When do the last days end?

[DavidPT]

As someone who leans towards preterism, I too believe that unbelieving people exist after the coming of Christ.

Since you threw preterism in here, I have to wonder what you are meaning by the coming of Christ? There are two comings of Christ. So which coming are you meaning? I guess you need to explain what you are meaning by what you said above, so that way no one misunderstands what you are meaning.

 

[joshua 1 9]

How could they ask about the end of an age they had no idea was even coming?

Jesus teaches them back in Matthew 12:32 "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come.

1) Where in Matt 24 do you assert Jesus answers their Question about WHEN the temple would fall?

I don't, we know now from our History book when the temple fell. It is recorded in the Greek history because they used the stones from the temple to build the Colosseum, because they found a historic plaque there to that effect. The arena was finished 10 years after they tore the temple down. There was 100 days of celebration when it was built. The building still stands today and at the time it was know for the blood. Arena means sand and there was a sand floor designed to clean up the blood.

2) Hos is it the apostles could have been asking about the end of the Church age when they Had no Idea the Church age was even going to come into existence?

There are many, many, many different names for this age. Holy Spirit Dispensation, Age of Grace, Time of the Gentiles. Here in Matthew chapter 24 they call it the age to come. If I used that term it would not have much meaning for us today like it did for them back then. Of course the question was when would Jesus return. Often there is a reference to the clouds. Because more then one Old Testament Saint writes about the event. They were never looking for Jesus to come as a Lamb, they were looking for Him to come as a Lion. All of Jerusalem would have followed Him if He came to put an end to the Romans ruling over them. This is why Pilate washed his hands. When he talked to Jesus he was told that Jesus was not going to lead a rebellion against the Roman empire. So Pilate wanted to release him because there was no harm in Him.

John 18:36 "Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place. 7“Then You are a king!” Pilate said. “You say that I am a king, Jesus answered. “For this reason I was born and have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to My voice.” 38“What is truth?” Pilate asked. And having said this, he went out again to the Jews and told them, “I find no basis for a charge against Him.…"

 

[joshua 1 9]

This is subjective. I could say the same about you. Let's stick to objective arguments.

Please answer the following questions:

According to Jesus, when does he repay those for what they have done?
Matthew 16:17 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
Revelation 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.

According to Paul, when are those who did not believe punished?
2 thessalonians 1:7-8 when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus





Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

As far as I know most people teach that there are three events. When Jesus comes for His church, He meets the Church in the air. Then when Jesus returns with His church and this time his feet touch the ground. Then there are the events that take place at the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ when we rule and reign with Jesus on the earth. Then there is a New Heaven and a New Earth so His reign is everlasting and never ends.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yet the end has not come. I speak to Christ's words not Paul, it is possible their context was different. Jesus is well know to speak in layered riddles, with what is received being one thing and what he actually means being another. I see Christ speaking to both the direct audience and the further audiences that read his words because he is Christ and he is able to be that good.

The end of Judiasm came. It definately came. When did Jesus speak in layered riddles. He actually said he taught openly. He did speak in parables but those are not layered riddles. He even explained many of them and there was one meaning altogether. The end of that age came and it came with fire and destructiong. The Gospel was preached to the known world and the end came. When Paul wrote that the end had not yet come, it hadn't at that point in time.

 

[claninja]

Since you threw preterism in here, I have to wonder what you are meaning by the coming of Christ?

This coming:
Mark 13:26 then they shall see the Son of Man coming in clouds with much power and glory

I guess you need to explain what you are meaning by what you said above, so that way no one misunderstands what you are meaning.

