14
Doesn't nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him...

Apex said:

I am not a fan of creating categories for these laws, but I would say the incest laws were more civil than moral.

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I understand, but truth should not be our enemy.
Certain truths within these laws do exist whether we recognize them or not.

You said:

I view them as laws regarding sexual property rights culturally needed in a patriarchal and agrarian society where God enacted a program of inheritance.

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That is not the case. It was considered ... wickedness.

"Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near kinswomen: it is wickedness" (Leviticus 18:17).

For you can actually defile yourself with these things.

"Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:" (Leviticus 18:20).

In fact, I believe certain (next of kin laws and not all of them) like sleeping with one's mother was always forbidden. How so?

For one, our nature built within us tell us this is wrong. Two, we see that this is what wrongfully happened between Noah's wife and his son, Ham. For it is why Noah cursed the offspring of Ham (i.e. his son, Canaan). For the words "uncover the nakedness of a particular person" was in reference to their spouse.

Leviticus 18:7 says,
"The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness."

So we have:

Thy father's wife = thy father's nakedness.

So when Genesis 9:22 says,
"And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, "

The nakedness of his father (Noah) was Noah's wife.
It is talking about Noah's wife.
This is done for the obvious reason so as not to humilate her within the Scriptures.

Anyways, in light of this, I now need to say that some of God's laws on "not sleeping with kin" are "Eternal Moral Laws." while others were temporal (and came about during the time of Moses).

You said:

As for being fruitful and multiplying
I view this as a blessing rather than as a command. You can see how I understand procreation here: Is Procreation the Purpose of Marriage?

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I see it as a means of God desiring to fill the Earth.

"Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth." (Genesis 9:1).

In fact, when they didn't do that, and they just stayed in one place, God confounded their language and scattered them abroad.

"....the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.." (Genesis 11:9).

God wanted to populate the planet Earth with man and for him to have dominion over it.

For it was a command given to Adam and Eve.

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." (Genesis 1:28).

In other words, God naturally rules;
And man was created in God's image.
So it has to do with God wanting man to have rule over the Earth.

You said:

I see that God instituted a program of inheritance and then set family parameters to ensure the success of that program. Great timing....wouldn't you say?

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Yet, families existed since after Adam, though.
And geneologies were kept even back then.
Abraham before the Law was promised the inheritance of the Promised Land;
Abraham was also promised that his descendants would be as the stars of the sky.


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Apex said:

I know....also men are growing out their hair! So shameful.

1 Corinthians 11:14
Doesn't nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him...

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I used to have a mullet (that actually looked good) in my early years as a teen. But it was not feminine or anything. Just shoulder length with it being cut shorter on the sides and the top.

Today, I keep my hair short on my head and have the spikey look (most days).


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Jason0047 said:

Evil is still evil regardless of whether or not your ultimate goal is righteous.
Many of the best villians of a story that you see in movies today are those villians who do evil things for a righteous cause or purpose. They think the ends justifies the means.

For example: The villian Magneto in the X-men films does certain evils for the greater good of his people (i.e. mutants as a whole). But he is still a villian and he is doing evil things. He is a bad guy. God does not want us to be like a Magneto or something.

For example: Instead of inserting the word "lying" into the blank line below. Put in other evils such as child abuse, rape, murder, drunkenness, hating of one's brother, etc.

So in order for me to protect my family, I will engage in __________ so as that no harm may come to them.

In other words, the ends does not justify the means.


Side Note:

Please take note that I am not endorsing you to watch secular movies or the X-men films. As a Christian, I have stopped watching these films. I am merely using these things as an example for you to understand. May God bless you; And please be well in the Lord.


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Maybe His words will help?
“Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?”

In Christ
Daniel

Dan61861 said:

Maybe His words will help?
“Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?”

In Christ
Daniel

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Again, you don't have to lie to save life (if you are clever enough in knowing what to say).


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Simply put, lying is a sin. The specific examples you asked about though...it's tough. I mean, how could you not lie when asked if you know where someone is if telling would cost them their life? I suppose that's where grace comes in, and if we sin, we ask forgiveness, and we are forgiven. When it gets right down to it, when God looks at us, He doesn't see us in our sin (that we told a lie to keep from hurting someone), He sees us through the blood of Christ.

We are not expected to be perfect...and I am really, really happy about that!

The Biblical references you asked about, though, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Easu and Joseph...didn't those instances happen before Moses came down off the mount with the 10 Commandments, one of which was "Thou shalt not lie."

Some Biblical references:
Leviticus 19:11 – Do not steal. Do not lie. Do not deceive one another.
Proverbs 12:22 – The LORD detests lying lips, but he delights in people who are trustworthy.
Proverbs 13:5 – The righteous hate what is false…
Colossians 3:9 – Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices
Revelation 21:8 – … all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

AmusingMargaret said:

Simply put, lying is a sin. The specific examples you asked about though...it's tough. I mean, how could you not lie when asked if you know where someone is if telling would cost them their life? I suppose that's where grace comes in, and if we sin, we ask forgiveness, and we are forgiven. When it gets right down to it, when God looks at us, He doesn't see us in our sin (that we told a lie to keep from hurting someone), He sees us through the blood of Christ.

