When does any particular sin(s) become backsliding, apostasy, or "falling away?"

Direct Driver · Mar 17, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. Paul (Saul) is describing his experience of what it is like to struggle in keeping the Old Covenant Law that did not include Jesus Christ.

In fact, here are 8 reasons in Scripture that show us that Paul is indeed talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience) and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24.

#1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

#2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#3. Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problem with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#4. Paul says, "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). Okay. Let's break this down. Paul says, "But sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR SIN, works death in me." (Romans 7:13). Now, how can sin make it appear like it may not be sin? Well, if Jesus was raised and Saul (Paul) was still a Pharisee striving to obey the Old Law when the New Covenant Law was still in effect, the sin that Saul (Paul) was struggling with as a pharisee during that time would not really technically be sin in every case. For if Paul disobeyed certain Old Covenant laws while the New Covenant and it's laws were in effect, then Saul (Paul) is not really breaking any real commandments from God in every case. Hence, why Paul said, "...sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR (as) SIN." (Romans 7:13). The beginning of verse 13 is a foreshadow of what is to come in verses 14-24. Paul is stepping out for a brief moment as speaking as an Israelite living throughout history to speak of his condition as a Pharisee when he says, "...sin, that it might appear sin." In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

#6. In Romans 7:25, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

#7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Paul says elsewhere,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

(Romans 13:8-10).

So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).

#8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:

Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

Law #2. Sin and Death.
This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.

What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).

Source used for a small paragraph within this write up:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25

Did not read. Too long. I'm between meetings right now.

Mark Quayle · Mar 17, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Because POTS (Perseverance of the Saints) involves God keeping you. There is no chance of falling away or losing your salvation in POTS (Which suggests that God does all the keeping and not you).

Well, I'll give you credit for persistence! "What WILL INDEED COME TO PASS" does NOT IMPLY "Automatic". OK? There is a WHOLE LOT of activity in causation.

Bible Highlighter said:
Read the article. It sounds automatic to me.

I'm not even going to bother to look it up. I have no doubt you read it with that same false presupposition with which you read everything Calvinistic/Reformed.

Again: The fact that God has predestined something to happen does not imply that it will happen "automatically". IT TAKES DOING, TO DO SOMETHING.

Bible Highlighter said:
The topic of the OP deals with apostasy and confession of sin to be forgiven of sin. POTS just does not agree with that.

Not that I agree with you that POTS denies any of that, but, SO WHAT if POTS disagrees with that? Why bring that into the topic? You don't even believe in POTS so why bring it up?

chilehed · Mar 17, 2021

Paulomycin said:
How many times do you sin, confess, sin, confess, sin, confess, etc., before you wake up and realize you're simply nothing more than a hypocrite/apostate?

The way you asked this demonstrates a category error. Apostacy is the abandonment of the faith, which obviously wouldn't apply to one who recognizes that he commited a sin, repents of it, and by confessing asks God to help him sin no more. An apostate would think "yeah, so what, I didn't do anything wrong, go kick rocks".

aiki · Mar 17, 2021

Paulomycin said:
Will some sins get you there faster than others? If so, which ones? How many times do you sin, confess, sin, confess, sin, confess, etc., before you wake up and realize you're simply nothing more than a hypocrite/apostate?

I think in such a case only one of two things is true:

1. One has never been truly saved.
2. One is saved, but has not understood how to walk with God.

These days, it seems to me more likely that the first option is true. The Church is full of "tares," "false brethren" the apostle Paul called them, invited into the community of believers through the "seeker-sensitive" church model and the empire building of mega-church leaders. These "tares," trying to live the Christian life without being genuinely spiritually-regenerated, find doing so ultimately impossible. Oh, they might on the surface appear to succeed, participating in the life of the Church quite extensively, but like the Pharisees of Jesus's time, their hearts are far from God (Hebrews 6:4-6; Matthew 15:8). And when they finally give up the frustrating and inevitably hypocritical attempt to live the Christian life from their own resources of will and strength, they depart the faith, revealing in doing so, not that they were saved and lost their salvation, but that they never had it to begin with. (1 John 2:19)

