When is it ok to kill?

This verse may help,

Rom 13:4 For he is God's servant to do your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

If you replace sword with gun or any other weapon used in defense or to gain peace by an authority, this verse applies.

Every law enforcement officer and military personel do not ask for the priviledge to kill someone, they are people that were called to the defense of our society and may be forced to take someones life to keep us safe.

If we look to the old testament God describes how if someone kills another person by accident, God will let them run and hid in a place of refuge. However if someone kills intentionally, there will be no refuge granted for them.

Whitestone

Whitestone said:

This verse may help,

Rom 13:4 For he is God's servant to do your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

If you replace sword with gun or any other weapon used in defense or to gain peace by an authority, this verse applies.

Every law enforcement officer and military personel do not ask for the priviledge to kill someone, they are people that were called to the defense of our society and may be forced to take someones life to keep us safe.

If we look to the old testament God describes how if someone kills another person by accident, God will let them run and hid in a place of refuge. However if someone kills intentionally, there will be no refuge granted for them.

Whitestone

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so accident is the only exception. ? clarify, please

What about maiming? Other than just blowing away the offender, why not just snap his arms and shatter his knee caps? That still equal to slaughtering the malevolent being or not?

Would you like for someone to KILL YOU?!

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Absolutely, if in my current state of mind for whatever reason I was about to slaughter innocent people, I would want and expect people to do whatever necisary to stop me, up to and including killing me. See the police officer example.

When Jesus taught his disciples to turn the other cheek he was teaching a powerful form of passive restistance. To turn the other cheek would mean the assailant would need to strike you with the flat of the hand, like an equal, after striking you with the back of his hand as if you were his inferior, so it forced your assailant to give you dignity.

To walk another mile with a Roman soldier who had legally pressed you into carrying his pack for one mile would mean the soldier was breaking army rules and would be liable to millitary discipline, which was pretty severe.

If someone demanded your cloak, the garment that kept you warm, and so basically healthy and alive, in a court of law for whatever reason, but presumably an unjust one, by giving them your tunic also you would stand there naked, which to the Jewish mind shamed the person who had demanded your clothes more than you.

Jesus never condoned violence or the taking of life.

I can see no argument for Jesus' disciples today to take a life, although if we do so in self-defence or in a moment of anger and truly repent, I'm sure God will be merciful too us, but there may still be serious consequences for us.

Karin

Whitestone said:

This verse may help,

Rom 13:4 For he is God's servant to do your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

If you replace sword with gun or any other weapon used in defense or to gain peace by an authority, this verse applies.

Every law enforcement officer and military personel do not ask for the priviledge to kill someone, they are people that were called to the defense of our society and may be forced to take someones life to keep us safe.

If we look to the old testament God describes how if someone kills another person by accident, God will let them run and hid in a place of refuge. However if someone kills intentionally, there will be no refuge granted for them.

Whitestone

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This verse hits the nail on the head, but goes even better with the context. Without the civil authorities, chaos and anarchy would reign. There would be no justice or protection for the helpless and needy from the wicked ravening wolves of this world. Would it be right to see a child being molested or another person being killed and then not stop them if stopping them envolved their forfeiting life - should the wicked prevail over the innocent? To not act would be unjust, and if that means blood shed to preserve order and justice, it is santified by God, just as the verses in Romans explains and is repeated throughout scripture. God has given them authority. Now if this authority is misused, then what God has built, He also brings down, and He will punish those that abuse authority. Those in authority are to be honored as put their by God.

Romans 13:1 Obey the government, for God is the one who put it there. All governments have been placed in power by God.
2 So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow.
3 For the authorities do not frighten people who are doing right, but they frighten those who do wrong. So do what they say, and you will get along well.
4 The authorities are sent by God to help you. But if you are doing something wrong, of course you should be afraid, for you will be punished. The authorities are established by God for that very purpose, to punish those who do wrong.
5 So you must obey the government for two reasons: to keep from being punished and to keep a clear conscience.
6 Pay your taxes, too, for these same reasons. For government workers need to be paid so they can keep on doing the work God intended them to do.
7 Give to everyone what you owe them: Pay your taxes and import duties, and give respect and honor to all to whom it is due.
8 Pay all your debts, except the debt of love for others. You can never finish paying that! If you love your neighbor, you will fulfill all the requirements of God’s law.

Ps 75:7 It is God alone who judges; he decides who will rise and who will fall.

Da 2:21 He determines the course of world events; he removes kings and sets others on the throne. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the scholars.

Ec 10:20 Do not curse the king, even in your thought; Do not curse the rich, even in your bedroom; For a bird of the air may carry your voice, And a bird in flight may tell the matter.

If Christians don't believe it is right to kill I don't think they should rely on others to do it for them. Rather they must be prepared to submit to death as Jesus did.

Karin

butxifxnot said:

so accident is the only exception. ? clarify, please

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Deut 19:4 This is the rule concerning the man who kills another and flees there rot save his life-one who kills his neighbor unintentionally, without malice aforethought. 5 For instance, a man may go into the forest with his neighbor to cut wood, and as he swings his ax to fell a tree, the head may fly off and hit his neighbor and kill him. That man may flee to one of the these cities and save his life.

Most of the chapter is about cities of refuge but this seems pertinent to the excuseable forms of homicide.

