When does any particular sin(s) become backsliding, apostasy, or "falling away?"

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, it is.

If they are your thoughts, and they are not Scripture, then there is no basis for me to trust what you say. I don't build my faith on the ideas of men, but I build my faith on God's Word. For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

 

[ozso]

Yes, Jesus is talking to the Jews.
But notice that this sin was also possible to commit in the world to come, as well.

“And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.” (Matthew 12:32).​

In Matthew 12:32: The “whosoever” is in context to the believer who has tasted of God’s Spirit because it says that this sin can be committed in the “world to come.” The “world to come” is the Millennium or the 1,000 year reign of Jesus Christ. Everyone will all start out be a Spirit filled believer because Christ will be living and reigning in this time period. So only the Spirit filled Christian who seeks to turn away from God and who speaks bad words against the Spirit will never be forgiven.

Jesus says to the Pharisees:

“Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.” (Matthew 12:33).​

If these Pharisees were forever condemned by their committing the unforgivable sin here, then why is Jesus telling them to make the tree good and his fruit good? This means that there is still hope for these Pharisees because they said what they did in ignorance like Paul’s actions were done in ignorance before encountering Jesus and His grace.

Jesus says,

“But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:” (Mark 3:29).​

“Danger” is the keyword here to focus on here. If you are in danger, you have a chance to change your course, and be safe and out of danger. If you get a warning of danger by seeing a shark fin in the water, you would swim as fast as you can to safety. If you were in a burning building, you would be in danger of being burned up, unless you got out and or you called the fire department to rescue you. Danger means you are seriously close to a bad thing happening but it does not mean that bad has already happened to you. When we experience “danger” we are receiving a warning or sign that we are very close to disaster, harm, or destruction.

“Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God: But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God. And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven. And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.” (Luke 12:8-12).​

In Luke 12:8-12: It starts out talking to the believer and it ends with talking to the Spirit filled believer (for the passage ends saying that the Holy Ghost shall teach you what you ought to say); Yet, in the middle of this conversation, it refers to how blasphemy against the Spirit can never be forgiven. This implies that only the Christian who tasted of the Spirit can only speak bad words towards the Spirit and it is not referring to the unbeliever here. For obviously if we denied God as an atheist before coming to the faith, that does not mean we cannot accept Jesus later on, and be forgiven. So the blasphemy of the Spirit is only possible for a Christian who had tasted of the Spirit (Especiallly when we look at the whole counsel of God’s Word).

Yes I get it. Most believers are in constant danger going to hell one way or another. That sums up just about every post you make from what I've seen. Which I've gotten tired of, so I'm not going to read them any longer.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, I get it. Most believers are going to hell one way or another. That sums up just about every post you make. Which I've gotten tired of, so I'm not going to read them any longer.

What is the world to come? How can they commit the blasphemy of the Spirit in the world to come? These are questions that you have to ask yourself when you read the Bible. We cannot cherry pick verses we like and ignore the rest of God's Word that we don't like to hear.

 

[Minister Monardo]

Matthew 6:15 makes it clear that if we don't forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father. I cannot imagine being saved and yet also not being forgiven by the Father. Not being forgiven by the Father implies one is not saved.

Even more definitive, and unequivocal:
Matthew 18:
33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’
34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was
due to him.
35 So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.

 

[Clare73]

No. Hebrews 3 says, “Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.” (Hebrews 3:12).

The author of Hebrews mentions nothing to those he is writing to here about how they had a false profession of faith here.

That is you adding that to the text here.

I am understanding the text in the light of the whole counsel of God, e.g., Luke 8:13 and 1 John 2:19.

The writer of Hebrews is no position to know their heart, if their faith is profession only. That knowledge belongs to God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am understanding the text in the light of the whole counsel of God, e.g., Luke 8:13 and 1 John 2:19.

The writer of Hebrews is no position to know their heart, if their faith is profession only. That knowledge belongs to God.

Sorry, I don't believe you. You are not properly taking into account the truths found in Hebrews 3:12, Luke 15:11-32, and James 5:19-20, etc.; I just read and believe these verses plainly. 1 John 2:19 is not an exhaustive truth for every professing believer throughout time.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Even more definitive, and unequivocal:
Matthew 18:
33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’
34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was
due to him.
35 So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.

Indeed.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am understanding the text in the light of the whole counsel of God, e.g., Luke 8:13 and 1 John 2:19.

The writer of Hebrews is no position to know their heart, if their faith is profession only. That knowledge belongs to God.

In regards to 1 John 2:19:

See my Post #73 on a large number of list of verses on how believers can fall away.

 

[disciple Clint]

Not so much doing works as it is the thought of endeavoring to live out our faith, staying faithful is our salvation.

 

[zoidar]

Will some sins get you there faster than others? If so, which ones? How many times do you sin, confess, sin, confess, sin, confess, etc., before you wake up and realize you're simply nothing more than a hypocrite/apostate?

I hate to admit it, but lately my life has been a lot like that. Why am I this weak?

I have realized, on my own I can't overcome, I need Him to overcome for me.

Watch over your heart with all diligence,
For from it flow the springs of life.
— Proverbs 4:23

 

[Clare73]

In regards to 1 John 2:19:

See my Post #73 on a large number of list of verses on how believers can fall away.

Non-responsive. . .the issue is profession vs. possession.
.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am understanding the text in the light of the whole counsel of God, e.g., Luke 8:13 and 1 John 2:19.

The writer of Hebrews is no position to know their heart, if their faith is profession only. That knowledge belongs to God.

In regards to Luke 8:13:

Some facts to know about the Parable of the Sower:

#1. In the Parable of the Weeds, we learn that He that sows the good seed is the Son of man (Jesus) (Matthew 13:37).

