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When do the last days end?

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Erik Nelson

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Yes we are talking about Matthew chapter 24. The disciples asked TWO (2) questions at the same time. The entire chapter, the entire teaching of Jesus answers BOTH of these questions at the SAME time. One question has to do with the Temple In Jersalam. The other question talks about the end of the Church age.

"Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

Jesus said: "37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man". Now you try to tell me you are not talking about the words of Jesus but this is the word of Jesus and He is talking about the days of Noah and how that relates to the future and the coming of the Son of Man.

We know that in the days of Noah the world was baptized or cleansed by water. At the end of this age we know that the world will be cleansed with fire. Even this has already begun with the fires in the State of California and in the west. We are told that. One third of the earth will be burned with fire. Rev 8:7 " So a third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up"

All scriptures contain types, shadows, symbols, and similitudes of Jesus Christ. Jesus would teach us how to understand and interpret the words we read in our Bible. You can take classes at your Bible college. You can listen to teachings on YouTube or you can do a google search and learn the rules for Bible interpretation and how to understand the teachings of Jesus. Or you could even find some Ebooks that can help you with this. There use to be a lot of referance books written.

Each generation has to do all they can to help the next generation. Look at people like Ussher. He spent his whole life to study history. Then he wrote ONE book on the history of the world. A book we still use today. So his whole life work could be summed up into one book. Or someone like Strong. His whole lifes work is contained in one book that we still use on the internet today. So past generation has a responsibility to help this generation.

In Heaven the people who wrote the Bible for us wonder more about us then we do about them. Because they were talking to us before we were even born. So now that we are in the world and we are living out the words God give them to record they find this amazing and they praise God all the more for the wonderful work He did in and through them. Although they do not understand why more people do not listen to do the word of God. As we know there are many that hear but not as may that are doers of the word of God give to us. Perhaps a part of the reason is people do not understand the shadows and the types and how to apply the word of God to our life.

I read Cahn's book: "Paradigm". It took me three days to read this book. The reason is so I can help people to understand how the stories we read in the Bible applies to us today. Cahn does a real good job of explaining all of that but it takes a bit of effort to read his book and to understand how this all works.
so the second coming of the son of man = fire from Heaven = revelation 20:9

because we know from 2 Peter 3 that the world is now reserved unto fire, earth has reservations for Rev 20:9 Biblically soon
Rome's attack on Israel is the days of vengeance that fulfills ALL that is written. Therefore, Gog and magog attacking Israel must be fulfilled sometime prior to or at Rome attacking Israel. Otherwise, how could there more attacking Israel after that, if it fulfills ALL that is written?

Luke 21:22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written
revelation wasn't written yet when Jesus spoke those words

70 AD did completely fulfill all of Daniel 9 in the OT

revelation is NT
 
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Erik Nelson

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Yes we are talking about Matthew chapter 24. The disciples asked TWO (2) questions at the same time. The entire chapter, the entire teaching of Jesus answers BOTH of these questions at the SAME time. One question has to do with the Temple In Jersalam. The other question talks about the end of the Church age.

"Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

Jesus said: "37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man". Now you try to tell me you are not talking about the words of Jesus but this is the word of Jesus and He is talking about the days of Noah and how that relates to the future and the coming of the Son of Man.

We know that in the days of Noah the world was baptized or cleansed by water. At the end of this age we know that the world will be cleansed with fire. Even this has already begun with the fires in the State of California and in the west. We are told that. One third of the earth will be burned with fire. Rev 8:7 " So a third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up"

All scriptures contain types, shadows, symbols, and similitudes of Jesus Christ. Jesus would teach us how to understand and interpret the words we read in our Bible. You can take classes at your Bible college. You can listen to teachings on YouTube or you can do a google search and learn the rules for Bible interpretation and how to understand the teachings of Jesus. Or you could even find some Ebooks that can help you with this. There use to be a lot of referance books written.

Each generation has to do all they can to help the next generation. Look at people like Ussher. He spent his whole life to study history. Then he wrote ONE book on the history of the world. A book we still use today. So his whole life work could be summed up into one book. Or someone like Strong. His whole lifes work is contained in one book that we still use on the internet today. So past generation has a responsibility to help this generation.