Preterists believe this is what the New Jerusalem is:

No more sea (no difference between jew and gentile)
Ephesians 2:19 Then, therefore, ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens of the saints, and of the household of God
Revelation 21:1 and the sea is not any more
The New Jerusalem/Church is the bride of the lamb
Ephesians 6:31 for this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined to his wife, and they shall be — the two — for one flesh;’ this secret is great, and I speak in regard to Christ and to the assembly;
Revelation 21:9 ‘Come, I will shew thee the bride of the Lamb — the wife,’
The apostles are the foundation of the Church/New Jerusalem
Ephesians 2:20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being chief corner-[stone]
Revelation 21:14 and the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
God dwells with the Church/New Jerusalem
Ephesians 2:22 whom also ye are builded together, for a habitation of God in the Spirit.
Revelation 21:3 ‘Lo, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they shall be His peoples, and God Himself shall be with them — their God

The new Jerusalem is where God dwells with his people forever, whether they are on earth with earthly bodies, born again (rests his feet) or in heaven (place of his throne) with new bodies
Ezekiel 43:7 and he said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the people of Israel forever
Isaiah 66:1 “Heaven is My throne, and earth is My footstool.


Notice there are nations outside of the new Jerusalem on earth:
Revelation 21:24-27
By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, 25and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. 26They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. 27But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Notice there are those who practice falsehood OUTSIDE of the city on earth.
Revelation 22:14-15
Blessed are those who wash their robes,c so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Nations will still need healing after the New Jerusalem comes
Revelation 22:2 And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations

**with all this being said, the preterist perspective is that Christ consummated the new Jerusalem (the body of Christ) at his 2nd coming, at the destruction of Jerusalem (Babylon), thus we forever dwell with God, whether on earth or in heaven

For it is written:
And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.”

 

[DavidPT]

This coming:
Mark 13:26 then they shall see the Son of Man coming in clouds with much power and glory



Preterists believe this is what the New Jerusalem is:

No more sea (no difference between jew and gentile)
Ephesians 2:19 Then, therefore, ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens of the saints, and of the household of God
Revelation 21:1 and the sea is not any more
The New Jerusalem/Church is the bride of the lamb
Ephesians 6:31 for this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined to his wife, and they shall be — the two — for one flesh;’ this secret is great, and I speak in regard to Christ and to the assembly;
Revelation 21:9 ‘Come, I will shew thee the bride of the Lamb — the wife,’
The apostles are the foundation of the Church/New Jerusalem
Ephesians 2:20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being chief corner-[stone]
Revelation 21:14 and the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
God dwells with the Church/New Jerusalem
Ephesians 2:22 whom also ye are builded together, for a habitation of God in the Spirit.
Revelation 21:3 ‘Lo, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they shall be His peoples, and God Himself shall be with them — their God

The new Jerusalem is where God dwells with his people forever, whether they are on earth with earthly bodies, born again (rests his feet) or in heaven (place of his throne) with new bodies
Ezekiel 43:7 and he said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the people of Israel forever
Isaiah 66:1 “Heaven is My throne, and earth is My footstool.


Notice there are nations outside of the new Jerusalem on earth:
Revelation 21:24-27
By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, 25and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. 26They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. 27But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Notice there are those who practice falsehood OUTSIDE of the city on earth.
Revelation 22:14-15
Blessed are those who wash their robes,c so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Nations will still need healing after the New Jerusalem comes
Revelation 22:2 And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations

**with all this being said, the preterist perspective is that Christ consummated the new Jerusalem (the body of Christ) at his 2nd coming, at the destruction of Jerusalem (Babylon), thus we forever dwell with God, whether on earth or in heaven

For it is written:
And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.”

In order to understand where you are coming from, I first need to be on the same page with you about which form of preterism you are meaning here? There is full preterism and there is partial. Which one are you meaning here? Is the 2nd coming to you still in the future, or do you think it already happened---full preterism?

 

[claninja]

In order to understand where you are coming from, I first need to be on the same page with you about which form of preterism you are meaning here? There is full preterism and there is partial. Which one are you meaning here? Is the 2nd coming to you still in the future, or do you think it already happened---full preterism?

Partial preterism is really just another term for amil, IMO. This is the full preterists perspective.

 

[DavidPT]

Partial preterism is really just another term for amil, IMO. This is the full preterists perspective.

I can't say I grasp full preterism then. If Christ has already returned, thus no return still in the future, how does a resurrection of the dead involving those who have died in our lifetimes, as an example, ever occur?

 

[claninja]

I can't say I grasp full preterism then. If Christ has already returned, thus no return still in the future, how does a resurrection of the dead involving those who have died in our lifetimes, as an example, ever occur?