There are others, though, who are truly born-again, but have not been discipled in the early stages of their faith and established in the basics of walking with God. They know nothing of the crucified life, of the identification truths, or of appropriating by faith the promises of God and their new identity in Christ. They know only that they have been saved from hell, unaware that they have been saved unto a new life in the Saviour. And so, these "babes in Christ" (1 Corinthians 3:1) remain perennially juvenile in their faith (Hebrews 5:12-14), stumbling and falling regularly, never advancing to spiritual maturity.

lismore · Mar 17, 2021

Paulomycin said:
Will some sins get you there faster than others? If so, which ones? How many times do you sin, confess, sin, confess, sin, confess, etc., before you wake up and realize you're simply nothing more than a hypocrite/apostate?

I have always found this scripture useful: Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will (Romans 12:2). God Bless You

HatGuy · Mar 17, 2021

Paulomycin said:
Will some sins get you there faster than others? If so, which ones? How many times do you sin, confess, sin, confess, sin, confess, etc., before you wake up and realize you're simply nothing more than a hypocrite/apostate?

Apostasy is about losing faith deliberately (that's literally what it means), not about sin.

If one could lose their salvation, this doesn't happen due to sin but due to a loss of faith. Sin might lead you to give up your faith, but this is not a given - sin is often about genuine weakness. We are sick and need healing from the healer; we don't (and can't) heal ourselves before coming to the healer.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 17, 2021

Direct Driver said:
It says IF you are doing X, THEN you will do Y. That is LITERALLY what it is saying.

So IF you walk in the light, you WILL love your brother.

It really can't be any simpler. The only question left is, what does "walking in the light" mean? I believe it means you are saved by the blood of Christ. By definition you are now walking in the light.

Therefore, you love your brother in the light. I honestly think you have it exactly backwards. I feel like you are suggesting that "if I love my brother, I'm walking in the light." You've got X and Y backwards.

Direct Driver said:
I really have no more to say. I stand by what I've said and I believe the scripture supports it - and is very simple. I don't understand why you are trying to read it so differently from what it plainly says. If X, then Y. And likewise, if not X, then not Y. That's it.

In order to determine what is the “light” and what is the “darknesss,” we have to define them according to what the Bible says and not in what we want them to say.

What is the light according to the apostle John?

#1. God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. (1 John 1:5).

So God is the light.

So when we read in 1 John 1:7 that says...“if we walk in the light as He is in the light,” it is referring to how if we walk in God the Father [the light] as He [Christ] is in [the light] God the Father. That is what 1 John 1:7 is saying. For we read in the proceeding context about how John and the others have fellowship with the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.

#1 “That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
#2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you
that eternal life, which was with the Father,
and was manifested unto us; )
#3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.” (1 John 1:1-3).

What is the darkness according to the apostle John?

#1. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth (1 John 1:6). This is similiar to 1 John 2:4. Please Read it.
#2. He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now (1 John 2:9).
#3. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. (John 3:19-21).

What is darkness according to the rest of the Bible?

#1. but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness (Luke 11:34).
#2. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them (Ephesians 5:11).

Darkness is sin and or hating your brother according to the Bible.

Okay, so taking this all into account, we must understand that if we walk in the light of God the Father, as He (Christ) is in God the Father (Who is the light), we will love our brother (1 John 2:9-11 cf. 1 John 3:10), and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Darkness is hating our brother. So if we hate our brother and say we have fellowship with God, we lie and do not the truth. For loving our brother is a commandment (1 John 3:23). This is why 1 John 2:3 basically says we can have an assurance in knowing the Lord if we find we are keeping His commandments. This is why 1 John 2:4 basically says that the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in them. What truth is not in them? Jesus. For Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6).

Bible Highlighter · Mar 17, 2021

Direct Driver said:
I really have no more to say. I stand by what I've said and I believe the scripture supports it - and is very simple. I don't understand why you are trying to read it so differently from what it plainly says. If X, then Y. And likewise, if not X, then not Y. That's it.