In Heaven the people who wrote the Bible for us wonder more about us then we do about them. Because they were talking to us before we were even born. So now that we are in the world and we are living out the words God give them to record they find this amazing and they praise God all the more for the wonderful work He did in and through them. Although they do not understand why more people do not listen to do the word of God. As we know there are many that hear but not as may that are doers of the word of God give to us. Perhaps a part of the reason is people do not understand the shadows and the types and how to apply the word of God to our life.

I read Cahn's book: "Paradigm". It took me three days to read this book. The reason is so I can help people to understand how the stories we read in the Bible applies to us today. Cahn does a real good job of explaining all of that but it takes a bit of effort to read his book and to understand how this all works.
so the second coming of the son of man = fire from Heaven = revelation 20:9

because we know from 2 Peter 3 that the world is now reserved unto fire, earth has reservations for Rev 20:9 Biblically soon
 
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Erik Nelson

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John is slipping in historical references into his visions from God?



Does this great battle occur before or after Christ's coming?
the second coming = revelation 20:9 when fire from Heaven baptismally cleanses earth, defeating Gog and Magog
 
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DamianWarS

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Yes we are talking about Matthew chapter 24. The disciples asked TWO (2) questions at the same time. The entire chapter, the entire teaching of Jesus answers BOTH of these questions at the SAME time. One question has to do with the Temple In Jersalam. The other question talks about the end of the Church age.

"Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

Jesus said: "37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man". Now you try to tell me you are not talking about the words of Jesus but this is the word of Jesus and He is talking about the days of Noah and how that relates to the future and the coming of the Son of Man.

We know that in the days of Noah the world was baptized or cleansed by water. At the end of this age we know that the world will be cleansed with fire. Even this has already begun with the fires in the State of California and in the west. We are told that. One third of the earth will be burned with fire. Rev 8:7 " So a third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up"

All scriptures contain types, shadows, symbols, and similitudes of Jesus Christ. Jesus would teach us how to understand and interpret the words we read in our Bible. You can take classes at your Bible college. You can listen to teachings on YouTube or you can do a google search and learn the rules for Bible interpretation and how to understand the teachings of Jesus. Or you could even find some Ebooks that can help you with this. There use to be a lot of referance books written.

Each generation has to do all they can to help the next generation. Look at people like Ussher. He spent his whole life to study history. Then he wrote ONE book on the history of the world. A book we still use today. So his whole life work could be summed up into one book. Or someone like Strong. His whole lifes work is contained in one book that we still use on the internet today. So past generation has a responsibility to help this generation.

In Heaven the people who wrote the Bible for us wonder more about us then we do about them. Because they were talking to us before we were even born. So now that we are in the world and we are living out the words God give them to record they find this amazing and they praise God all the more for the wonderful work He did in and through them. Although they do not understand why more people do not listen to do the word of God. As we know there are many that hear but not as may that are doers of the word of God give to us. Perhaps a part of the reason is people do not understand the shadows and the types and how to apply the word of God to our life.

I read Cahn's book: "Paradigm". It took me three days to read this book. The reason is so I can help people to understand how the stories we read in the Bible applies to us today. Cahn does a real good job of explaining all of that but it takes a bit of effort to read his book and to understand how this all works.
Thanks for all that... back to the original thought, could not the 70 AD event of Jerusalem also be a shadow for a larger event, could not the known "world" be a shadow for the entire world in the context of spreading the Gospel. And back to my original post, it is not the end yet because not everyone is reached
 
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Davy

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If the Gog-magog war is prior to the millennial (last days) according to Ezekiel 39, how come it occurs after the millennium in revelation?

Revelation 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle.

Because the one in Rev.20 at the end of the future Millennium is a different one.

The Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog gives specific nation alignments, alignments we can see being fulfilled right now. The Gog/Magog at the end of the future thousand years is only being used as a general label for Satan's hosts.
 
