When is it time to abandon a sinking ship? (YEC?)

[Jase]

I read it somewhere.

Hmm, I imagine you read it the same place that says the Earth has four corners and sits on pillars.

Then what happened to the Water Canopy?

There was no water canopy. That's an absurd attempt by creationists to try to make sense of a story never intended to be literal. A water canopy would not work.

What happened to the race of humans that cohabited with the angels?

You tell me.

Explain Jude 6.

Care to quote it?

What specific judgement ended the dispensation of Consciousness?

Huh?

Where did the Ice Age come from?

Which one? There have been many. In fact, we're in an Ice Age as we speak.

Why did the dinosaurs eventually die out?

An asteroid hit the Yucatan peninsula 65 million years, throwing trillions of tons of dust in the air, blocking out the sun for years, leading to the death of a large portion of plant and animal life.

Who are Shem, Ham, and Japheth; and what's a 'Semite'?

You tell me.

A non-literal Ark doesn't jive with the Bible --- at all.

A literal Ark just doesn't jive with the millions upon millions of pieces of physical evidence left on God's grand creation.

Believe me --- the Ark was real.

Believe me. There was no global flood. See, I can make random claims with no evidence to back them up too!

 

[Jase]

Ya think maybe Someone cleaned it up for safety and sanitary reasons?

Nope, because that would be deceptive and against the Bible.

 

[Parmenio]

You really can't use this argument for three reasons:
1. There are Cristian colleges and seminaries that advocate evolution (hard to believe but true).
2. Creationism is not damaging to faith. Actually it takes faith to believe it.
3. The world calls Christians silly for believing in God and a risen Lord. Faith is sillyness in the worlds eyes, therefore, calling creationists silly only afiirms the Creationists clam to faith. Walk by faith, not by sight!

1. How does this is any way affect my assertion? I was asking if he was going to the Christian college because if it was something such as Liberty University, then evolution might be taught as a prevailing theory but creationism would be held as the gold standard. I am quite aware that many Christian Universities such as Baylor teach evolution. Going to a fundamentalist Christian university would make it far more likely that the creationist view would be maintained post graduation.

2. Creationism is, often, in the long run damaging to faith. It does take faith to believe it, but when it occurs to someone to actually look honestly at the evidence that God has provided through the world, that faith is shattered. If that faith, which it so often is, is tied to their faith in the veracity of the Bible, it can be a catalyst towards them becoming a militant atheist.

3. This, again, is silly. I am a Christian, and this same argument is used by different denominations of Christianity against each other so often that it's laughable. Anytime someone criticizes any of your beliefs you are simply able to revert back to the default "We're Godly and you're a heathen". It's intellectually dishonest. Whenever I hear this line or the "they will want their ears tickled with things that they want to hear" I always think of the Westboro Baptist Church people. They hide behind an impenetrable shield of fallacy and doctrinal distortion. Your deflection is no different.

 

[pastorkevin73]

Hi, Pastor Kevin! ---

Hi AV1611VET!

 

[Jase]

What it comes down to is do you believe God and what He says in His Word orare you going to believe man?

False dichotomy. Man wrote the Bible, man translated the Bible, man came up with the erroneous YEC interpretation. You are just as much following man as you claim we are.

 

[Jase]

No, I haven't. Please enlighten me.

+

Since I don't have all day, I'll just link you a brief explanation of the problems with the Global flood story:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

 

[AV1611VET]

Hmm, I imagine you read it the same place that says the Earth has four corners and sits on pillars.


There was no water canopy. That's an absurd attempt by creationists to try to make sense of a story never intended to be literal. A water canopy would not work.

You tell me.

Care to quote it?

Huh?
Which one? There have been many. In fact, we're in an Ice Age as we speak.

An asteroid hit the Yucatan peninsula 65 million years, throwing trillions of tons of dust in the air, blocking out the sun for years, leading to the death of a large portion of plant and animal life.

You tell me.

A literal Ark just doesn't jive with the millions upon millions of pieces of physical evidence left on God's grand creation.


Believe me. There was no global flood. See, I can make random claims with no evidence to back them up too!