#2. The seed is the word of God, i.e. the gospel message from the Scriptures (Luke 8:11) (For we are born of incorruptible seed, which is the word of God that endures forever, see: 1 Peter 1:23-25; Also the words of Jesus are spiritual and they are life - John 6:63).

#3. Only those individuals who are labeled as: "The seed by the way side" are those who when they have heard the word, Satan came immediately, and took away the word that was sown in their hearts. (Mark 4:15). This is not said of the other seeds who fell away.

#4. The alternative to the "seed by way side" to be saved is if they "believe" in order to be saved (Luke 8:12). For Luke 8:12 says, "lest they should believe and be saved."

#5. We see that the one of the other seeds (that fell away later) do believe. However, they only believe for a while. Meaning, they are only saved for a while. For Luke 8:13 says, "They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."

#6. What was the cause of their falling away? Was it because they never believed in the first place? No. It was in time of temptation that they fall away (Again see Luke 8:13) (Also see Hebrews 3:12-14).

#7. The plants sprung up (Which means they had life).
Luke 8:6-7 says, "And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it. In other words, it choked the life out of it. 1 Timothy 6:10 says, "For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." We are told to continue in His goodness, otherwise we will be cut off (See Romans 11:21-22).

#8. They had "no root" within themselves (Matthew 13:21) is that they did not have root in ALL of God's Word. They only believed the milk of the Word (the gospel message of salvation in Jesus - The entrance to salvation) (1 Corinthians 3:2) (1 Peter 2:2), but they did not move on to the meat of the Word (Which is discern between good and evil - Hebrews 5:14). They did not have a root in doing righteousness (Which is also by Jesus Christ - Romans 13:14, John 15:5). Proverbs 12:3 says, "A man shall not be established by wickedness: but the root of the righteous shall not be moved." For he that does righteousness is righteous (1 John 3:7). This is the root, they did not have. It is the teachings of Jesus that tell us to live holy and righteous as a part of God's saving grace. Instead, they fell away due to specific sins like being offended by persecution and falling into desiring to be rich.

 

[Mark Quayle]

So you don't believe in Perseverance of the Saints?

How can you possibly get this, out of what I said?!

Again, the point of the verses I brought forth is to show that we are not going to just automatically obey, but we need to do our part in order for God to continue to move in our life. God is not going to force us to be a certain way. Yet, that is what Perseverance of the Saints implies. It implies it is all God forcing a person to be a certain way when that is not what the Bible teaches.

This is really getting old. Over and over I and others have repeated to you that there's no point in you tearing down your own strawman. I do not, and Reformed Theology does not, say that obedience is automatic.

Side Note:

As for the topic of this thread:
I believe our discussion here relates to the topic of the thread.

Oh, great! Then tie it in! Go ahead and show how your strawman relates to the OP!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Non-responsive. . .the issue is profession vs. possession.
.

That is a quick and dismissive way to deal with the verses that you did not even look at. Hebrews 3:12 says you can depart from the living GOD. Where in the context does it talk about a mere profession of faith in God only and that this is what we are warned not to depart from?

 

[Mark Quayle]

I would add... We cannot undo, by an act of our own will, what only God can do in the first place.

So, you do believe, after all, that God's determining to whom he will show mercy, is irrevocable!.Yay! Welcome aboard!

 

[renniks]

Will some sins get you there faster than others? If so, which ones? How many times do you sin, confess, sin, confess, sin, confess, etc., before you wake up and realize you're simply nothing more than a hypocrite/apostate?

When you no longer have remorse, and when you no longer believe in the basics of the Christian faith.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How can you possibly get this, out of what I said?!

Because POTS (Perseverance of the Saints) involves God keeping you. There is no chance of falling away or losing your salvation in POTS (Which suggests that God does all the keeping and not you).

This is really getting old. Over and over I and others have repeated to you that there's no point in you tearing down your own strawman. I do not, and Reformed Theology does not, say that obedience is automatic.

Read the article. It sounds automatic to me.

Oh, great! Then tie it in! Go ahead and show how your strawman relates to the OP!

The topic of the OP deals with apostasy and confession of sin to be forgiven of sin. POTS just does not agree with that.

 

[Clare73]

That is a quick and dismissive way to deal with the verses that you did not even look at. Hebrews 3:12 says you can depart from the living GOD.
Where in the context does it talk about a mere profession of faith in God only and that this is what we are warned not to depart from?

Where in any context does it say, "God is sovereign"?

Or "God is three in one"?

Or "Jesus is God"?

The whole counsel of God is not in Heb 3:12.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Where in any context does it say, "God is sovereign"?

The whole counsel of God is not in Heb 3:12.

Neither can we just ignore Hebrews 3, either. We need to establish the context of Hebrews 3 in what it is saying. If what you say is true, then Hebrews 3 should be referring to departing from a profession of faith in the living God instead of an actual real departure from the living God. Read the chapter and ask yourself if this sounds like a false professiing believer departing from the living God in Hebrews 3:12, or does it sound like a genuine believer can depart from the living God. Don't just throw back security verses or put up your opinion quickly. Read the chapter now slowly and really hear what it is saying and ask yourself these questions. Ask God honestly for what the text really says vs. what you want it to say.

 

[Direct Driver]

Read 1 John 2:9 carefully.
It says he that says he is in the light and yet hates his brother is in darkness.

This relates to keeping His commands (1 John 3:23). 1 John 2:4 says a similar thing. It basically says that the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar, and the truth is not in them.

I really have no more to say. I stand by what I've said and I believe the scripture supports it - and is very simple. I don't understand why you are trying to read it so differently from what it plainly says. If X, then Y. And likewise, if not X, then not Y. That's it.