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claninja

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They are separate attacks. This is made clear by the disposal of the bodies; firstly by carrion birds and their completed burial after seven months.
The attack by armies from every nation against Jesus; near the end of His Millennium reign, will be totally burned up by fire from heaven. Gog/ Magog is just used there as a metaphor for a huge army.

When Jesus comes he punishes those who did not believe or obey God with eternal destruction. If there is another war (gog-magog) AFTER the millennium, where do these unbelievers come from, if God destroys unbelievers when he comes?
1 Thessalonians 2:7-10
This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed.

When Jesus comes, the resurrection occurs:
1 Corinthians 15:23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him
1 thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first

The resurrection is the defeat of the death, which is the last enemy:
1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

If Jesus comes BEFORE the millennium, death is not the last enemy. However, if Jesus comes AFTER the millennium, the destruction of Satan, Gog-magog, then death is the last enemy.
 
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claninja

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Because the one in Rev.20 at the end of the future Millennium is a different one.

The Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog gives specific nation alignments, alignments we can see being fulfilled right now. The Gog/Magog at the end of the future thousand years is only being used as a general label for Satan's hosts.

When Jesus comes he punishes those who did not believe or obey God with eternal destruction. If there is another war (gog-magog) AFTER the millennium, where do these unbelievers come from, if God destroys unbelievers when he comes?
1 Thessalonians 2:7-10
This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed.

When Jesus comes, the resurrection occurs:
1 Corinthians 15:23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him
1 thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first

The resurrection is the defeat of the death, which is the last enemy:
1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

If Jesus comes BEFORE the millennium, death is not the last enemy. However, if Jesus comes AFTER the millennium, the destruction of Satan, Gog-magog, then death is the last enemy.
 
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Davy

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When Jesus comes he punishes those who did not believe or obey God with eternal destruction.


That statement is not really true.

Zechariah 14 hints that only a portion of the armies coming against Jerusalem on the last day will be destroyed; the rest of them will be required to come up to Jerusalem from year to year to worship The King, The LORD of hosts, and keep the feast of tabernacles.

And the nations of unsaved will still... exist after Christ's return. I don't know where you got the idea they don't. This too is shown towards the end of Zechariah 14, which is a chapter covering mostly Millennium timing.


Furthermore, Rev.20 shows the existence of nations still existing, for where do those nations come from that Satan is loosed to go deceive one final time? They are still there on earth.

You'd be better off going back and doing more OT study of the prophets along with Rev.20 to understand this better, instead of heeding those you've been listening to.
 
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parousia70

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Did Thomas not feel the scars and torn flesh of Christ?

Yes. So?
What does that have to do with my question you quoted?

What is your answer to my question you quoted?
 
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parousia70

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This is a rude and nasty accusation.
The reality is that you can't prove that Revelation was written before 70 AD. So to demand someone to prove it was written after 70 AD, is quite unreasonable.

So you would agree it is also quite unreasonable to state as proven fact that is was penned after 70 AD then, as oldrunner did?

Or is it perfectly fine in your book to demand the rest of us accept the late date THEORY as fact, the way oldrunner has? (I couldn't help but notice you didn't jump on him and admonish him for His demand, only me for mine..)

But from the evidence we do have, especially the fact that Revelation just does not relate to events of 70 to 135 AD and describes events that simple have not occurred yet, then the 90-95 AD date for John writing Revelation, is more probable.

The vast majority of Published scholars prefer the early date, and the external evidence for the late date rests SOLELY on one spurious claim from Irenaeus who also claimed Christ lived to be 50 years old. People cite Irenaeus SOLELY because of His small degree of separation from an Apostle, which they believe somehow guarantees his accuracy, but we can see from His other errors, and the fact that many of the apostles own flocks drifted into apostasy themselves, that this claim is warrantless.

The internal evidence fully supports the pre 70 date.

This, of course, has been hashed out time and again here on CF.
 
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parousia70

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That statement is not really true.

Zechariah 14 hints that only a portion of the armies coming against Jerusalem on the last day will be destroyed; the rest of them will be required to come up to Jerusalem from year to year to worship The King, The LORD of hosts, and keep the feast of tabernacles.