Please also take note of the term malice aforethought, which is one of the primary requirements for a homicide to be considered a murder in the US.

Whitestone

DrPepper said:

Many people serving in the armed forces are christians, many of them will have killed, is it ok for them to kill? Is it ok to kill under any circumstances?

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The Old Testement talks about killing in times of war. Basically, as long as the war is a just war, killing the enemy is okay. There is many instances of killing that took place in the Bible that was justified. David slaying Goliath as a good example.

Another good example is Exodus 22:2 "If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him."

If you kill a thief who has broken into your house, it is justified by God and no foul act has been commited bu the killer. I think this pretty clearly supports the concept that Christians have the right the defend themselves.

prestonw said:

The Old Testement talks about killing in times of war. Basically, as long as the war is a just war, killing the enemy is okay. There is many instances of killing that took place in the Bible that was justified. David slaying Goliath as a good example.

Another good example is Exodus 22:2 "If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him."

If you kill a thief who has broken into your house, it is justified by God and no foul act has been commited bu the killer. I think this pretty clearly supports the concept that Christians have the right the defend themselves.

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Hasn't Jesus' teaching superceded these things?

The Old Testament said you could claim and eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. This law limited the amount of revenge people should take. Jesus told his followers that they should not take any kind of revenge, but forgive.

So should Christians not be guided by by Jesus rather than the Old Testament?

Karin

Treasure the Questions said:

Hasn't Jesus' teaching superceded these things?

The Old Testament said you could claim and eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. This law limited the amount of revenge people should take. Jesus told his followers that they should not take any kind of revenge, but forgive.

So should Christians not be guided by by Jesus rather than the Old Testament?

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There is a difference between taking revenge against someone and protecting your own or someone elses life and property. Forgive someone for the wrongs they have done, but I wouldn't just stand there while someone killed my family, would you?

DrPepper said:

Do you think christians should join the armed forces/police considering they may have to kill people?
The soldiers arn't always killing in self-defence, they have a if in doubt kill policy, in the Fullujah seige they even bombed the city KNOWING they would kill many civillians for each millitant, they plane pilot dropping the bombs would KNOW it.

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I'm a Christian guy and right now I'm looking at joining the Air Force or the ARMY. I know that I may have to kill but I'm willing to do it for my country.

God is the perfect judge of the hearts of men. Those in authority wield the sword with His authority - just as the scriptures say. God will protect, and has protected His people according to His will. Without the Holy Spirit and God's work on the earth, utter chaos would rule. He has preserved His remnants from both houses of Israel and is patient and longsuffering, waiting to see the Sons of God revealed and all come to repentance. Even the Centurion of scripture showed great faith in Jesus and was commended for having practical faith, understanding what authority is. The enemies of God, evil, will be vanquished someday for good. In the meantime, He still ministers His will through the powers and authorities on earth enough to preserve what He would keep.

Mt. 8:8 Then the officer said, "Lord, I am not worthy to have you come into my home. Just say the word from where you are, and my servant will be healed!
9 I know, because I am under the authority of my superior officers and I have authority over my soldiers. I only need to say, ‘Go,’ and they go, or ‘Come,’ and they come. And if I say to my slaves, ‘Do this or that,’ they do it."
10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed. Turning to the crowd, he said, "I tell you the truth, I haven’t seen faith like this in all the land of Israel!

Romans 13:1 Obey the government, for God is the one who put it there. All governments have been placed in power by God.
2 So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow.

prestonw said:

There is a difference between taking revenge against someone and protecting your own or someone elses life and property. Forgive someone for the wrongs they have done, but I wouldn't just stand there while someone killed my family, would you?

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well, which is better. to have your family die, or for you to kill that man instead. evil happens no matter what, and you sure wouldn't have 'turned the other cheek.'

butxifxnot said:

Yes, but where is the line? Without direct commune with God, how can you know when to come close to sin? ie the Israelites killed in war, but God was their ruler. Our nation (US) is most definately NOT a nation 'under God' as it tries to acclaim.

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Well to kill would mean if someone was trying to harm or take your life it would be ok to defend yourself and if they die because of that i dont think you would get in trouble.Murder would be you taking someones life for no good reason.But i wouldnt want to have to kill anyone if i didnt have to,but no one is going to sit around and let someone hurt or kill a family member or someone close without doing anything,i would hope not anyway.
I totaly agree with the last part of your post when you said our nation is definatley not a nation under god,at least not anymore.
And if it was wrong all the way around then was david wrong to kill goliath?
Anyway i just hope im never in a position that i have to make that kind of choice.

DrPepper said:

When is it ok to kill?
Many people serving in the armed forces are christians, many of them will have killed, is it ok for them to kill?
Is it ok to kill under any circumstances?

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When you get a new katana.
Hey, you have to try it out, don't you?

butxifxnot said:

well, which is better. to have your family die, or for you to kill that man instead. evil happens no matter what, and you sure wouldn't have 'turned the other cheek.'

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Wow. I think me killing a man to protect the life of my family is justified under God's eyes. I'm sure I would have to answer for it, but I believe I could. God is pretty smart and I don't think he would hold me accountable for protecting lifes.

Are we not allowed to call the police after getting robbed and just "turn the other cheek?" We are not meant to be left defenseless. Turn the other cheek on someones debt or if they stole your cookie, but if someone is going to kill you or a loved one, you can't turn your cheek on that.