"When I kill one I create three"

[southernmissfan]

These countries are not good examples. I am talking about countries that are killing their own people and so on.

I'm guessing you're apart of the "America does no wrong" crowd, huh? Well, Uzbekistan was recently in the news, so we'll go with them for now.

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/003200505161758.htm

Sporadic shooting continued today in an eastern Uzbek city where an uprising sparked a crackdown by security forces that left up to 500 people dead, and a human rights group reported that clashes in another town killed an additional 200.

What makes this story all the more ironical? Guess who was apart of the "coalition of the willing"? I'll give you a hint: It starts with 'U', ends with 'stan', and is controlled by a dictator. That's right, Uzbekistan.

http://www.thememoryhole.org/pol/us-and-uz.htm

Independent human rights groups estimate that there are more than 600 politically motivated arrests a year in Uzbekistan, and 6,500 political prisoners, some tortured to death. According to a forensic report commissioned by the British embassy, in August two prisoners were even boiled to death.

The US condemned this repression for many years. But since September 11 rewrote America's strategic interests in central Asia, the government of President Islam Karimov has become Washington's new best friend in the region.

http://www.gnn.tv/articles/1435/Under_the_Radar

For further reading, I suggest you look up these events:

Indian Removal Act/Trail of Tears
Mexican-American War
Sand Creek Massacre
Marias Massacre
Shinmiyangyo
Wounded Knee Massacre
Spanish-American War
Philippine-American War
American involvement in the Boxer Rebellion
Ludlow Massacre
Japanese-American Internment
Firebombing of Tokyo and Dresden
Dachau Massacre
Operation Ajax
Operation PBSUCCESS
Kent State Massacre
US Involvement in the Iran-Iraq war
Iran-Contra Affair
Al-Shifa pharmaceutical factory

Now obviously I could go on and on, but this should be an adequate dose for now.

I also suggest you look further into Saudi Arabia. Here's Amnesty International's (though I'm sure you won't look at it, since Amnesty is now considered e-vil by the right) Saudi Arabia site:

http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/saudi/

I can also direct you to another thread in which I talked about American foreign policy quite a bit:

http://www.christianforums.com/t1703152-us-foreign-aid-greatly-exaggerated-says-new-study.html

 

[armyman_83]

How often have I heard that rationalisation...

Have a look at this from another thread of mine...

Look at the context:





And then the disciples say



enough what?

Either its a rebuke for the disciples being thick, or thats enough swords.

If its the former, then it speaks for itself. If the latter, then there is a problem. Let me explain:

• 2 swords amongst 12 men - thats hardly enough even for self defence. Maybe for the 2 who have the sword, but what about the other 10?

• The word for "sword" is "small sword" - not much good agaist a large sword or spear.

But more seriously, immediately afterwards Christ went to the garden and was arrested,

• Peter used one of those swords and was rebuked for using it

• and then Christ says:

seems fairly plain to me. Or did Christ contradict Himself?

• and then undoes the work of the sword.

• And then of course, not once in the entire New Testament was this "command" to carry a sword for "self defence" ever carried out. If it was as you said - how come Paul didn't fight back when they were coming for him? How come Paul never urged his flock to also arm themselves for self defence?

I think its got more to do with the context of when Christ said this confusing statement:






Immediately afterwards, he talks about being numbered with the transgressors - i.e. criminals. And like criminals, it is an ironic or even mournful stab at the fact that criminals carry swords, purses and even bags to carry loot. As an oblique prophesy, it was certainly true, as tradition holds that all of the disciples were executed.

I'm not going to go to the cross on that interpretation, but at least it doesn't fly in the face of the rest of the NT and make all the rest of the apostles look like false teachers.

Bless you. I'd have to be very, very sure of myself before I embraced the clear teachings of Christ regarding gentleness and love your enemies, before abandoning it for man-made conglomerates like "Just War Theory".

That is all.

This is a very fine post indeed and i for just a fine one as this. I too believe that this was is very foolish for these people live only to kill us and we are doing little good, I say we evacuate(sp) every Christian out of Iraq and leave with as much oil as we can carry. [imperialism I believe is a respectable tool which any nation may use, or at least Christian nation, however this forum is not for this topic]. Does Christ say to defend yourself against a murderer or rapeist??? He says turn the other cheek, I believe this to be a matter of civil affares and not external affares. I suppose since Christ did not say have an army to defend everyone we should all hope that unbelievers will keep away?

 

[ScottishJohn]

This is a very fine post indeed and i for just a fine one as this. I too believe that this was is very foolish for these people live only to kill us and we are doing little good, I say we evacuate(sp) every Christian out of Iraq and leave with as much oil as we can carry. [imperialism I believe is a respectable tool which any nation may use, or at least Christian nation, however this forum is not for this topic]. Does Christ say to defend yourself against a murderer or rapeist??? He says turn the other cheek, I believe this to be a matter of civil affares and not external affares. I suppose since Christ did not say have an army to defend everyone we should all hope that unbelievers will keep away?

If you read your bible you will see that as Christians we are to expect and welcome persecution. I haven't read anything about retaliation.

Psalm 119:157
Matthew 5:10-12
Matthew 5:44 'Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who persecute you.'
Matthew 10:23
Matthew 24:9
Luke 21:12
John 15:20
Romans 12:14 'Bless those who curse you bless and do not curse.'
1 Corinthians 4:12
2 Corinthians 12:10
2 Timothy 3:12

 

[thankyou4]

Why do you guys need to look in a book to check if murder is ok? Listen to your heart

 

[ScottishJohn]

Why do you guys need to look in a book to check if murder is ok? Listen to your heart

I was talking about the persecution of Christians. It seems to me that there are a lot of Christians who promote the 'they gave us a bloody nose, so lets give them one back and a kick on the shin' mentality, whereas I think the bloody nose is somethign we should expect int he first place. I wasn't really talking about murder.