So can you hate your brother (or not love your brother) and still say that you walk in the light of God?

Can you still have the blood of Jesus cleanse you of all sin even if you hate your brother or you do not love him?

If you say... “No” then this means I am correct and you need to meet the condition of loving your brother in order to abide under the condition of walking in the light (abiding in God the Father as HE (Christ) abides in the light, or God the Father) in order for the blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse you from all sin. This means it is more than just a belief alone in Jesus to have the blood cleanse you. You need to make sure you are continually loving your brother so as to walk in the light of God and have the blood of Jesus cleanse you of all sin.

If you say... “Yes” then you would be speaking against the truth of 1 John 1:6 that states: “If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:” and you would be speaking against 1 John 2:9 that says, “He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.”

Bible Highlighter · Mar 17, 2021

Direct Driver said:
I really have no more to say. I stand by what I've said and I believe the scripture supports it - and is very simple. I don't understand why you are trying to read it so differently from what it plainly says. If X, then Y. And likewise, if not X, then not Y. That's it.

God the Father and Jesus can make their abode (i.e. His home) in a person if they keep the words of Jesus. For it is written:

“Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.” (John 14:23).

Bible Highlighter · Mar 17, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Well, I'll give you credit for persistence! "What WILL INDEED COME TO PASS" does NOT IMPLY "Automatic". OK? There is a WHOLE LOT of activity in causation.

I'm not even going to bother to look it up. I have no doubt you read it with that same false presupposition with which you read everything Calvinistic/Reformed.

Again: The fact that God has predestined something to happen does not imply that it will happen "automatically". IT TAKES DOING, TO DO SOMETHING.

Not that I agree with you that POTS denies any of that, but, SO WHAT if POTS disagrees with that? Why bring that into the topic? You don't even believe in POTS so why bring it up?

I address POTS because that is what Calvinists believe and you are a Calvinist. So if I am going to be able to have a discussion with you on apostasy or confessing sin, we first need to understand what POTS is really saying. POTS is saying that GOD is making you to persevere and it really is not up to you. If this is not the case, then you would be a Conditional Salvationist like me. In other words, POTS is not about Conditional Salvation. Conditional Salvation is saying that I have to receive Jesus and believe the gospel, and I have to continue in the faith and continue in God's grace. God is not going to force me to do any of these things. For we are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Yes, God may nudge me and or influence me to a degree, but He will not force His salvation upon me in any way. POTS is saying that the way of salvation is guaranteed. No need to worry about anything. There is no need to work out your salvation with fear and trembling in POTS.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 17, 2021

Direct Driver said:
what does "walking in the light" mean? I believe it means you are saved by the blood of Christ. By definition you are now walking in the light.

Therefore, you love your brother in the light. I honestly think you have it exactly backwards. I feel like you are suggesting that "if I love my brother, I'm walking in the light." You've got X and Y backwards.

Please show me in the Bible where it says that “walking in the light” = being saved by the blood of Jesus? Where do we see light as associated with the blood of Jesus as mentioned in the context by the apostle John?

1 John 1:5 says that the light is God and there is no darkness in Him.

So God is the light (1 John 1:5).

So 1 John 1:7 is saying that if we walk in God [i.e. the Light]. But we cannot say we abide in God and walk in darkness (1 John 1:6). This is a direct connection with 1 John 2:4 that says that the person who says they know the Lord and yet they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them. 1 John 1:6 and 1 John 2:4 are saying the same thing but they are using different wording. So we cannot break God's commandments and claim we walk in the light of God whereby the blood of Jesus would cleanse us from all sin.

Gregory Thompson · Mar 17, 2021

Paulomycin said:
Will some sins get you there faster than others? If so, which ones? How many times do you sin, confess, sin, confess, sin, confess, etc., before you wake up and realize you're simply nothing more than a hypocrite/apostate?

There's a life cycle.