Okay, Jase --- no problem --- I know a brush-off when I see one.

 

[Jase]

You really can't use this argument for three reasons:
1. There are Cristian colleges and seminaries that advocate evolution (hard to believe but true).

Not really hard to believe since the majority of the 2+ billion Christians on Earth accept evolutionary theory.

2. Creationism is not damaging to faith. Actually it takes faith to believe it.

Actually it is. Many a people have fallen away from the faith due to the absurdity of creationism. Most of us don't want to sacrifice our brains in order to be faithful.

3. The world calls Christians silly for believing in God and a risen Lord. Faith is sillyness in the worlds eyes, therefore, calling creationists silly only afiirms the Creationists clam to faith. Walk by faith, not by sight!

Read St. Augustine. For non-believers who know about science, to hear creationists speaking about such ridiculous notions as a global flood and 6,000 year old Earth makes non-believers unwilling to want to hear about anything that matters like the Gospel (my paraphrase).

 

[plainswolf]

Since I don't have all day, I'll just link you a brief explanation of the problems with the Global flood story:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

Thanks for the link!



+

 

[AV1611VET]

Nope, because that would be deceptive and against the Bible.

How is it "deceptive" when He put it in writing and gave us the Great Commission to spread it around?

And please tell me --- who is being deceived? You?

I sure wasn't when I first read the story.

Like I've said before, there have been great Creationist of the past who were scientists, and it didn't deceive them.

What's YOUR problem?

 

[Jadis40]

2. Creationism is, often, in the long run damaging to faith. It does take faith to believe it, but when it occurs to someone to actually look honestly at the evidence that God has provided through the world, that faith is shattered. If that faith, which it so often is, is tied to their faith in the veracity of the Bible, it can be a catalyst towards them becoming a militant atheist.

This point reminds me of the story of Glenn Morton, who used to believe in YEC, but through his career, found more and more evidence that disproved that particular interpretation of the Bible and the geologic record:

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/gstory.htm

 

[Jase]

How is it "deceptive" when He put it in writing and gave us the Great Commission to spread it around?

And please tell me --- who is being deceived? You?

I sure wasn't when I first read the story.

Like I've said before, there have been great Creationist of the past who were scientists, and it didn't deceive them.

What's YOUR problem?

Something from Romans about the things of God being clearly seen in creation. Remember that? It's deceptive for God's entire creation to not be as it seems. The Bible does not support the current view of creation, therefore it's deception. It's no different then Adam having a belly button despite not being born - it's called false history.

 

[hithesh]

What it comes down to is do you believe God and what He says in His Word orare you going to believe man?

Well, I definitely do not believe the "word" of man.

When I was much younger, before I even had a basic understanding of science,
I read the Genesis account as allegory, because of the beauty of the symbolism,
whether we are referring to a "tree of knowledge", or the shame of one's nakedness, and vulnerability.

I felt no sense of "literalism" when I read the account.
And it has only been man who has told me to take the account as literal.

When I see the ministers of YEC, on TV, at sunday services, I hear of them speak to me of a God,
that's only a spec, but I believe in a much greater God than that. My Lord does not hide under a rock.

If the Lord willed for us to see "science" in the bible, he would not do so by a thread.
The bible would speak of the inner workings of the cell, if this is what my Lord willed for us to believe on.

I can understand why a marvelous father, would leave these things absent from the bible, because if he provided such,
we would be focusing on the material composition of a wooden cross on Sundays, rather than the command to carry it.

 

[Parmenio]

Thank you for that story.... I think I'll try and find the book. It might help a few of my friends.

 

[AV1611VET]

Something from Romans about the things of God being clearly seen in creation. Remember that?

So they clearly saw that the Flood was local? Or didn't happen? Is that what you're saying? Just by looking at Mother Nature?

It's deceptive for God's entire creation to not be as it seems.

Au contraire ---

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Is this verse not talking about atoms?

The Bible does not support the current view of creation, therefore it's deception.

And what is the "current view of creation"? Big Bang? Solid State? Multiverse? (I'm asking about this year's current view, by the way.)

It's no different then Adam having a belly button despite not being born - it's called false history.