 

[gnine]

...and for those who say that Christ used a whip to strike people and drive them from the temple.

"In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!" John 2:14-16 niv

Gotta be careful about reading too much into this incident.

Firstly: only John mentions anything about a whip, and only John mentions cattle and sheep. The other gospels talk about doves.

Mat21:12Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves.


Mark 11:15On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple area and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, 16and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts.

See?

Now it actually makes sense to me that Jesus used the whip on the cattle - because cows are big and hard to move (ever tried to move a cow with bare hands?) - also that it says "both sheep and cattle" immediately after. i.e. Christ didn't use the whip on men or the doves.

Secondly: What do you think the temple was like a day after Christ had finished? I bet that it returned to exactly the way it was before Christ caused a minor disruption to the course of business. Cleansing the temple? More like a symbolic fulfilment of a prophesy. Christ didn't lead a commando raid of disciples into the temple to "kill em all and sort 'em out later".

Probably the disciples were embarrassed.

Thirdly: There is no evidence that Christ used physical violence on men - overturning tables and scattering coins is not the same as shooting people or blowing them to pieces.

The authors of the gospel probably never dreamed that christians would use they're single mention of a whip as an excuse to kill those who disagreed with them 2000 years later.


Mysterious passages such as

http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/...age=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=onJohn 7:30
At this they tried to seize him, but no one laid a hand on him, because his time had not yet come.


http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/...age=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=onJohn 8:20
He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.

When Christ was being physically threatened suggest that Christ/God had control of the situation at all times - including control over those who were threatening Him. And no violence was necessary against them to do this.

...and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts.

Once again, can't be sure that Christ did anything other than stand in their way. Because he was revered as a prophet (at that stage), they were probably frightened to raise a hand against him.

I'm quite happy to accept that Christ is the Judge of the world, and that when he does judge it will be violent and bloody. But until then, Christ stopped His proclamation of Isaiah 61 just before he got to:

and the day of vengeance of our God,

Until then

Matthew 5
44But I tell you: Love your enemies[1] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?

PRAY for those who persecute you, and love them too.

and

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. Mat.5:9

Radical - flies in the face of all worldly common sense, don't it?

 

[pantsman52]

This is a very fine post indeed and i for just a fine one as this. I too believe that this was is very foolish for these people live only to kill us and we are doing little good, I say we evacuate(sp) every Christian out of Iraq and leave with as much oil as we can carry. [imperialism I believe is a respectable tool which any nation may use, or at least Christian nation, however this forum is not for this topic]. Does Christ say to defend yourself against a murderer or rapeist??? He says turn the other cheek, I believe this to be a matter of civil affares and not external affares. I suppose since Christ did not say have an army to defend everyone we should all hope that unbelievers will keep away?

No wonder the world hates us.

 

[armyman_83]

If you read your bible you will see that as Christians we are to expect and welcome persecution. I haven't read anything about retaliation.

I suppose saving someone by using force is a sin as well? Last time I checked Christianity and Cowardice were not synonyms.

 

[ScottishJohn]

I suppose saving someone by using force is a sin as well? Last time I checked Christianity and Cowardice were not synonyms.

Who says not striking back is cowardice? Who says by hitting back you save someone? Hitting back is all about posturing, saving face and pride. Pride is a sin. At the end of the day the world is our temporary home, and I would rather be wrongly thought of as a coward by ignorant people on earth, than miss out on my place in heaven. Check your bible. Atthe end of the day if someone hits you how important is it? Important enough to risk your salvation? Not in my book. Check your Bible...

 

[ScottishJohn]

PRAY for those who persecute you, and love them too.

and

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. Mat.5:9

Radical - flies in the face of all worldly common sense, don't it?

You must spread etc etc!

Fantastic Post gnine!

 

[armyman_83]

Who says not striking back is cowardice? Who says by hitting back you save someone? Hitting back is all about posturing, saving face and pride. Pride is a sin. At the end of the day the world is our temporary home, and I would rather be wrongly thought of as a coward by ignorant people on earth, than miss out on my place in heaven. Check your bible. Atthe end of the day if someone hits you how important is it? Important enough to risk your salvation? Not in my book. Check your Bible...

Have you missed the verse saying "Greater love hath no man, than this, that a man lay down his life for his friend." John 15:13? So it is wrong to save someone by force??? I suppose that you would tell all those who saved Christians in China from the Boxers that they are nothing but murderers? I suppose cops are wrong for killing madmen, I suppose you would rather someone let there family be raped and murdered than to kill those who are in the wrong.

 

[gnine]

Have you missed the verse saying "Greater love hath no man, than this, that a man lay down his life for his friend." John 15:13? So it is wrong to save someone by force??? I suppose that you would tell all those who saved Christians in China from the Boxers that they are nothing but murderers? I suppose cops are wrong for killing madmen, I suppose you would rather someone let there family be raped and murdered than to kill those who are in the wrong.

You've got it all wrong again...

How funny it would be if a soldier's job was to lay down his life for his friends... all wars would be over real quick and no one would need to even leave their own country.

No, no, no.

A soldier's job is to get the OTHER side's soldiers to lay down THIER lives, whilst trying their darndest to keep their own.

I would have thought that, with a little bit of clear thinking and less listening to sloganeering, that point was completely obvious.

 

[murron]

closed due to numerous rule violations.