When does Marian veneration and devotion go too far? When is the line crossed?

mkgal1 · Jan 14, 2014

Albion said:
It sounds to me like you are referring to something needed in order to properly understand the Bible, not a different and additional source of guidance besides the Bible.

The something that's needed (my opinion) is truth of the situations surrounding the biblical accounts (context). I don't understand the distinction you're making between "something needed" and "additional source of guidance".

It makes sense to me that a lot of context could have been passed on through generations (originating with those whom were present)---especially when there's the standard of being "of one mind".

There are going to be conflicting accounts thrown our way (usually)....and we weren't there, 2000 years ago, and context *does* matter in the understanding of truth. I believe the Holy Spirit guides us into what are the true accounts (as we need to know). Like everything else, His timing and provision is just when and how we need it. I believe He reveals as we're able to comprehend.....and as the information is necessary.

Thekla · Jan 14, 2014

Optimax said:
"Not explicitly" means it is not there.

The verse talks about different subjects explicitly.

I don't agree; for example, the particular conduct (ie disposition etc.) of Paul is not recorded in Scripture. Yet this is part of what is, according to Scripture, to be imitated.

How can one imitate what is not recorded ?

Sword of the Lord · Jan 14, 2014

sonshine234 said:
Very true, I was there at one time myself

Same here. I was a Pentecostal, turned Lutheran (LCMS). Spent a good 6 months inquiring into Catholicism and Orthodoxy, went back to Lutheranism for awhile, but now I'm on the very edge of converting to EO.

Kristos · Jan 14, 2014

Albion said:
The question that never gets answered.

I would think that if one believed that the Bible actually contains the infallible word of God, they would not "use" it to proof text. Shouldn't the Bible be worshiped then too? At least venerated, maybe a smooch here and there. I would think taking God out of context would be a primary fear of one who thought it is the infallible word of God, yet little such fear or respect exists.

GreekOrthodox · Jan 14, 2014

Mike, Im trying to get back to your OP. I think any devotion can go whacky, even devotion to God Himself. Back in college, I dated a girl who was fairly religious, but her devotion became more of an obsession. Every little challenge in her life because viewed through religion. Homework? That was God trying to get her to study more. Waking up on time for class? That was God desiring her to not be slothful. Having a snack? Yup, gluttony. Eventually, I broke things off.

A religious man is on top of a roof during a great flood. A man comes by in a boat and says "get in, get in!" The religous man replies, " no I have faith in God, he will grant me a miracle."

Later the water is up to his waist and another boat comes by and the guy tells him to get in again. He responds that he has faith in god and god will give him a miracle. With the water at about chest high, another boat comes to rescue him, but he turns down the offer again cause "God will grant him a miracle."

With the water at chin high, a helicopter throws down a ladder and they tell him to get in, mumbling with the water in his mouth, he again turns down the request for help for the faith of God. He arrives at the gates of heaven with broken faith and says to Peter, I thought God would grand me a miracle and I have been let down." St. Peter chuckles and responds, "I don't know what you're complaining about, we sent you three boats and a helicopter.

marie alice · Jan 14, 2014

OrthodoxyUSA said:
I turned the tables on you. Thought you'd like to see how it feels to be on the receiving end.

Care to continue without the personal attacks? Me too.

I made no unfounded allegations towards anyone. I neither deliberately attacked nor was I demeaning to anyone.

So, no, I would not like to continue any communications with you at the present time.

Standing Up · Jan 14, 2014

sonshine234 said:
Then stop cowering and back up your assertion that we should only use the Bible alone

Use the bible for what? Deciding what to have for a kosher dinner? Deciding when to get up to pray at midnight? Deciding what car to drive?

The bible is used to understand salvation. This is written so you might believe (John). Have certainty (Luke). The faith once delivered (Jude).

Things like Marian devotion, the hours to pray for a gentile, what to wear today, and things like this, are simply not salvific. The apostles and Jesus could care less. How do we know? They recorded what's efficacious for our common salvation is/as one Body.

Standing Up · Jan 14, 2014

Thekla said:
I don't agree; for example, the particular conduct (ie disposition etc.) of Paul is not recorded in Scripture. Yet this is part of what is, according to Scripture, to be imitated.

How can one imitate what is not recorded ?

How can one have a clue what it is since it's not recorded?

Kristos · Jan 14, 2014

Standing Up said:
Use the bible for what? Deciding what to have for a kosher dinner? Deciding when to get up to pray at midnight? Deciding what car to drive?

The bible is used to understand salvation. This is written so you might believe (John). Have certainty (Luke). The faith once delivered (Jude).

Things like Marian devotion, the hours to pray for a gentile, what to wear today, and things like this, are simply not salvific. The apostles and Jesus could care less. How do we know? They recorded what's efficacious for our common salvation is/as one Body.