FWIW, I don't believe Adam had a belly button.

 

[pastorkevin73]

1. How does this is any way affect my assertion? I was asking if he was going to the Christian college because if it was something such as Liberty University, then evolution might be taught as a prevailing theory but creationism would be held as the gold standard. I am quite aware that many Christian Universities such as Baylor teach evolution. Going to a fundamentalist Christian university would make it far more likely that the creationist view would be maintained post graduation.

2. Creationism is, often, in the long run damaging to faith. It does take faith to believe it, but when it occurs to someone to actually look honestly at the evidence that God has provided through the world, that faith is shattered. If that faith, which it so often is, is tied to their faith in the veracity of the Bible, it can be a catalyst towards them becoming a militant atheist.

3. This, again, is silly. I am a Christian, and this same argument is used by different denominations of Christianity against each other so often that it's laughable. Anytime someone criticizes any of your beliefs you are simply able to revert back to the default "We're Godly and you're a heathen". It's intellectually dishonest. Whenever I hear this line or the "they will want their ears tickled with things that they want to hear" I always think of the Westboro Baptist Church people. They hide behind an impenetrable shield of fallacy and doctrinal distortion. Your deflection is no different.

I gladly accept being called silly when I believe and follow God. Again, the wold acuses Christians all the time. You have just allied yourself with the world!

 

[pastorkevin73]

Well, I definitely do not believe the "word" of man.

When I was much younger, before I even had a basic understanding of science,
I read the Genesis account as allegory, because of the beauty of the symbolism,
whether we are referring to a "tree of knowledge", or the shame of one's nakedness, and vulnerability.

I felt no sense of "literalism" when I read the account.
And it has only been man who has told me to take the account as literal.

When I see the ministers of YEC, on TV, at sunday services, I hear of them speak to me of a God,
that's only a spec, but I believe in a much greater God than that. My Lord does not hide under a rock.

If the Lord willed for us to see "science" in the bible, he would not do so by a thread.
The bible would speak of the inner workings of the cell, if this is what my Lord willed for us to believe on.

I can understand why a marvelous father, would leave these things absent from the bible, because if he provided such,
we would be focusing on the material composition of a wooden cross on Sundays, rather than the command to carry it.

What process of interpreting the Bible do you use. Please specifically discribe the process.

 

[Parmenio]

I gladly accept being called silly when I believe and follow God. Again, the wold acuses Christians all the time. You have just allied yourself with the world!

This is what I mean when I speak of insanity. Regardless as to what ANYONE might say to you, you are right. God has spoken to you, and there is no possible way you could be wrong. So many have gone down that path and found the fruits thereof. It makes me weep to know that yet another generation is to be indoctrinated with the thought that if you disagree with someone, they are allying themselves with satan, and you are allying yourself with God. Do you see how insane that is?

I'm not the world accusing you of being silly. I'm a fellow Christian saying that for you to actually believe what you believe now requires you to think so highly of yourself and your interpretation of the Bible that you would disregard His creation and simply, blindly, assert your infallibility.

 

[hithesh]

What process of interpreting the Bible do you use. Please specifically discribe the process.

"You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.

You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

and everything else revolves around this.

 

[pastorkevin73]

This is what I mean when I speak of insanity. Regardless as to what ANYONE might say to you, you are right. God has spoken to you, and there is no possible way you could be wrong. So many have gone down that path and found the fruits thereof. It makes me weep to know that yet another generation is to be indoctrinated with the thought that if you disagree with someone, they are allying themselves with satan, and you are allying yourself with God. Do you see how insane that is?

I'm not the world accusing you of being silly. I'm a fellow Christian saying that for you to actually believe what you believe now requires you to think so highly of yourself and your interpretation of the Bible that you would disregard His creation and simply, blindly, assert your infallibility.

To the world it seems insane. To the world God doesn't make sense.

To the contrary, I do not think highly of myself. It's to bad that you see confidence in God and His Word as personal arrogance. I do not disregard His creation; I look at it and stand in awe of the wonder He has created.

I'll ask you the same question I asked another poster: What process do you go through to interprete God's Word? Please discribe the process.