When do the last days end?

[DavidPT]

To the Christian who has eternal life, 100 years is barely a blip on the screen... in fact you could very well call that first 100 years of the Christian's "eternal life", it's INFANCY.

Yet not everyone who might live to the age of 100 in this present age are Christians. Some might be be, some might not be. Don't know how you can also apply that to the latter then? But that aside, anyone in this present age that sees 100, they are at the end of their lives, IOW are seen as very, very old, and certainly not youthful.

 

[Davy]

Stating Peter quotes Joel to say this (people speaking in tongues) is that (prophecy from Joel) is contradicting my self? Well then you must believe Peter was contradicting his own self as well.

You included words from Joel 2 inferring that was Peter's words. Peter was revealing the cloven tongue spoken on Pentecost as an example of Joel 2, and then he quoted Joel 2. So what's Joel 2 about? It's about the locust army God sends upon His people at the end of this world. God even calls the locusts His army in that Joel 2 chapter.

If I am contradicting myself, maybe you could answer these 2 questions?
What is the "this" of Acts 2:16 referring too?
What is the "that" of acts 2:16 referring too?
Acts 2:16 ‘But this is that which hath been spoken through the prophet Joel:

I'm not denying the manifesting of the cloven tongue on Pentecost. I'm pointing out how Peter showed it was an example of the Joel 2 prophecy, but that the Joel prophecy he quoted is actually about the tribulation timing. In that respect, Peter was revealing a major purpose of the cloven tongue being at the very end of this world.

Here's the first verse of the Joel 2 chapter where Peter quoted:

Joel 2:1
2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in My holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
KJV

That set the timing of the subject of that Joel 2 chapter being about the end of this world. The "day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand"; that's emphatic of the timing at the end of this world.

 

[DavidPT]

Rev 16:17　 The seventh poured out his bowl into the air. A loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done!"　

IMO, and I can certainly be wrong here, but this sounds a lot like the following.

Ezekiel 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

A loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done!----Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

The day whereof I have spoken, could be meaning the day of the LORD, IOW the 7 vials of wrath.

 

[Davy]

IMO, and I can certainly be wrong here, but this sounds a lot like the following.

Ezekiel 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

A loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done!----Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

The day whereof I have spoken, could be meaning the day of the LORD, IOW the 7 vials of wrath.

It is the same day and timing. The Ezekiel 39 chapter is the last chapter of this world leading into Christ's future Millennial reign which begins with description of the Millennial sanctuary in Ezekiel 40.

The 7th Vial wrath represents the cup of God's wrath poured out in final. It is poured into the 'air' because that involves the end of this present world destroyed by God's consuming fire (2 Pet.3:10; end of Heb.12; see also Isaiah 25).

The Armageddon battle is the Gog/Magog battle at the end of this present world when Jesus returns; yet not in the literal military sense. The Gog/Magog armies actually won't have a chance, as what will destroy them will be the natural powered by the supernatural (i.e., Jesus causing the great hailstones weighing a talent). It will be over at an instant.

 

[DavidPT]

I disagree, I believe God did war against those who persecuted true Israel. I believe it was by God's hand that Nero died and I believe it was by God's hand that "those who are not Israel", that persecuted true Israel (galatians 4:29-31), were destroyed.

Zechariah 14 clearly indicates this involves nations, all nations. The Romans were not nations, and certainly weren't all nations. The Romans were a nation the same way the USA is a nation and not nations instead. But throw China, Russia, Japan, etc, into the mix, now this involves nations, that being the USA, Russia, and China, etc, per this example. When we interpret things, the way they are worded in the texts, this has to matter. Zechariah would not be seeing these things involving all nations if it was only meaning 1 nation instead, in this case, the Romans. Any interpretation that sees Zechariah 14:2 involving the events of 70 AD, that interpretation couldn't possibly be correct. Too many things don't fit, some of which I already mentioned above.

Would like to add one more thing.

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.


Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

What Zechariah 14:2 seems to be referring to is this---And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. IMO anyway.