Honestly, that is very strange distinction to make - it reduces the life we live, the way we conductor ourselves as Christians to meaninglessness.

marie alice · Jan 14, 2014

sonshine234 said:
So you can't give proof. You know the Bible was not always around

Where do you think the missives contained in the bible originated? Stop and think!

and St. Paul says not just to use Scripture, but what they taught also.

Where does Paul say this? What the apostles taught and what they wrote were identical. One does not contradict the other.

You'll find no where does it say to use the Bible alone, but many Protestants want to, they use a man made tradition of the Bible alone, but do not follow Scripture itself, where it says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth not a book.

You have yet to show me why I shouldnt use the bible alone. Where is there any other mode of communication that is identified as the inspired word of God?

The Scriptures are a word of God, Christ is the Word of God

Scripture is the written word of God.

Root of Jesse · Jan 14, 2014

Albion said:
How does that theory grant permission for -- or even logically suggest -- making the opinions of men its equal?

Well, we know there was a Church before there was a Bible. We know that the Word was spoken before it was written. So, when you say that the Bible is the only authority, it makes it look like those who worshipped Jesus before there was a Bible didn't have an authority. This is just not true. They had the authority-the Church, which is made up of men. Not just any men, though-men who had the guidance of the Holy Spirit. So it wasn't their opinion. It was God's. We believe that's plenty of logic, and plenty of permission.

marie alice · Jan 14, 2014

sonshine234 said:
Then stop cowering and back up your assertion that we should only use the Bible alone

duplicate post

marie alice · Jan 14, 2014

sonshine234 said:
Then stop cowering and back up your assertion that we should only use the Bible alone

Cowering you say? I already told you why I use the bible alone.

You, however, seem to be of the opinion that theres another source for the inspired word of God to be used in conjunction with the bible. So far youve failed to show me what it is.

Thekla · Jan 14, 2014

marie alice said:
Where does Paul say this? What the apostles taught and what they wrote were identical. One does not contradict the other.

Identical and non-contradictory are not the same.

Root of Jesse · Jan 14, 2014

Albion said:
How does that theory grant permission for -- or even logically suggest -- making the opinions of men its equal?

Well, we know there was a Church before there was a Bible. We know that the Word was spoken before it was written. So, when you say that the Bible is the only authority, it makes it look like those who worshipped Jesus before there was a Bible didn't have an authority. This is just not true. They had the authority-the Church, which is made up of men. Not just any men, though-men who had the guidance of the Holy Spirit. So it wasn't their opinion. It was God's. We believe that's plenty of logic, and plenty of permission.

Root of Jesse · Jan 14, 2014

marie alice said:
Cowering you say? I already told you why I use the bible alone.

You, however, seem to be of the opinion that theres another source for the inspired word of God to be used in conjunction with the bible. So far youve failed to show me what it is.

We are of the opinion that God speaks as well as writes, and that His speaking is as much the Word of God as His writing.

marie alice · Jan 14, 2014

Root of Jesse said:
We are of the opinion that God speaks as well as writes, and that His speaking is as much the Word of God as His writing.

And where can I find this oral communication from God? And how does one validate that this oral teaching is inspired by God?

Optimax · Jan 14, 2014

Thekla said:
I don't agree; for example, the particular conduct (ie disposition etc.) of Paul is not recorded in Scripture. Yet this is part of what is, according to Scripture, to be imitated.

How can one imitate what is not recorded ?

Paul must be confused then if you are not.

How can we followers of Paul if we have no record of how we are to follow?

Paul's conduct is recorded throughout the NT.

Let's start here:

Phil 3:17
Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. KJV

Phil 1:30
Having the same conflict which ye saw in me, and now hear to be in me.
KJV

Phil 3:12
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after , if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. KJV

And;

2 Tim 4:16
At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge . KJV

And;

Phil 4:11
Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content. KJV

And this one is a "biggie"

Phil 4:9
Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you. KJV

Root of Jesse · Jan 14, 2014

marie alice said:
And where can I find this oral communication from God? And how does one validate that this oral teaching is inspired by God?

In the writings of His Church. The validity can be checked against the teachings of the apostles, which were spoken first, not written. There can be no contradiction.

Root of Jesse · Jan 14, 2014

Optimax said:
Paul must be confused then if you are not.

How can we followers of Paul if we have no record of how we are to follow?

Paul's conduct is recorded throughout the NT.

Let's start here:

Phil 3:17
Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. KJV

Phil 1:30
Having the same conflict which ye saw in me, and now hear to be in me.
KJV

Phil 3:12
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after , if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. KJV

And;

2 Tim 4:16
At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge . KJV

And;

Phil 4:11
Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content. KJV

And this one is a "biggie"

Phil 4:9
Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you. KJV

So are you a Paulian, or a Christian?

When does Marian veneration and devotion go too far? When is the line crossed?

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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