This is the resurrection:
2 Corinthians 5:1-4 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life

1 Corinthians 15:54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”h

The resurrection was Paul's hope
Acts 24:15 and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked

The full preterist does not believe in dualism or an immortal soul trapped in a body that is released upon death. The full preterist believes the resurrection is the hope. Prior to Christ, the dead were laid to rest in sheol, not to enter the presence of God. When Christ died, He saved men from their sins and began the process of restoration by the sending the holy spirit. The coming of Christ in judgment on Israel in 70ad, effectively ended the old obsolete covenant, which ended the power of the sin, through Christ. (For the power of sin is the law: 1 Corinthians 15:56)

Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

1 Peter 1:5 This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time

The destruction of Jerusalem/the prostitute/Babylon brought in the marriage supper
Revelation 19:2,7 He has condemned the great prostitute who corrupted the earth by her adulteries.
He has avenged on her the blood of his servants.” Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory,
for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready;

Matthew 22:7-10 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.

The destruction of the earthly tabernacle, while the new covenant had been established in Christ's blood, revealed the way to heaven.
Hebrews 9:8-9 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle is still standing. **This is an illustration for the present time

Now we come to where preterists have a difference in belief

1.) When the Christian physically dies, they are instantly in the presence of the Father in heaven (The resurrection). "in the twinkle of an eye"
Revelation 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”

OR

2.) The Christian never dies spiritually and goes directly to heaven upon physical death, thus not needing a resurrection, as they will never go to sheol. Those that needed the resurrection were those who died before Christ and went to sheol.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die(OT saints); and whoever lives by believing in me will never die (NT saints). Do you believe this?”

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life

 

[parousia70]

The preterist position will be shown to be completely false when the Lord returns and the DOTL judgements fall on the wicked-and those holding such view points.

Contrary to your assertion here, understanding and accepting the CORRECT eschatology has absolutely ZERO bearing on one's Salvation status.

 

[DamianWarS]

Yes. So?
What does that have to do with my question you quoted?

What is your answer to my question you quoted?

The question is pertaining to state of Jesus glorified body. Mat 18:20 is a quote from Jesus before his resurrection, Thomas feeling the scars of Jesus is post-resurrection. Which of these best reveals to us Jesus glorified flesh?

 

[DamianWarS]

The end of Judiasm came. It definately came. When did Jesus speak in layered riddles. He actually said he taught openly. He did speak in parables but those are not layered riddles. He even explained many of them and there was one meaning altogether. The end of that age came and it came with fire and destructiong. The Gospel was preached to the known world and the end came. When Paul wrote that the end had not yet come, it hadn't at that point in time.

in that His parables had surface meanings, meanings that was explained by Jesus and further means that can only be grasped if you know the entire gospel

 

[Dorothy Mae]

in that His parables had surface meanings, meanings that was explained by Jesus and further means that can only be grasped if you know the entire gospel

He explained his parables to his disciples and thoroughly. I doubt you understand them better than they did.

 

[DamianWarS]

He explained his parables to his disciples and thoroughly. I doubt you understand them better than they did.

Yet we are all here debating the words of Christ as to when the end will come.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yet we are all here debating the words of Christ as to when the end will come.

The parables about the end of that age we’re about the Jewish rejection of the Messiah and judgement. I’d have to think about it more though. He did tell them about after that time too. People who want to debate but never come to knowledge debate a lot.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Are you saying that revelation is a new prophecy in addition to the OT?

Daniel 9 prophecies as far as 70 AD

revelation prophecies all the way to the end of earth time on final judgment day.

 

[Erik Nelson]

When Jesus comes he punishes those who did not believe or obey God with eternal destruction. If there is another war (gog-magog) AFTER the millennium, where do these unbelievers come from, if God destroys unbelievers when he comes?
1 Thessalonians 2:7-10
This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed.