You want us to believe that the Glorified Christ will one day sit on a physical throne in a brick and Mortar temple in Jerusalem and require Human beings to be physically circumcised and render Blood animal sacrifices directly at his feet for the atonement of their sins and acceptance by Him?

Such "backward redemption" would be unrecognizable to the Apostles and was considered to be a falling away from Christ and an anathema to the true faith.

You'd do well going back and studying the Book of Hebrews.
 
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parousia70

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Yes we are talking about Matthew chapter 24. The disciples asked TWO (2) questions at the same time. The entire chapter, the entire teaching of Jesus answers BOTH of these questions at the SAME time. One question has to do with the Temple In Jersalam. The other question talks about the end of the Church age.

1) Where in Matt 24 do you assert Jesus answers their Question about WHEN the temple would fall?

2) Hos is it the apostles could have been asking about the end of the Church age when they Had no Idea the Church age was even going to come into existence?

How could they ask about the end of an age they had no idea was even coming?
 
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claninja

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That statement is not really true.

Actually it is, and I got if from Jesus. Jesus states when he comes he repays each one for what he has done:
Matthew 16:17 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
Revelation 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.

According to Paul, when are those who did not believe punished?
2 thessalonians 1:7-8 when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus

And the nations of unsaved will still... exist after Christ's return. I don't know where you got the idea they don't. This too is shown towards the end of Zechariah 14, which is a chapter covering mostly Millennium timing.

Furthermore, Rev.20 shows the existence of nations still existing, for where do those nations come from that Satan is loosed to go deceive one final time? They are still there on earth.

As someone who leans towards preterism, I too believe that unbelieving people exist after the coming of Christ.

You'd be better off going back and doing more OT study of the prophets along with Rev.20 to understand this better, instead of heeding those you've been listening to.

Right back at ya Davy. We should all be studying the OT as much as the NT.
 
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parousia70

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Thanks for all that... back to the original thought, could not the 70 AD event of Jerusalem also be a shadow for a larger event, could not the known "world" be a shadow for the entire world in the context of spreading the Gospel.

The only issue with that is OT Shadows typified NT Fulfillments, NT Fulfillments do not, in turn, typify future greater fulfillment... Does Christs Birth Typify some future Virgin Birth? Does His Crucifixion, in turn, typify some future even greater sacrifices than His?

And back to my original post, it is not the end yet because not everyone is reached

If we are to believe scripture, that process was complete in the first century, no later than the mid 60's AD:

Colossians 1:5-6 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

Colossians 1:23
if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken ofthroughout the whole world.

Romans 16:25-26 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith;


Men from every nation heard Peter preach the gospel (Acts 2:5,9-11,14); and Peter said it was published throughout Judaea (Acts 10:37, 1 Pet.4:6). Again, Paul says he fully preached the gospel (Romans 15:19), and it appeared to all men (Titus 2:11.), and it was preached and believed on in the world (1 Timothy 3:16). In Romans 10:18, the word "world" is oikumene, same as Mat.24:24, and the word "earth" is ge, same as Acts 1:8. In Romans 16:25-26, the word "nations" is ethnos, same as Mark 13:10. In Colossians 1:6, the word "world" is kosmos, same as Mark 16:15. In Colossians 1:23, the word "creature" is ktisis, same as Mark 16:15. Hebrews 4:2 says the gospel was preached.

The argument has been raised: "The apostles were saying that the Gospel had been preached to the world as they knew it, but the Gospel has to reach the world as we know it before Christ will return."

First, where does the Scripture speak of Christ's words being fulfilled during the twenty first century as we know it? This is the world's way of trying to make the Bible fit their view. Second, why would the apostles even mention the fact of the Gospel reaching its destination if there was no prophetic significance? All that would do is confuse those to whom they were writing. After all, their readers were perfectly aware that Christ had predicted His return once the Gospel had been preached in these areas. What other predictions were there besides those of the Lord? From the Scripture we can be certain that all these predictions regarding the destination of the Gospel were fulfilled.

