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Yes and often visions are different than we think of them today. They are called visions because they are seen by the eye....real things in real time that are real.
A vision means something visual seen, not an imaginary vision of things that aren't real.
Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
G3705
??´?aµa
horama
hor'-am-ah
From G3708; something gazed at, that is, a spectacle (especially supernatural): - sight, vision.
Mark makes this clear:
Mar 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
Luk 9:36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.
And so does Luke.
Yes and often visions are different than we think of them today. They are called visions because they are seen by the eye....real things in real time that are real.
A vision means something visual seen, not an imaginary vision of things that aren't real.
Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
G3705
??´?aµa
horama
hor'-am-ah
From G3708; something gazed at, that is, a spectacle (especially supernatural): - sight, vision.
Mark makes this clear:
Mar 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
Luk 9:36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.
And so does Luke.
Yes, they are.... but you wont be till you are resurrected... "the dead know nothing".... "from dust you came to dust you shall return"
some people think that all of reality is based on the known laws of this universe, but they are wrong.
the dead know nothing because the spiritually dead know nothing. they are concerned with the things of the world and not for the things of God. the flesh knows the things of the flesh and the spirit knows the things of the spirit.
people don't even know themselves until they find God. they are just dead, dry, scattered bones.
Go figure...God thinks differently on the subject...Eccl 9.5
the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.
6
Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.
7
Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favours what you do.
How about this one... Eccl 9.10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, [ Hebrew: Sheol ] where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.
i think that pretty much sums it up... dead is dead... until the resurrection
i'm a child of God and I don't die, though my flesh does perish. I was born inside of God and so how do you think that those born of God can die?
Rom 8:5-17 (NKJV)
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.†
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.†
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.†
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
The Spirit Conveys Divine Sonship
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.†
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.†
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”†
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.†
i'm a child of God and I don't die, though my flesh does perish. I was born inside of God and so how do you think that those born of God can die?
Rom 8:5-17 (YLT)
For those who are according to the flesh, the things of the flesh do mind; and those according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit; for the mind of the flesh is death, and the mind of the Spirit--life and peace; because the mind of the flesh is enmity to God, for to the law of God it doth not subject itself, for neither is it able; and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God. And ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God doth dwell in you; and if any one hath not the Spirit of Christ--this one is not His; and if Christ is in you, the body, indeed, is dead because of sin, and the Spirit is life because of righteousness, and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead shall quicken also your dying bodies, through His Spirit dwelling in you. So, then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh; for if according to the flesh ye do live, ye are about to die; and if, by the Spirit, the deeds of the body ye put to death, ye shall live; for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God; for ye did not receive a spirit of bondage again for fear, but ye did receive a spirit of adoption in which we cry, `Abba--Father.' The Spirit himself doth testify with our spirit, that we are children of God; and if children, also heirs, heirs, indeed, of God, and heirs together of Christ--if, indeed, we suffer together, that we may also be glorified together.
this is talking about spiritual life as opposed to worldly life:
Eccl 9:4-6 (YLT)
But to him who is joined unto all the living there is confidence, for to a living dog it is better than to the dead lion. For the living know that they die, and the dead know not anything, and there is no more to them a reward, for their remembrance hath been forgotten. Their love also, their hatred also, their envy also, hath already perished, and they have no more a portion to the age in all that hath been done under the sun.
the livings love, hatred, and envy die because they are born from above and receive the things of God. they receive no more from the age of this world but they receive from heaven (as a new creature) and they grow in spirit and in truth.
therefore God favors those born of the spirit and not those only born from the flesh. when we are born again we live our lives in this world for God and we become pleasing to Him.
the bible is a religious book, not a scientific book. first and foremost it has to do with the inner life of God and of man. the bible speaks on many levels, that is the nature of the wisdom of God who orders all things for our good.
the deads memory perishes because they die to themselves and love God and do not seek after rewards for God is their reward and they have him. that is why Jesus told us that we must pick up our cross and follow him.
here is shown the second adam who is alive in Christ and dying to himself.
"the living know that they will die..."
here is shown the first adam who is dead in sin.
...but the dead know nothing;"
Our flesh does perish, but our soul lives on. However, there still needs to be a physical resurrection. Christ has defeated death - not just with the soul, but death physically. Death was brought into the world at the Fall (in Genesis). Christ has defeated death and at the final day where Christ comes back in glory, our bodies will be raised - spiritually glorified, but our physical bodies nonetheless.
Humor me and take a look at the passage with the NKJV instead (some of this isn't directly related to this subject - but I'm struggling to see how you derived your opinion from this, so I think it is beneficial to see what this is discussing as a whole):
Let's look at the passage more closely (I'm going to look at the entire passage, as some of it relates to the resurrection but some does not):
8:5-8 The mind here is far more than intellectual capacity. It is the highest knowing faculty of the soul (Gr. nous), the spirit and understanding behind all we think and do. Thus, it follows that repentance literally means to have a “change of mind,” a change not only of intellect but of all our being.
To be carnally minded (v. 6) means to choose to have one's whole being captivated by sin. This decision against God puts us at enmity with Him (v. 7), and thus we have no lasting peace. To be spiritually minded means to accept liberation by the Spirit, so that one's whole being—body, mind, and soul—becomes directed by and is led to the Holy Spirit.