 

[DavidPT]

"Pretty clear" is not very clear, if taken in context.

Many false doctrines are built upon quoting from the less clear Old Testament scriptures that you quoted above, out of context.

Maybe these are your shortcomings? There have been plenty of folks who have studied some of these prophecies in depth, that you yourself find to be less clear, which might be perfectly clear to some of these though. Just because something might be less clear to you, that doesn't mean it's less clear to everyone else as well. That appears to be a personal problem on your part, IMO. I'm not saying I am one of these people who have studied some of these prophecies you find to be less clear, in depth, yet there are obviously some who have. You might find these type among Scholars, etc, not to mention, among common folk as well(as opposed to Scholars), maybe such as some who frequent this board.

 

[oldrunner]

IMO, and I can certainly be wrong here, but this sounds a lot like the following.

Ezekiel 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

A loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done!----Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

The day whereof I have spoken, could be meaning the day of the LORD, IOW the 7 vials of wrath.

Yep! Only one Day of The Lord talked about in the Bible, and when it's done, it's done! This is not talking about the end of the Mill Kingdom, cause God promised only once more. He just destroys them with fire then.

Heb 12:26　 whose voice shook the earth then, but now he has promised, saying, "Yet once more I will shake not only the earth, but also the heavens."　

Heb 12:27　 This phrase, "Yet once more", signifies the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that have been made, that those things which are not shaken may remain.　

Heb 12:28　 Therefore, receiving a Kingdom that can’t be shaken, let’s have grace, through which we serve God acceptably, with reverence and awe,　

Heb 12:29　 for our God is a consuming fire.

 

[BABerean2]

Yep! Only one Day of The Lord talked about in the Bible, and when it's done, it's done! This is not talking about the end of the Mill Kingdom, cause God promised only once more. He just destroys them with fire then.

And when does the fire come?

2Th 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 1:9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2Th 1:10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

.

 

[oldrunner]

The interesting thing is the Book of Revelation was written after the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD. It claims for itself that it is a book of prophecy, and it is unsealed-meaning we can understand it- and should seek to understand it, and the things written therein could happen in any generation from when it was written forward.

In Chapter 11, we have John measuring the Temple, altar, and those who worship there. And he is told not to measure the outer court cause it will be trampled down by the gentiles for 3.5 years. And to make sure we got the fact it was the real literal Temple, and a real literal future Jerusalem he was talking about, he says-where their Lord was crucified. Oh yeah, so this must be talking about literal guys walking around dressed like OT prophets too.

Now we have those who disregard this-who have somehow been enlightened with the truth that only they can understand, who disregard John says Jesus will destroy all the armies of the world gathered around Israel- when He takes possession of the Kingdom in Rev 19. Who also disregard there will be a literal 1000 year reign on the Earth after (spoken of like 6 times) when near the end of the 1000 year reign, there will be multitudes of unbelievers that will come against a literal Earthly Mt. Zion-where the literal Jesus will have His seat of government reigning over mortals, and a real Temple- where literal fire will come down form God in Heaven and destroy them.

But they like to confirm there is a real Heavenly Jerusalem? Kinda sounds fishy, IMO. This is the verses they need to heed:


Rev 22:18　 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book, if anyone adds to them, may God add to him the plagues which are written in this book.　

Rev 22:19　 If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, may God take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book.　

 

[claninja]

You included words from Joel 2 inferring that was Peter's words.

Peter quoted Joel

Peter was revealing the cloven tongue spoken on Pentecost as an example of Joel 2, and then he quoted Joel 2

Not sure what you mean by "example". Peter clearly states "THIS is THAT which was spoke by Joel.
Acts 2:16 But this is that which hath been spoken through the prophet Joel:

But it sounds like your saying Peter didn't mean 'this is that', he meant 'this is like that'.

So what's Joel 2 about? It's about the locust army God sends upon His people at the end of this world. God even calls the locusts His army in that Joel 2 chapter.