Many today say that the gospel has not been preached to all the world and Matthew 24:14 has not yet been fulfilled. In Contrast, The Bible says that all the nations of the world and every creature under heaven heard the gospel preached before AD 70.

Who are you going to believe? To deny that Matthew 24:14 has was fulfilled in the 1st century when the divinely inspired apostles infallibly said it was, is to deny the clear statements of God's Holy Word; it is to call God a liar.
 
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Davy

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Actually it is, and I got if from Jesus. Jesus states when he comes he repays each one for what he has done:
Matthew 16:17 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
Revelation 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.

According to Paul, when are those who did not believe punished?
2 thessalonians 1:7-8 when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus

You don't understand the difference between this present world, and the world to come.

NO SOUL is going to perish in the "lake of fire" unto the end of Christ's future "thousand years" reign over ALL nations on earth. You didn't even both to touch... on the future existence of those nations in the Scriptures I pointed you to. You simply bypassed all that in favor of following MEN'S DOCTRINES instead.
 
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claninja

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You don't understand the difference between this present world, and the world to come.

NO SOUL is going to perish in the "lake of fire" unto the end of Christ's future "thousand years" reign over ALL nations on earth. You didn't even both to touch... on the future existence of those nations in the Scriptures I pointed you to. You simply bypassed all that in favor of following MEN'S DOCTRINES instead.

This is subjective. I could say the same about you. Let's stick to objective arguments.

Please answer the following questions:


According to Jesus, when does he repay those for what they have done?
Matthew 16:17 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
Revelation 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.

According to Paul, when are those who did not believe punished?

2 thessalonians 1:7-8 when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus





Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
 
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oldrunner

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So you would agree it is also quite unreasonable to state as proven fact that is was penned after 70 AD then, as oldrunner did?

Or is it perfectly fine in your book to demand the rest of us accept the late date THEORY as fact, the way oldrunner has? (I couldn't help but notice you didn't jump on him and admonish him for His demand, only me for mine..)



The vast majority of Published scholars prefer the early date, and the external evidence for the late date rests SOLELY on one spurious claim from Irenaeus who also claimed Christ lived to be 50 years old. People cite Irenaeus SOLELY because of His small degree of separation from an Apostle, which they believe somehow guarantees his accuracy, but we can see from His other errors, and the fact that many of the apostles own flocks drifted into apostasy themselves, that this claim is warrantless.

The internal evidence fully supports the pre 70 date.

This, of course, has been hashed out time and again here on CF.

Well here there go! :) A man often rebukes hardens his heart.

As is stated by the article, you are the one who is in error about the date of the book. A published liberal scholar is no scholar at all, IMO. The preterist position will be shown to be completely false when the Lord returns and the DOTL judgements fall on the wicked-and those holding such view points. :amen: Yeah, these same DOTL arguments that you say were all fulfilled back in the day, or 70AD.

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1552-when-was-the-book-of-revelation-written
 
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DavidPT

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You want us to believe that the Glorified Christ will one day sit on a physical throne in a brick and Mortar temple in Jerusalem and require Human beings to be physically circumcised and render Blood animal sacrifices directly at his feet for the atonement of their sins and acceptance by Him?

Such "backward redemption" would be unrecognizable to the Apostles and was considered to be a falling away from Christ and an anathema to the true faith.

You'd do well going back and studying the Book of Hebrews.


Since I'm assuming you are a reasonable person, I would think that you at least know and agree, that wherever one places the events of verse 2 in Zechariah 14, verses 16-19 are meaning after that time. If one concludes verse 2 involves 70 AD, that still places the events of verses 16-19 post 70 AD. Post 70 AD is clearly after the temple had been destroyed, thus animal sacrificing put to a halt indefinetely, and is also post the time of Jesus' death and resurrection. The texts clearly indicate those left of the nations which came against Jerusalem per verse 2, they have to come up to Jerusalem to keep the feast of tabernacles, otherwise no rain.

If you have a problem with that fitting after the 2nd coming, why don't you also have a problem with it fitting after Christ's death and resurrection, and the events of 70 AD? Why is that not equally a problem?
 
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