8:9 The Spirit of Christ declares the intimacy between the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Son becomes incarnate by the Holy Spirit (Mt 1:20) and in turn sends the Holy Spirit from the Father into the world (Jn 15:26; 16:7).
8:10 Though the body is dead (it is mortal) because of sin, the Holy Spirit gives new life, both now in this world and in the promised final resurrection.
8:13 The gift of new life requires the reception and cooperation of the believer through faith and obedience to God. We are His children (v. 14) as He leads us by the power of the Spirit. In this new life, the body becomes the follower, not the leader. In choosing the way of the Holy Spirit, we put to death sinful passions expressed through our thoughts, words, and deeds.
(Note that much of this passage is referring to our lives while we are here on earth as we accept the gift that God gives us).
8:14-17 Christians are adopted as children of God (v. 16) and therefore heirs (v. 17) of the same Kingdom Christ inherited when He ascended in the flesh into heaven. This standing is given by grace; what Christ inherited by His own nature, we receive as a gift. Our adoption (v. 15) is a fact of our baptism. Yet it rests on us to receive the love of this adoption by continuing in faith and turning constantly toward God. The experience of this adoption allows us to address God with the intimate term Abba, which means “Papa” (v. 15; see Gal 4:5-7). Just as Christ was resurrected physically, now that we share in His nature as a gift - we too will be physically raised at the final resurrection. Our spiritual eternal life will join with the physical eternal life, just as Christ experienced.
The unjust - at the Great White Throne judgment. But perhaps in the Tribulation also for the likes of the Anti-Christ.i've already posted a thread on the resurrection and now i think another element of the resurrection needs to be discussed.
when does the resurrection of the just and unjust take place?
reality is lifted up when we die and we shall find that the world still is but it conforms to our nature rather than we conforming to it. most people don't seem to think that they are a child of God and they think that they are only a child of nature. nature is in us and it oppresses us when we find ourselves trapped in it and that is what happened during the fall. I could not say that our body shall be a body so much as our minds shall be free. it is our spirit that is our body. the flesh is just a shell of a seed from which the celestial plant grows. we shall have a representative world in heaven just like we have in this symbolic universe, but it will be intensified. spirit is closer to the original reality that the physical universe is. the physical universe is one movement/moment and direction of spirit.
we will have bodies but it is death that is swallowed up by life, not life being contained by death. why else could the body of Jesus "disappear"? he is with us in the earth but he is not eating or breathing air with many of us, is he? or did you run into Jesus in this world? you know he was resurrected from the dead, so where is he? he will show himself wherever he pleases and it shall be the same for us.
mortal bodies still perish. immortal bodies do not. we already stand halfway in heaven because we are spirits. if you don't notice the other world then you might think that everything is based on what you see. we are a microcosmos and a microtheos, we have as many bodies as we desire to have. the church is a living spiritual organism but many Catholics seem to only want to acknowledge the earthly reflection of her. we are part of the body of Christ, united to him in spirit and so it follows that our flesh has a spiritual life while it exist.
it is nice that we can have a bodily reflection of our own nature, this is the hope we have for our spiritual body, because our flesh hides who we are. how else will there be a resurrection of shame and one of glory unless we see our souls for what they are?
maybe those in hell will be raised in cruder bodies. but crudeness of body does not get much worse than this flesh.
some people think that they are only flesh, what a torment that must be.
But surely you have to concede that this is not an exceptionless statement - unless Lazarus is still alive, he died twice.I also stated earlier that "it is appointed unto man to die once" Heb 9.27 look it up.
Our flesh does perish, but our soul lives on. However, there still needs to be a physical resurrection. Well, you got that all mixed up... see 1 cor 15 again...
No I don't have it mixed up. I know those scriptures and that doesn't change my opinion. We can agree to disagree on that.
l recommend checking out the way Christians interpreted those scriptures in the first few centuries...very enlightening.
what you just said does not coincide with 1 cor 15...
those that are resurrected...as explained in 1 cor 15...will put on a new body... it is not a physical body... the bible in no way indicates that it will be a physical body... it will be a spirit body...just like christ... christ was flesh and now he is not...
1 john 3.2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
you see when he appears, at his second coming and the resurrection... those in the first resurrection will have the same type of body and be just like him... obviously a different glory though as seen in 1 cor 15
I suspect, but only suspect, that you are misreading the word "spiritual" as it is used in 1 Corinthians 15. Here is my position on this:those that are resurrected...as explained in 1 cor 15...will put on a new body... it is not a physical body... the bible in no way indicates that it will be a physical body... it will be a spirit body...
Christ specifically pointed out that you could touch him for a reason. There is a reason His body was gone from the grave! It is a spiritual glorified body, a transformed body, but the same body. We will be transformed in a twinkling of an eye. Otherwise, it could be said that Christ hasn't fully conquered death.
It was considered a heresy in the early church to believe that it was a spirit body, not physical. These are the disciples of the disciples. Doesn't their interpretation have any value?
Christ specifically pointed out that you could touch him for a reason. There is a reason His body was gone from the grave! It is a spiritual glorified body, a transformed body, but the same body. We will be transformed in a twinkling of an eye. Otherwise, it could be said that Christ hasn't fully conquered death.
It was considered a heresy in the early church to believe that it was a spirit body, not physical. These are the disciples of the disciples. Doesn't their interpretation have any value?
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