When Jesus comes, the resurrection occurs:
1 Corinthians 15:23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him
1 thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first

The resurrection is the defeat of the death, which is the last enemy:
1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

If Jesus comes BEFORE the millennium, death is not the last enemy. However, if Jesus comes AFTER the millennium, the destruction of Satan, Gog-magog, then death is the last enemy.

so then

1 Thess 2 = 1 Thess 4 = 1 Cor 15 = Rev 20:9+

 

[parousia70]

The question is pertaining to state of Jesus glorified body. Mat 18:20 is a quote from Jesus before his resurrection, Thomas feeling the scars of Jesus is post-resurrection. Which of these best reveals to us Jesus glorified flesh?

Neither.
I contend Jesus was not raised in His glorified Body, it was the self-same body that hung on the cross and was laid in the tomb. He Did not receive His glorified Body until Acts 1:9

John himself, who witnessed His post resurrection, pre ascension Body first hand with His own eyes, Indicates that He had still NOT seen His Glorified Body:

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

At this point, after the Ascension, John is clear that He had NOT seen Jesus "as He is" presently, so, some sort of Appreciable Change to Jesus' body took place AFTER John last saw Him in the flesh.

I contend that "appreciable change" was the Glorification of His Body, The returning of His body back to the condition it was in before the foundation of the world, and it took place the moment the Cloud received Him out of their sight.

As to the timing of Christ's glorification, we have the following scriptures:

John 7.39. 'But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.'

Here we see that the spirit would be given when Jesus was glorified. During the forty days after his resurrection, the HS was not given. Only after the ascension was the HS given.

John 12.16. 'These things His disciples did not understand at the first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things were written of Him, and that they had done these things to Him.'

In the context of this verse Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the donkey and the people cheered. This, again, was only understood by them after his ascension and not during the 40 days.

John 17.24. ' "Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world." '

Here, Jesus expressly declared that the disciples would 'behold [His] glory' when they were with him where he was. This was not referring anytime on earth, but must be referring to after his ascension.

I contend Jesus was NOT resurrected in His Glorified Body, He was resurrected in the Self same Body that hung on the cross and Had no different supernatural powers or attributes to it than He had before the Crucifixion (save the fact it could no longer be put to death)

 

[parousia70]

The question is pertaining to state of Jesus glorified body. Mat 18:20 is a quote from Jesus before his resurrection, Thomas feeling the scars of Jesus is post-resurrection. Which of these best reveals to us Jesus glorified flesh?

And you still haven't answered my original question... When Jesus Said "when two or three are gathered in my name, THERE I AM in their Midst..." Do you contend he is there in the flesh with them?

 

[Erik Nelson]

I contend Jesus was not raised in His glorified Body, it was the self-same body that hung on the cross and was laid in the tomb. He Did not receive His glorified Body until Acts 1:9

John himself, who witnessed His post resurrection, pre ascension Body first hand with His own eyes, Indicates that He had still NOT seen His Glorified Body:

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

At this point, after the Ascension, John is clear that He had NOT seen Jesus "as He is" presently, so, some sort of Appreciable Change to Jesus' body took place AFTER John last saw Him in the flesh.

I contend that "appreciable change" was the Glorification of His Body, The returning of His body back to the condition it was in before the foundation of the world, and it took place the moment the Cloud received Him out of their sight.

As to the timing of Christ's glorification, we have the following scriptures:

John 7.39. 'But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.'

Here we see that the spirit would be given when Jesus was glorified. During the forty days after his resurrection, the HS was not given. Only after the ascension was the HS given.

John 12.16. 'These things His disciples did not understand at the first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things were written of Him, and that they had done these things to Him.'

In the context of this verse Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the donkey and the people cheered. This, again, was only understood by them after his ascension and not during the 40 days.

John 17.24. ' "Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world." '

Here, Jesus expressly declared that the disciples would 'behold [His] glory' when they were with him where he was. This was not referring anytime on earth, but must be referring to after his ascension.

I contend Jesus was NOT resurrected in His Glorified Body, He was resurrected in the Self same Body that hung on the cross and Had no different supernatural powers or attributes to it than He had before the Crucifixion (save the fact it could no longer be put to death)

John 16:7

note, according to ancient middle east custom, if a city welcomed a conquering king with open arms, he would enter the city on a donkey = triumphal entry into Jerusalem

but if he had to fight his way in, he'd parade through on a horse = Rev 19