James 1
13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: {evil: or, evils }
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Desire grows for a time like a child in a womb and then becomes death, John speaks of this and says that one is not obligated to pray for someone who has sinned unto death. After death has grown for a while (if it doesn't kill your body) it becomes demonic in nature.

So any particular sin becomes backsliding, when it is allowed to continue to grow, it becomes apostasy, when the sin becomes as death, it becomes as falling away when it is demonic in quality. See also the last half of James 3 for a fruit test regarding demonic and heavenly wisdom.

chad kincham · Mar 17, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
It's all in God's hands. Thank God for his mercy.

Paul makes clear that AFTERwe have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between our wanting to walk in the flesh, (that wants us to live in sin)- and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us - and Paul warns that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven:

Gal 5:16 ThisI say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these;Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told youin time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul warns us over and over, that if we believers choose to walk after the flesh, we will die spiritually - but if we choose to walk after the spirit, we will have everlasting life:

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded isDEATH, but to be spiritually minded isLIFE and peace.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind isENMITY against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Verse 8:7 Paul warns above, that having a carnal mind is ENMITY against God, meaning you actually become Gods ENEMY.

Will God let His enemies into heaven?

Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is ENMITY with God? whosoever therefore will be a FRIEND OF THE WORLD is the ENEMY of God.

The verse above says sexual sins and being worldly, makes you Gods ENEMY.

Will God welcome His enemies into heaven?

Scripture clearly shows that continuing to remain in Christ is conditional on us 1) continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and 2) continuing to walk after the spirit, instead of after the flesh.

Saint Steven · Mar 17, 2021

MMXX said:
I don't think He gives up on us at all, but gives us the free will to reject Him.

I've noticed those who I've known who became apostate, can't stop talking about Him. I think that's because God is persuing them.

The Bible refers to this as the reprobate (depraved) mind, to which God gives some over to. NIV and KJV compared below.

Romans 1:28 KJV
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Romans 1:28 NIV
Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

Saint Steven · Mar 17, 2021

RDKirk said:
It says: "....to be brought back to repentance."

It tells us that this person had once been fully immersed in the Spirit but has subsequently turned away and rejected the Spirit and, in fact, recanted his original repentance. It tells us that one who has fully known the Spirit and then rejected the Spirit will not--and this is of his own accord--return to the Spirit.

Right. But haven't we all heard testimonies to the contrary? God doesn't cast us off if we fall. He will always take us back.

Saint Steven · Mar 17, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
So, you do believe, after all, that God's determining to whom he will show mercy, is irrevocable!.Yay! Welcome aboard!

Provided EVERYONE is onboard. (all people eventually)

Saint Steven said: ↑
I would add... We cannot undo, by an act of our own will, what only God can do in the first place.

RDKirk · Mar 17, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Right. But haven't we all heard testimonies to the contrary? God doesn't cast us off if we fall. He will always take us back.

That's why I said: "...that one who has fully known the Spirit and then rejected the Spirit will not--and this is of his own accord--return to the Spirit."

Saint Steven · Mar 17, 2021

RDKirk said:
That's why I said: "...that one who has fully known the Spirit and then rejected the Spirit will not--and this is of his own accord--return to the Spirit."

That's great. But I don't see how we can make this scripture say that. Can you explain what you mean? Thanks.

Hebrews 6:4-6 NIV
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Kenny'sID · Mar 17, 2021

Jeshu said:
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

And if we stop doing that, that is when I'd say we got a problem.

PaulCyp1 · Mar 17, 2021

God is aware that human beings are imperfect, which is why He calls us to ongoing repentance, on those occasions when we fail to do His will. He created us to be with Him for all eternity in Heaven, which would be impossible if He did not provide the opportunity for ongoing forgiveness for the many times we fail. However, as we grow in our relationship with Him, and receive more and more of His grace, we gradually turn away from sin and become more subject to His will. Never perfect, but always better.

When does any particular sin(s) become backsliding, apostasy, or "falling away?"

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

Well-Known Member

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner

You can call me Steve

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

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