We are not expected to be perfect...and I am really, really happy about that!

The Biblical references you asked about, though, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Easu and Joseph...didn't those instances happen before Moses came down off the mount with the 10 Commandments, one of which was "Thou shalt not lie."

Some Biblical references:
Leviticus 19:11 – Do not steal. Do not lie. Do not deceive one another.
Proverbs 12:22 – The LORD detests lying lips, but he delights in people who are trustworthy.
Proverbs 13:5 – The righteous hate what is false…
Colossians 3:9 – Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices
Revelation 21:8 – … all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

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So as not to lie in this situation: We can say things like, "Do you see anyone else in this house?" "Please feel free to look around."

If you hid them well, then they are not going to find them or they are going to assume there is nobody is home.

So nobody is ever really forced to lie.
One has to simply be prepared.


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Dan61861 said:

Maybe His words will help?
“Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?”

In Christ
Daniel

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Do you think Jesus would outright lie to save life?
I do not think He would do that.
He might use misdirection with His words; But his words would still be true in what He was saying.

In fact, Jesus used misdirection with His words when He told the Pharisees that "Ye are gods." as a means of deflection of His claims to deity. Jesus did this so as to protect His mission.


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Jason0047 said:

So as not to lie in this situation: We can say things like, "Do you see anyone else in this house?" "Please feel free to look around."

If you hid them well, then they are not going to find them or they are going to assume there is nobody is home.

So nobody is ever really forced to lie.
One has to simply be prepared.


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You would get them killed.

Dan61861 said:

You would get them killed.

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I took acting class for a long time. So most often, I am pretty good.
On top of that, I wouldn't hide them in some closet but in some hidden compartment or place in the house that they would not so easily find.

I like to think... outside the box.


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Jason0047 said:

Do you think Jesus would outright lie to save life?
I do think He would do that.
He might use misdirection with His words; But his words would still be true in what He was saying.

In fact, Jesus used misdirection with His words when He told the Pharisees that "Ye are gods." as a means of deflection of His claims to deity. Jesus did this so as to protect His mission.


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Jesus broke the Sabbath, but did not sin. He did it out of Love, compassion and mercy. This is what Christ is teaching us.

John 5:10

“The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.”

In Christ
Daniel

Dan61861 said:

Jesus broke the Sabbath, but did not sin. He did it out of Love, compassion and mercy. This is what Christ is teaching us.

John 5:10

“The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.”

In Christ
Daniel

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Uh, no.
You cannot break God's laws without sinning.

1 John 3:4 says,
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

Jesus, in commenting upon the disciples’ conduct, plainly said they were “guiltless” (Matthew 12:7).



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Christ demonstrated that not all labor on the sabbath was condemned. The priests served (worked) on that holy day without any guilt whatever (Matthew 12:5; cf. Numbers 28:10). The priestly “profaning” of that day was merely one of perception, not reality.

The Lord cited the case where David unlawfully ate of the tabernacle showbread (Matthew 12:4; cf. 1 Samuel 21:6). Since the Pharisees did not condemn David, who actually did what was “not lawful,” they were hopelessly illogical in censuring the Master’s men, who had breached no more than Pharisaic, uninspired traditions.


Source:
Did Jesus Violate the Sabbath?

Jason0047 said:

Uh, no.
You cannot break God's laws without sinning.

1 John 3:4 says,
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

Jesus, in commenting upon the disciples’ conduct, plainly said they were “guiltless” (Matthew 12:7).



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John 5:18 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Yet He Sinned Not

Dan61861 said:

John 5:18 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

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Read the context, pally.
It says, the JEWS sought the more to kill him because he not only had broken the sabbath.
Is John saying he sought to kill Jesus because he broke the Sabbath?
No. So it is not the narrators thoughts here, but the JEWS thoughts or reasons.
It is what the JEWS believed falsey!
The JEWS also sought to kill Jesus because Jesus was claiming to make Himself equal with GOD, too.
These are the reasons the Jews wanted to kill him!
They thought Jesus was just a man.
They had traditions about the Sabbath that were not based on God's Word.


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Jesus said,
"Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye." (Mark 7:13).


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The Jews had false beliefs or man made traditions about the Sabbath.
But Jesus set them straight. He said even David at the showbread and was not condemned.


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Neither carry forth a burden out of your houses on the sabbath day, neither do ye any work, but hallow ye the sabbath day, as I commanded your fathers.

Jesus told him to take up his bed on the Sabbath. The Sabbath was broken, Yet Christ did not sin. This was all done out of Love, compassion and mercy.

This is the letter of the Law, Jason.