Peter didn't quote the rest of Joel 2. He only quoted Joel 2:28-32

I'm not denying the manifesting of the cloven tongue on Pentecost. I'm pointing out how Peter showed it was an example of the Joel 2 prophecy, but that the Joel prophecy he quoted is actually about the tribulation timing. In that respect, Peter was revealing a major purpose of the cloven tongue being at the very end of this world.

Here's the first verse of the Joel 2 chapter where Peter quoted:

Joel 2:1
2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in My holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
KJV

That set the timing of the subject of that Joel 2 chapter being about the end of this world. The "day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand"; that's emphatic of the timing at the end of this world.

So let me just clarify, you believe God will pour out his spirit twice? once during Peter's time and once during the great tribulation? Is there any NT references to verify this?

 

[Oldmantook]

The teaching of a millennium was abrogated by the church long ago. The Nicene Creed was amended to reflect that Christ's kingdom "shall have no end".

That is scripturally untrue as the age of the millennium is 1,000 years but Christ's kingdom does indeed have an end. "Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power." 1 Cor 15:24 Christ's kingdom ends but the Father's kingdom does not end.

 

[DavidPT]

That is scripturally untrue as the age of the millennium is 1,000 years but Christ's kingdom does indeed have an end. "Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power." 1 Cor 15:24 Christ's kingdom ends but the Father's kingdom does not end.

I don't think it implies His kingdom has an end. I see it meaning certain things will no longer be needed at some point, such as judgment and death. That is the aspects of the kingdom that end, but not that the kingdom itself ends since that would contradict texts already telling us His kingdom is everlasting.

 

[DavidPT]

So let me just clarify, you believe God will pour out his spirit twice? once during Peter's time and once during the great tribulation? Is there any NT references to verify this?

Where do you fit the day of the Lord per your view? That's part of the context as well.

 

[claninja]

Zechariah 14 clearly indicates this involves nations, all nations. The Romans were not nations, and certainly weren't all nations. The Romans were a nation the same way the USA is a nation and not nations instead. But throw China, Russia, Japan, etc, into the mix, now this involves nations, that being the USA, Russia, and China, etc, per this example. When we interpret things, the way they are worded in the texts, this has to matter. Zechariah would not be seeing these things involving all nations if it was only meaning 1 nation instead, in this case, the Romans. Any interpretation that sees Zechariah 14:2 involving the events of 70 AD, that interpretation couldn't possibly be correct. Too many things don't fit, some of which I already mentioned above.

That's kind of putting it in 21st century modern terms though. So I don't necessarily agree.
For example, we know Caesar didn't register the literal whole world.
Luke 2:1 In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered

If the Roman empire, was the 'whole world' then technically, yes, when Rome came against Israel, it was the 'whole world'.

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

What Zechariah 14:2 seems to be referring to is this---And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. IMO anyway.

It appears we agree that Zechariah 14 refers to the olivet discourse. We just disagree on the timing.

 

[DavidPT]

That's kind of putting it in 21st century modern terms though. So I don't necessarily agree.
For example, we know Caesar didn't register the literal whole world.
Luke 2:1 In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered

If the Roman empire, was the 'whole world' then technically, yes, when Rome came against Israel, it was the 'whole world'.



It appears we agree that Zechariah 14 refers to the olivet discourse. We just disagree on the timing.

Maybe the following will settle the dispute?

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.


Did these things in this verse happen to any Romans in the first century? The above happens to those who are of the nations coming against Jerusalem. How do you even entertain interpretations like yours when interpretations like yours are being made nonsense out of by verses, such as verse 12, if your interpretations are assumed to be correct?

 

[claninja]

Maybe the following will settle the dispute?

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.


Did these things in this verse happen to any Romans in the first century? The above happens to those who are of the nations coming against Jerusalem. How do you even entertain interpretations like yours when interpretations like yours are being made nonsense out of by verses, such as verse 12, if your interpretations are assumed to be correct?

I don't think I can settle that dispute. Men much smarter and more well versed than I have attempted. If it was settled we wouldn't be discussing this.

I would argue that either literally or spiritually, it was fulfilled before or at the destruction of Jerusalem. Can I prove? Nope. All I can do is rely on Jesus words:

Luke 21:22 this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of ALL that has been written.
Luke 21:32 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened

And to know historically the temple was destroyed and hasn't been around for the last 2000 years

 

[oldrunner]

Peter quoted Joel



Not sure what you mean by "example". Peter clearly states "THIS is THAT which was spoke by Joel.
Acts 2:16 But this is that which hath been spoken through the prophet Joel:

But it sounds like your saying Peter didn't mean 'this is that', he meant 'this is like that'.



Peter didn't quote the rest of Joel 2. He only quoted Joel 2:28-32



So let me just clarify, you believe God will pour out his spirit twice? once during Peter's time and once during the great tribulation? Is there any NT references to verify this?

That Peter quoted Joel is showing that the lasts days end with the Day of the Lord, IMO. Notice he says these signs will before the DOTL. So a partial fulfillment in Acts that awaits a probably great pouring out in the 70th week of Daniel. The DOTL didn't happen in Acts 2. Right? I mean did not Jesus close the Book/roll up the scroll in mid verse? The next big thing will be The Day of The Lord. Rescue of the righteous, judgement for the wicked-on the same day.


Luk 4:18　 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed,　

Luk 4:19　 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."　

Luk 4:20　 And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him.　

Luk 4:21　 And he began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."　

And what is next?


Isa 61:2　 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, And the day of vengeance of our God; To comfort all who mourn,

This is it!

Isa 34:8　 For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, The year of recompense for the cause of Zion.　

When you compare these signs, Jesus points out they will happen immediately after the Great Tribulation, and just before the sign of His coming/Parousia. Rescue and judgement on the same day. Then comes the DOTL starting with the Trumpets and ending with the bowls, the destruction of the Armies of the world is the last thing before Jesus takes possession of the Kingdom. Notice they are hiding here-in Rev 6, but ready to fight in Rev 19. Two different time-frames, two different events being spoken of.

Revelation was written in the 90s AD, after the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. So therefore, it is not totally fulfilled yet. That being Joel and the Olivette Discourse.


Rev 6:12　 When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood,　

Rev 6:13　 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale.　

Rev 6:14　 The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.　

Rev 6:15　 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains,　

Rev 6:16　 calling to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb,　

Rev 6:17　 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"　(This meaning it is impending, going to happen shortly-just read the Trumpets)


Mat 24:29　 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　

 

[claninja]

It is the same day and timing. The Ezekiel 39 chapter is the last chapter of this world leading into Christ's future Millennial reign which begins with description of the Millennial sanctuary in Ezekiel 40.

If the Gog-magog war is prior to the millennial (last days) according to Ezekiel 39, how come it occurs after the millennium in revelation?

Revelation 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle.

 

[claninja]

That Peter quoted Joel is showing that the lasts days end with the Day of the Lord, IMO. Notice he says these signs will before the DOTL. So a partial fulfillment in Acts that awaits a probably great pouring out in the 70th week of Daniel. The DOTL didn't happen in Acts 2. Right? I mean did not Jesus close the Book/roll up the scroll in mid verse? The next big thing will be The Day of The Lord. Rescue of the righteous, judgement for the wicked-on the same day.

I absolutely agree!

 

[oldrunner]

If the Gog-magog war is prior to the millennial (last days) according to Ezekiel 39, how come it occurs after the millennium in revelation?

Revelation 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle.

John is using a historical reference that everyone will know about. Everyone will know of the great battle because they will be burring dead bodies for seven months and they have a name that speaks the name of "Gog". And of course, the DOTL only happens once. As Hebrews points out.

So, Gog and Magog is signifying all the enemies of God, from all over the Earth at that time.


ze 39:11　 "It will come to pass in that day that I will give Gog a burial place there in Israel, the valley of those who pass by east of the sea; and it will obstruct travelers, because there they will bury Gog and all his multitude. Therefore they will call it the Valley of Hamon Gog.　

Eze 39:12　 For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the land.　

Eze 39:13　 Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified," says the Lord GOD.